Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[Simpleton]

It was inspired also by Catholic literature. Like Lumen gentium, and not to mention obviously the Scripture.

Since you advocate that Lumen Gentium supports your position maybe you could be so kind as to cite the exact parts please. As for scripture I have seen both sides use it to support their positions. I have even seen someone use the Baltimore Catechism that clearly stated that the Church is built

baltimore-catechism.com/lesson9.htm[

LESSON 9 - ON THE HOLY GHOST AND HIS DESCENT UPON THE APOSTLES](~Baltimore Catechism #3 : Lesson 9~)

Q. 448. Why are these signs not continued everywhere at the present
time?

A. These signs are not continued everywhere at the present time, because now that the Church is fully established and its divine character and power proved in other ways, such signs are no longer necessary.

Last time I checked the Baltimore Catechism was still a valid teaching tool. Has it been put on any banned books list by the Churhc?

You don’t understand how that works. Has everyone in the Catholic Church reached the highest degree of earthly perfection possible, automatically? Nope. Is everyone on earth on board with the Catholic Church? Nope. Until then, the Church needs building up. The Church is made up of members in need of sanctification.

I do understand that it is believed by Catholics that Christ founded ONE visible Church to carry out the Mission given to it by Christ to go and preach to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I understand that Catholics hold firm that their Church is the true Church and that the Holy Spirit only works in other non-Catholic Christian communities for the sole purpose of bringing them back into unity with the Catholic Church.

I do understand that it has been stated multiple times that the CCR claims they are using said gifts to build up the Catholic Church and that this was the reason for why they were given to the Catholic Church by the Holy Spirit. This however still begs the question as to why such gifts for building would also be given tot the VISIBLE Protestant Pentecostal Churches since this would give the faithful the false idea that the Protestant Pentecostal Church is just as valid as the Catholic Church since it also possess these same gifts which are apparently only given for one reason: to build Christs Church

If your saying that the gifts are given to build up the Christian body and that the Church is all Christians together then whoe cares if your Catholic or Pentecostal since the Holy Spirit apparently works in all of them and gives them all the same gifts?

 

[Tomster]

You don’t understand what the charismatic movement is. The movement is there to provide a renewed focus on the charismatic dimension of Christianity, on the charisms, and on really living out the grace of Pentecost. There have been other movements throughout church history - scriptural movements, liturgical movements, etc. These are based OFF of Catholic doctrine, trying to bring important aspects of the Church back into focus.

1. You obviously have never seriously evangelized to anyone in your life, in which case you are not living the Christian faith. The gifts are absolutely needed. You can see what the Church is saying on that matter. They are needed today.
2. Check it out yourself. Sorry, it’s a mistranslation. All other translations I’ve seen have used that adverb - not only in English, but in many other languages.
3. There is not an endemic failure to discern spirits. Bare assertion and straw man. Take a logic class.
4. Bare assertion.
5. There’s enough there that is Church teaching. Like… the Catechism, and Church documents.
6. Who has high standing with the Pope, and the ONLY ONE ALLOWED TO PREACH TO HIM. If you think you’re a better theologian than Pope Benedict, who is probably one of the most brilliant of all time…

St. Thomas Aquinas says this:

“[St. Paul] rightly divides charismata; for some belong to the perfection of knowledge, as faith, the word of wisdom, and the word of science; some belong to the confirmation of doctrine, or the grace of healing, the working of miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits; some belong to the faculty of expression, as kinds of tongues and interpretation of speeches.” St. Thomas Aquinas, ST I-II, Q. cxi, a. 4

That supports my opinion. But you know better of course than the Angelic Doctor.

 

[Tomster]

I’m curious as to why you disagree with the Popes, the Magisterium, Church documents, Doctors of the Church, Church Fathers, high standing theologians and preachers, and the charismatic movement. Why would you prefer the Holy Spirit not to do anything these days? I’m curious.

And please, some of my posts may sound heated, but I do not wish to cause offense by any means. I am under the impression that the people on this thread are intending to discuss with complete charity.

I’m curious too.

 

[vardaquinn]

The Baltimore Catechism is wrong there. That’s an indefensible claim. The signs do still occur. They are occurring now. The primitive Church indeed needed these signs more than we have at various times through out history. A handful of fishermen and tax collectors need quite a bit of spiritual “umph” to convert the entire Mediterranean world in a relatively short amount of time. However, obviously they are needed today. That’s why they are happening.

Because the Protestants are still part of the Church, even if separated from the visible structure. They have received the Holy Spirit in Baptism. They are forces compelling towards unity, yes. Many Protestants genuinely love Jesus, and want to let the Holy Spirit work. I truly believe the Holy Spirit will work with anyone who lets Him work.

The Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. But you can’t deny that others, though separated from the visible structure of the Catholic Church, are genuinely Christian at least by merits of their baptism.

@ justtryin: Enough of the bare assertions. You think something is misquoted? Show me. You think I’m misinterpreting something? Show me.

@ Tomster: thanks for your help.

 

[vardaquinn]

If the Church (the Mystical Body of Christ, with all its members) today is in no need of renewal, or upbuilding… that means this is as good as it gets. If this is as good as it gets… I think I’m becoming a Jew.

 

[justtryin]

Statements like these don’t help establish credibility for CCR either.

No, but I do have to say, it is appalling how many Traditionalists reject the Teaching of the Church in this area. Traditionalists are the last place I would expect to find cafeteria Catholics.

Well, there are some very stubborn and closed minded people that really don’t want to know… They have made up their minds they are not “Catholic” and therefore, do not belong in the Church.

I think they don’t read their catechism.

I’m seeing you bordering on heresy there, my friend.

So… if you don’t accept that the charismatic gifts are a normal part of the Church’s life, and you disagree with the Pope’s here, then you might try going off and founding your own Church. But that’s not how we do things here in the Catholic Church. If you don’t like it, you can leave.

That supports my opinion. But you know better of course than the Angelic Doctor.

 

[jmj1984]

You don’t understand what the charismatic movement is. The movement is there to provide a renewed focus on the charismatic dimension of Christianity, on the charisms, and on really living out the grace of Pentecost. There have been other movements throughout church history - scriptural movements, liturgical movements, etc. These are based OFF of Catholic doctrine, trying to bring important aspects of the Church back into focus.

1. You obviously have never seriously evangelized to anyone in your life, in which case you are not living the Christian faith. The gifts are absolutely needed. You can see what the Church is saying on that matter. They are needed today.
2. Check it out yourself. Sorry, it’s a mistranslation. All other translations I’ve seen have used that adverb - not only in English, but in many other languages.
3. There is not an endemic failure to discern spirits. Bare assertion and straw man. Take a logic class.
4. Bare assertion.
5. There’s enough there that is Church teaching. Like… the Catechism, and Church documents.
6. Who has high standing with the Pope, and the ONLY ONE ALLOWED TO PREACH TO HIM. If you think you’re a better theologian than Pope Benedict, who is probably one of the most brilliant of all time…

St. Thomas Aquinas says this:

“[St. Paul] rightly divides charismata; for some belong to the perfection of knowledge, as faith, the word of wisdom, and the word of science; some belong to the confirmation of doctrine, or the grace of healing, the working of miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits; some belong to the faculty of expression, as kinds of tongues and interpretation of speeches.” St. Thomas Aquinas, ST I-II, Q. cxi, a. 4

That supports my opinion. But you know better of course than the Angelic Doctor.

Go and read aquinas, you would benefit, what does your quote prove? That these gifts exist and? Does it say that people should speak gibberish or be disorderly in church? No. So please don’t insult The Angelic Doctor by using him to support your point of view.

As for the rest of your argments they are full of suppositions, ad hominem attacks and untruths, not even worth addressing.

 

[jmj1984]

No, you’re picking and choosing what’s part of Catholic teaching and what’s not. That’s called cafeteria Catholicism. Like a buffet. You like some aspects, but not all. It doesn’t work that way, it’s called “voluntary doubt” From the Catechism:

There doesn’t need to be an encyclical on the matter.

There are. Would you look at the links we provide?

Charasmatic catholicism is not a doctrine or de fide, no one has to believe it and you will not find one authoritative document saying otherwise The links you’ve provided are not authoritative teaching, they are speeches not encyclicals.

 

[jmj1984]

I will condemn things he said in that book. They’re wrong. Yep. He argues through much of the book that “enthusiasm” is always associated with heresy, and looks rather poorly on it. Though he wavers a bit in the end. Enthusiasm itself is good. Look at the root word: en-theo (to be filled with God).

The movements are right in encouraging people to seek the gifts, and St. John of the Cross would agree. That’s necessary for them to work.

Nope, speaking in tongues is not in the same category of consolation. I’m usually extremely “dry” when I pray in tongues and feel nothing. It’s a specific gift for a purpose.

So it’s sound Catholic Theology if the Pope says it, but sound heresy if the charismatics say it? Even if it’s the same thing?

Well, if “non-Catholic assemblies” meant getting together in dorm rooms and praying… and that’s sinful… However, it is allowed now. So it’s not a matter of faith and morals, merely discipline. So that’s a lower case t for tradition, not an upper case T. You obviously don’t understand that essential distinction.

Right so he’s just wrong

And you’re accepting that at the time these actions were not legal and condemned by canon law? Thats makes for a refreshing change

 

[jmj1984]

Neither Augustine nor John of the Cross are condemning anything. Augustine is questioning why tongues isn’t commonplace at his time.

They’re not condemning anything, you can read right? Because Augustine clearly explains why these gifts are not necessary and dont occur, and St john of the Cross is clearly condemning those that don’t properly discern spirits.

Knox is wrong if he thinks tongues is always a sign of diabolical possession. If that’s the case, Mary, the disciples of Christ, and the majority of the early Christians were all demonically possessed.

I don’t think he’s saying that it always is, but that it is a recognised sign of demonic possession ergo we can be suspicious of it occuring otherwise.

 

[jmj1984]

I’m curious as to why you disagree with the Popes, the Magisterium, Church documents, Doctors of the Church, Church Fathers, high standing theologians and preachers, and the charismatic movement. Why would you prefer the Holy Spirit not to do anything these days? I’m curious.

And please, some of my posts may sound heated, but I do not wish to cause offense by any means. I am under the impression that the people on this thread are intending to discuss with complete charity.

I ask you the same, seeing as none of the sources you cite support you authoratively but rather numerous sources condemn the hallmarks of the charasmatic movement.

 

[Melchior_1]

Charasmatic catholicism is not a doctrine or de fide, no one has to believe it and you will not find one authoritative document saying otherwise The links you’ve provided are not authoritative teaching, they are speeches not encyclicals.

I hope you realize that most of the arguments you’re saying can be applied to traditional practices and disciplines?

 

[Simpleton]

The Baltimore Catechism is wrong there. That’s an indefensible claim. The signs do still occur. They are occurring now. The primitive Church indeed needed these signs more than we have at various times through out history. A handful of fishermen and tax collectors need quite a bit of spiritual “umph” to convert the entire Mediterranean world in a relatively short amount of time. However, obviously they are needed today. That’s why they are happening.

Hey now back up a little bit. You said the catechism is wrong? Is there a authoritative Church document stating that this passage was incorrect in the Baltimore Catechism?

Also you still havent shown why these building gifts are needed today other than your reasonsing is becuase there are still a lot of non-Catholics in the world. Yet this excuse cant be seen as the same as why the Holy Spirit gave these gifts in the begining. Back then the Church was hardly visible from a moutain top and so the ealry Christians would use these to build the visible structure of the Church: the end result being the Visible Church we see today. I can valdily argue that present day non-Catholics do not need these gifts to find the Catholic Church since it is the BIGGEST VISIBLE Christian Church in the ENTIRE world! When was the last time you went up to a non-catholic and said something regarding Catholics and they responded back: “whats a catholic I have never heard of them?”

Because the Protestants are still part of the Church, even if separated from the visible structure. They have received the Holy Spirit in Baptism. They are forces compelling towards unity, yes. Many Protestants genuinely love Jesus, and want to let the Holy Spirit work. I truly believe the Holy Spirit will work with anyone who lets Him work.

Yes Protestants (the individuals) are still part of the Catholic Church however their doctrines (you know those things that are the foundation of their visible churches) aren’t Catholic at all, so I’m going to ask this again. Why would the Holy Spirit give the same gifts used to build up the VISIBLE structure of the Church to the Protestant Churches if their doctrines are contrary to the Catholic Church’s? I mean is God going through identity crises?

Can you explain why you believe the visible structure of the Catholic Church has not been built up yet? Lastly if the Protestants are already part of the Church then what part of the Church needs building? It would seem that the Church has already been built and that Catholics just need to invite their separated brethren back under its roof. This means building gifts aren’t needed but greater ones are like Charity maybe? This would leave me to conclude that anyone using building gifts is doing so incorrectly since the Church appears to already have been built.

 

[jmj1984]

I hope you realize that most of the arguments you’re saying can be applied to traditional practices and disciplines?

Actually if you want I’ll start a whole thread defending them?

 

[jmj1984]

Seeing as others have misrepresented what The Angelic Doctor has said regarding Miracles it behooves me to post in full exactly what is written in the Summa.

'**Article 1. Whether there is a gratuitous grace of working miracles?

Objection 1. It would seem that no gratuitous grace is directed to the working of miracles. For every grace puts something in the one to whom it is given (Cf. I-II, 90, 1). Now the working of miracles puts nothing in the soul of the man who receives it since miracles are wrought at the touch even of a dead body. Thus we read (2 Kings 13:21) that “some . . . cast the body into the sepulchre of Eliseus. And when it had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life, and stood upon his feet.” Therefore the working of miracles does not belong to a gratuitous grace.

Objection 2. Further, the gratuitous graces are from the Holy Ghost, according to 1 Corinthians 12:4, “There are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit.” Now the working of miracles is effected even by the unclean spirit, according to Matthew 24:24, “There shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders.” Therefore it would seem that the working of miracles does not belong to a gratuitous grace.

Objection 3. Further, miracles are divided into “signs,” “wonders” or “portents,” and “virtues.” [Cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9, where the Douay version renders ‘virtus’ by ‘power.’ The use of the word ‘virtue’ in the sense of a miracle is now obsolete, and the generic term ‘miracle’ is elsewhere used in its stead: Cf. 1 Corinthians 12:10-28; Hebrews 2:4; Acts 2:22. Therefore it is unreasonable to reckon the “working of miracles” a gratuitous grace, any more than the “working of signs” and “wonders.”

Objection 4. Further, the miraculous restoring to health is done by the power of God. Therefore the grace of healing should not be distinguished from the working of miracles.

Objection 5. Further, the working of miracles results from faith–either of the worker, according to 1 Corinthians 13:2, “If I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains,” or of other persons for whose sake miracles are wrought, according to Matthew 13:58, “And He wrought not many miracles there, because of their unbelief.” Therefore, if faith be reckoned a gratuitous grace, it is superfluous to reckon in addition the working of signs as another gratuitous grace.

On the contrary, The Apostle (1 Corinthians 12:9-10) says that among other gratuitous graces, “to another” is given “the grace of healing . . . to another, the working of miracles.”

I answer that, As stated above (Question 177, Article 1), the Holy Ghost provides sufficiently for the Church in matters profitable unto salvation, to which purpose the gratuitous graces are directed. Now just as the knowledge which a man receives from God needs to be brought to the knowledge of others through the gift of tongues and the grace of the word, so too the word uttered needs to be confirmed in order that it be rendered credible. This is done by the working of miracles, according to Mark 16:20, “And confirming the word with signs that followed”: and reasonably so. For it is natural to man to arrive at the intelligible truth through its sensible effects. Wherefore just as man led by his natural reason is able to arrive at some knowledge of God through His natural effects, so is he brought to a certain degree of supernatural knowledge of the objects of faith by certain supernatural effects which are called miracles. Therefore the working of miracles belongs to a gratuitous grace.

Reply to Objection 1. Just as prophecy extends to whatever can be known supernaturally, so the working of miracles extends to all things that can be done supernaturally; the cause whereof is the divine omnipotence which cannot be communicated to any creature. Hence it is impossible for the principle of working miracles to be a quality abiding as a habit in the soul. On the other hand, just as the prophet’s mind is moved by divine inspiration to know something supernaturally, so too is it possible for the mind of the miracle worker to be moved to do something resulting in the miraculous effect which God causes by His power. Sometimes this takes place after prayer, as when Peter raised to life the dead Tabitha (Acts 9:40): sometimes without any previous prayer being expressed, as when Peter by upbraiding the lying Ananias and Saphira delivered them to death (Acts 5:4-9). Hence Gregory says (Dial. ii, 30) that “the saints work miracles, sometimes by authority, sometimes by prayer.” On either case, however, God is the principal worker, for He uses instrumentally either man’s inward movement, or his speech, or some outward action, or again the bodily contact of even a dead body. Thus when Josue had said as though authoritatively (Joshua 10:12): “Move not, O sun, toward Gabaon,” it is said afterwards (Joshua 10:14): “There was not before or after so long a day, the Lord obeying the voice of a man.”

** '**

 

[jmj1984]

** 'Reply to Objection 2. Our Lord is speaking there of the miracles to be wrought at the time of Antichrist, of which the Apostle says (2 Thessalonians 2:9) that the coming of Antichrist will be “according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders.” To quote the words of Augustine (De Civ. Dei xx, 19), “it is a matter of debate whether they are called signs and lying wonders, because he will deceive the senses of mortals by imaginary visions, in that he will seem to do what he does not, or because, though they be real wonders, they will seduce into falsehood them that believe.” They are said to be real, because the things themselves will be real, just as Pharaoh’s magicians made real frogs and real serpents; but they will not be real miracles, because they will be done by the power of natural causes, as stated in I, 114, 4; whereas the working of miracles which is ascribed to a gratuitous grace, is done by God’s power for man’s profit.

Reply to Objection 3. Two things may be considered in miracles. One is that which is done: this is something surpassing the faculty of nature, and in this respect miracles are called “virtues.” The other thing is the purpose for which miracles are wrought, namely the manifestation of something supernatural, and in this respect they are commonly called “signs”: but on account of some excellence they receive the name of “wonder” or “prodigy,” as showing something from afar [procul].

Reply to Objection 4. The “grace of healing” is mentioned separately, because by its means a benefit, namely bodily health, is conferred on man in addition to the common benefit bestowed in all miracles, namely the bringing of men to the knowledge of God.

Reply to Objection 5. The working of miracles is ascribed to faith for two reasons. First, because it is directed to the confirmation of faith, secondly, because it proceeds from God’s omnipotence on which faith relies. Nevertheless, just as besides the grace of faith, the grace of the word is necessary that people may be instructed in the faith, so too is the grace of miracles necessary that people may be confirmed in their faith
. **

 

[jmj1984]

**Article 2. Whether the wicked can work miracles?

Objection 1. It would seem that the wicked cannot work miracles. For miracles are wrought through prayer, as stated above (1, ad 1). Now the prayer of a sinner is not granted, according to John 9:31, “We know that God doth not hear sinners,” and Proverbs 28:9, “He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, his prayer shall be an abomination.” Therefore it would seem that the wicked cannot work miracles.

Objection 2. Further, miracles are ascribed to faith, according to Matthew 17:19, “If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed you shall say to this mountain: Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove.” Now “faith without works is dead,” according to (James 2:20), so that, seemingly, it is devoid of its proper operation. Therefore it would seem that the wicked, since they do not good works, cannot work miracles.

Objection 3. Further, miracles are divine attestations, according to Hebrews 2:4, “God also bearing them witness by signs and wonders and divers miracles”: wherefore in the Church the canonization of certain persons is based on the attestation of miracles. Now God cannot bear witness to a falsehood. Therefore it would seem that wicked men cannot work miracles.

Objection 4. Further, the good are more closely united to God than the wicked. But the good do not all work miracles. Much less therefore do the wicked.

On the contrary, The Apostle says (1 Corinthians 13:2): “If I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.” Now whosoever has not charity is wicked, because “this gift alone of the Holy Ghost distinguishes the children of the kingdom from the children of perdition,” as Augustine says (De Trin. xv, 18). Therefore it would seem that even the wicked can work miracles.

I answer that, Some miracles are not true but imaginary deeds, because they delude man by the appearance of that which is not; while others are true deeds, yet they have not the character of a true miracle, because they are done by the power of some natural cause. Both of these can be done by the demons, as stated above (1, ad 2).

True miracles cannot be wrought save by the power of God, because God works them for man’s benefit, and this in two ways: in one way for the confirmation of truth declared, in another way in proof of a person’s holiness, which God desires to propose as an example of virtue. On the first way miracles can be wrought by any one who preaches the true faith and calls upon Christ’s name, as even the wicked do sometimes. On this way even the wicked can work miracles. Hence Jerome commenting on Matthew 7:22, “Have not we prophesied in Thy name?” says: “Sometimes prophesying, the working of miracles, and the casting out of demons are accorded not to the merit of those who do these things, but to the invoking of Christ’s name, that men may honor God, by invoking Whom such great miracles are wrought.” **

 

[jmj1984]

**In the second way miracles are not wrought except by the saints, since it is in proof of their holiness that miracles are wrought during their lifetime or after death, either by themselves or by others. For we read (Acts 19:11-12) that “God wrought by the hand of Paul . . . miracles” and “even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs . . . and the diseases departed from them.” On this way indeed there is nothing to prevent a sinner from working miracles by invoking a saint; but the miracle is ascribed not to him, but to the one in proof of whose holiness such things are done.

Reply to Objection 1. As stated above (Question 83, Article 16) when we were treating of prayer, the prayer of impetration relies not on merit but on God’s mercy, which extends even to the wicked, wherefore the prayers even of sinners are sometimes granted by God. Hence Augustine says (Tract. xliv in Joan.) that “the blind man spoke these words before he was anointed,” that is, before he was perfectly enlightened; “since God does hear sinners.” When it is said that the prayer of one who hears not the law is an abomination, this must be understood so far as the sinner’s merit is concerned; yet it is sometimes granted, either for the spiritual welfare of the one who prays–as the publican was heard (Luke 18:1)4)–or for the good of others and for God’s glory.

Reply to Objection 2. Faith without works is said to be dead, as regards the believer, who lives not, by faith, with the life of grace. But nothing hinders a living thing from working through a dead instrument, as a man through a stick. It is thus that God works while employing instrumentally the faith of a sinner.

Reply to Objection 3. Miracles are always true witnesses to the purpose for which they are wrought. Hence wicked men who teach a false doctrine never work true miracles in confirmation of their teaching, although sometimes they may do so in praise of Christ’s name which they invoke, and by the power of the sacraments which they administer. If they teach a true doctrine, sometimes they work true miracles as confirming their teaching, but not as an attestation of holiness. Hence Augustine says (QQ. lxxxiii, qu. 79): “Magicians work miracles in one way, good Christians in another, wicked Christians in another. Magicians by private compact with the demons, good Christians by their manifest righteousness, evil Christians by the outward signs of righteousness.”

Reply to Objection 4. As Augustine says (QQ. lxxxiii, qu. 79), “the reason why these are not granted to all holy men is lest by a most baneful error the weak be deceived into thinking such deeds to imply greater gifts than the deeds of righteousness whereby eternal life is obtained.” **

 

[jmj1984]

So all Charasmatics can claim from The Angelic Doctor, Thomas Aquinas, is that he:

1)Believes in the existence of miracles
2)Believes they are perfectly legitimate
3)They can be a result of faith

Seeing as I never disputed any of this I fail to see how this helps your cause. On the contrary St Thomas warns us:

1)That miracles are only a confirmation of a persons holiness or message if their message is true, that is orthodox. This obviously rules out all non-catholics
2)That miracles can be done by demons
3)That miracles can often be imaginary or the result of natural causes
4)That there is a risk that the weak will be deceived that these deeds imply that they are greater than the deeds of spiritual righteousness

As regards the other authorities I have cited:

**
'I greatly fear what is happening in these times of ours: If any soul whatever after a bit of meditation has in its recollection one of these locutions, it will immediately baptize all as coming from God and with such a supposition say, ‘God told me,’ ‘God answered me.’ Yet this is not so, but, as we pointed out, these persons themselves are more often the origin of their locution." ** The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Book II Ch. 29

We can see that St John Of the Cross condemns those who do not properly discern spirits and believes that more often than not internal locutions are nothing more than a delusion, a self-generated delusion

**
" The soul that attaches itself to these false consolations falls into very dangerous errors, for God justly permits the devil to have power to augment in it these kinds of spiritual tastes, to repeat them frequently, and to inspire it with sentiments that are false, dangerous, and full of illusions, but which the misguided soul imagines to be true. Alas! How many souls have been seduced by these deceitful consolations? The majority of raptures and ecstasies, or, to call them by their proper name, frenzies of these fore runners of Antichrist spring from this cause. Hence, the only consolation you should admit into your soul in time of prayer, is that which is produced by the consciousness of your nothingness and misery; a consciousness which will preserve you in humility, and inspire you with profound reverence and the desire that he may be honored and glorified. Consolations such as these cannot mislead. " - Life of St. Vincent Ferrer, By Fr. Andrew Pradel, London 1875, Pg. 183
**
St Vincent Ferrer condemns focusing on such gifts as inevitably these gifts will mislead many and says that they should rather seek the virtues.

**
'…whereas even now the Holy Ghost is received yet no one speaks in tongues of all nations, because the Church already speaks in the languages of all nations. Since whoever is not in the Church, receives not the Holy Ghost” (Tract. XXXII, in Joan). Elsewhere he also affirms that "these [glossolalia] were miracles suited to the times… Is it now expected that they upon whom hands are laid, should speak with tongues? Or when we imposed our hand upon these children, did each of you wait to see whether they would speak with tongues? and when he saw that they did not speak with tongues, were any of you so perverse of heart as to say “these have not received the Holy Ghost”?** --*St. Augustine, Ep. Joan., tr. vi. *

St Augustine again explains that these extraordinary gifts like glossolia, which is different from miracles wrought by God through individuals, no longer occur and no longer will occur. Further it condemns the idea prevelant amogst charasmatics that if you do not have these gifts you are not saved or do not truly have the holy spirit or do not have it in full.

** “Certain people value above all amongst the spiritual gifts, that of performing miracles, which are to be seen, forgetting that there are many others higher, which are hidden and because of that not liable to fall.”** *St. John Climacus, Scala Paradisi, 26th degree, 78 *

St John Climacus like others condemns the overemphasis on the performing of miracles and points out that they are more likely to make people fall than others i.e the virtues which will not make people fall.

 

[Melchior_1]

Actually if you want I’ll start a whole thread defending them?

No need to defend them mate, I’ll just use your arguments.

*traditional catholicism is not a doctrine or de fide, no one has to believe it and you will not find one authoritative document saying otherwise *