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jmj1984
Guest
I’m not saying anything more on this discussion till somene provides some evidence from tradition for the movement, till then the arguments ab absurdam and ad hominem attacks are being ignored.
Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement
- Status
I’m not saying anything more on this discussion till somene provides some evidence from tradition for the movement, till then the arguments ab absurdam and ad hominem attacks are being ignored.
M
Melchior_1
Guest
There’s been a lot of things presented from Tradition (capital T).
I’m not arguing, I want to know what you think about an actual member of the movement. You say the movement is heretical, I want to know if I’m a heretic for participating. It’s a valid question.
W
Warrenton
Guest
I am not sure this is a fair method of arguing on these boards. No human can say whether another is going to hell. Let’s assume many of us are going to hell, and leave it at that.
Whether someone is heretical or not is also not a fair question. We can say certain beliefs are heretical, if the fact is well established (e.g. Nestorianism). It’s probably better if we set up our criteria, and measure our positions against them. Subjective judgments about each other’s faith - not so good.
W
Warrenton
Guest
M
Melchior_1
Guest
A whole movement was painted with a broad brush, being called heretical. Societies of Apostolic Life have been formed based on the movement, which means that they too are based on heresy if you believe this. All those formed by said movement, including the papal preacher, are now under the cloud of heresy. That’s a lot of heresy. I’m entitled to ask if someone who is attacking a movement I’ve been involved with if they consider me to be in the same state of “apostasy” of Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa.
M
Melchior_1
Guest
I think in some cases this is happening.
I couldn’t agree more with this, very well said. I really do think that true traditionalists and true charismatics want the same thing; the Salvation of souls and a Sacramental life. In this case what works for you may not work for me or I may not “get”, but that doesn’t make it less valid or less respectful. On the flip side, there’s some elements of my spirituality which would drive you crazy I’m sure, but it doesn’t make it less valid or respectful.
More Jesus is always good!
V
vardaquinn
Guest
I recommend you listen to Dr. Kreeft’s excellent talk. peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism.htm If you prefer, you can read the transcript. And there is another article written by Kreeft, also written, of great importance.
Personally, I’ll take what the current Popes have been saying in their encyclicals over ones from hundreds of years ago. Things change. Let it not be said that I am disloyal to the recent Popes.
Kreeft claims:
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jmj1984
Guest
No the faith doesn’t change and what popes say must be read in the light of tradition you can’t ignore dozens of encyclicals because several popes have made speeches that you like more. Besides you haven’t quoted encyclicals you’ve quoted speeches, even if you were to quote enyclicals, popes are of equal authority you can’t set aside dozens of enyclicals in favour of 1 or 2.
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vardaquinn
Guest
Thought you’d say that. Yep, that’s right. Blithely ignore our bishops, after all, you know more about Catholicism than the direct successors of the first Apostles. Blithely ignore the Pope too, when he makes his claims. You know best, right?
What are you expecting from the Pope? An infallible declaration that “The charismatic movement is not evil?” That’s not how it works! The Holy See has given plenty of statements, AS WE’VE SHOWN YOU, that this is a genuine working of the Holy Spirit in our age.
There are many Protestants who are better Christians than you or I are because they know Jesus better than you or I do. It is one thing to have the right concepts about Him, to be “orthodox” to have right teaching, to know about Him. It is a better thing to know Him. Of course, it is best to know both. But many Protestants are better Catholics than Catholics.
Your last claim is a bare assertion. Let us honestly try and see that for certain before we make such claims. Especially given that the Magisterium currently thinks otherwise.
Don’t follow you there… elaborate, please.
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vardaquinn
Guest
I did. It said that the charisms are a means of sanctification. It includes extraordinary gifts in with that. As well as simple, humble and more widely diffused ones. And think about it. If the gift isn’t there for your sanctification (or more primarily, someone else’s sanctification) why would God give it at all?
Haven’t I already been through this with you? Hmm. I’ll do it again then. On the Vatican website, there’s a mistranslation there. In other translations I’ve seen, you don’t usually find that one. Hopefully they will change it, since it’s extremely misleading and contradicts scripture (you know where Paul says “seek eagerly the highest spiritual gifts, especially prophecy” at the very least).
So here’s what’s wrong with it. The original Latin says: Dona autem extraordinaria non sunt temere expetenda (you can find it here, if you’re interested ewtn.com/library/councils/v2lumlat.htm).
That word temere is an adverb, and it means “by chance, randomly, without cause, rashly, thoughtlessly”. This is totally dropped from English translation.
So what is this really saying?
Dona = “gifts”, neuter second declension noun, accusative plural.
autem = “but, on the other hand, however”.
extraordinaria = “extraordinary” adjective, modifying “dona”
non sunt = are not
temere = “rashly, thoughtlessly, without cause” adverb
expetenda = “demand, ask for, exact (as a penalty)” third conjugation verb, and it’s a gerund, going with “dona” again.
Alright, so this reads something more like “Extraordinary gifts, however, are not to be rashly demanded/exacted.”
VERY VERY different matter.
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vardaquinn
Guest
Show me. Read the speech, read Ut Unum Sint, and then show me how this flies in the face of real Church teaching.
V
vardaquinn
Guest
I hope so as well!
Thank you.
This was a very useful article from New Advent on “Charismata” newadvent.org/cathen/03588e.htm
I agree with your complaint there. When investigating the movement for the first time, it was such a pain because charism was such broadly used term. Someone has a charisma about them. A religious order has a particular charism. When they say charism, do they mean THE CHARISMS, or do they mean just gift in general? The most useful thing to determine if that is so or not is if they cite 1 Corinthinas 12. If they do, they are definitely referring to the 9 Pauline charisms, one of which is tongues.
Alright, so a charism is a divinely inspired gift. It isn’t a natural one, like a natural talent. I have a natural talent for art, for instance. A charism is a supernatural gift. I have the charisms of tongues, for instance. What does that mean? It means I have the gift of being able to speak (for me, at the very least in the context of prayer) in languages I have never studied.
I absolutely agree. I have a few theories as to why this has not be done. Because this is a very “grassroots” sort of thing. It’s from the bottom up. Sometimes things move through the Church from the top down, but this is very bottom up. Eventually, provided it is from God, then it will spread to the entirety of the Church and cease to exist. Currently, it is in the form of a movement. We will see more and more consistent teaching on charisms, on the Holy Spirit, on the experience of Pentecost, on those aspects at the heart of this movement the more it spreads to the whole Church. Changes will be made. But the Church, I think, often takes things rather slowly.
This is a rift that absolutely should not be there. It is a rift that is harmful to the life of the Church and Her mission. Our God is a God of unity. And it is thus His will that this rift be healed. Therefore, rest assured it will be - on His terms.
I can understand why this rift is there. But it doesn’t need to be at all. I consider myself to be a “traditionalist”, at least as far as many liturgical and devotional practices go. I also consider myself to be a “charismatic”. These should not be opposed at all.
I
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jmj1984
Guest
You clearly don’t know much either about canon law or authority in the church. That can be the only reason for your above comments, simply put it is for The Holy See to approve these movements. The bishops can publish all the documents they want but the final say and indeed the only authoritative say on this matter is The Pope’s. And the pope has not issued an authoritative document on this matter.Thought you’d say that. Yep, that’s right. Blithely ignore our bishops, after all, you know more about Catholicism than the direct successors of the first Apostles. Blithely ignore the Pope too, when he makes his claims. You know best, right?
For your edification, statements from bishops conferences only apply to the country the bishops conference is entrusted with, so as regards authority they rank below any statements from the CDF but above theologians for the USA and don’t rank at all for the rest of the world.
Yes, statements not encyclicals, statements, the lowest form of authority one could give a movement. And when we see all the encyclicals condeming practices that are widespread and indeed intrinsic to the movement then we could read the statements in that light.
Just no, for one thing heretics and schismatics are never going to be better catholics than catholics and for another your assertion that ‘it is better to know him… than to have the right beliefs’ is troubling. It flies in the face of oh a few dozen encyclicals, in short having the right beliefs allows us to know him and maintain our knowledge of him and inculcates our knowledge of him in us. One could say that it is better to obey jesus and not have all the right beliefs than to have all the beliefs and not obey him.
A few papal speeches does not constitute the magisterium, I don’t even think papal speeches are part of the magisterium and if they are they would probably be extremely lightweight.
Elaborate how?
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jmj1984
Guest
A speech and one encyclical badly read does not constitute authority.
“10. To use the words of the fathers of Trent, it is certain that the Church “was instructed by Jesus Christ and His Apostles and that all truth was daily taught it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”[12] Therefore, it is obviously absurd and injurious to propose a certain “restoration and regeneration” for her as though necessary for her safety and growth, as if she could be considered subject to defect or obscuration or other misfortune. Indeed these authors of novelties consider that a “foundation may be laid of a new human institution,” and what Cyprian detested may come to pass, that what was a divine thing “may become a human church.”[13] Let those who devise such plans be aware that, according to the testimony of St. Leo, “the right to grant dispensation from the canons is given” only to the Roman Pontiff. He alone, and no private person, can decide anything “about the rules of the Church Fathers.” As St. Gelasius writes: "It is the papal responsibility to keep the canonical decrees in their place and to evaluate the precepts of previous popes so that when the times demand relaxation in order to rejuvenate the churches, they may be adjusted after diligent consideration."MIRARI VOS ON LIBERALISM AND RELIGIOUS INDIFFERENTISM ENCYCLICAL OF POPE GREGORY XVI AUGUST 15, 1832
'And since truth cannot contradict truth, we define that every statement contrary to the enlightened truth of the faith is totally false and we strictly forbid teaching otherwise to be permitted. We decree that all those who cling to erroneous statements of this kind, thus sowing heresies which are wholly condemned, should be avoided in every way and punished as detestable and odious heretics and infidels who are undermining the catholic faith. Moreover we strictly enjoin on each and every philosopher who teaches publicly in the universities or elsewhere, that when they explain or address to their audience the principles or conclusions of philosophers, where these are known to deviate from the true faith – as in the assertion of the soul’s mortality or of there being only one soul or of the eternity of the world and other topics of this kind – they are obliged to devote their every effort to clarify for their listeners the truth of the christian religion, to teach it by convincing arguments, so far as this is possible, and to apply themselves to the full extent of their energies to refuting and disposing of the philosophers’ opposing arguments, since all the solutions are available” Fifth Lateran Council, Session 8
'13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that “those who are not with Christ are against Him,”[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore “without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.”[18] Let them hear Jerome who, while the Church was torn into three parts by schism, tells us that whenever someone tried to persuade him to join his group he always exclaimed: “He who is for the See of Peter is for me.”[19] A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: “The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?”[20]” MIRARI VOS ON LIBERALISM AND RELIGIOUS INDIFFERENTISM ENCYCLICAL OF POPE GREGORY XVI AUGUST 15, 1832
“‘III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. – Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. – Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. – Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.”’ THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED BY PIUS IX
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jmj1984
Guest
'“3. But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians.
4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be “one.”[1] And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”?[2] All Christians, they add, should be as “one”: for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. … it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.
5. Admonished, therefore, by the consciousness of Our Apostolic office that We should not permit the flock of the Lord to be cheated by dangerous fallacies, We invoke, Venerable Brethren, your zeal in avoiding this evil; for We are confident that by the writings and words of each one of you the people will more easily get to know and understand those principles and arguments which We are about to set forth, and from which Catholics will learn how they are to think and act when there is question of those undertakings which have for their end the union in one body, whatsoever be the manner, of all who call themselves Christians.
But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from the one fold of Christ.
8. This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ. Shall We suffer, what would indeed be iniquitous, the truth, and a truth divinely revealed, to be made a subject for compromise?
9. These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: nevertheless how does it happen that this charity tends to injure faith? Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment “Love one another,” altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ’s teaching: “If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you.”[18] For which reason, since charity is based on a complete and sincere faith, the disciples of Christ must be united principally by the bond of one faith
10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: “The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and the hope of life and salvation modestly.”[20] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]
11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.."[26]
” MORTALIUM ANIMOS
ON RELIGIOUS UNITY
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI JANUARY 6, 1928
4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be “one.”[1] And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”?[2] All Christians, they add, should be as “one”: for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. … it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.
5. Admonished, therefore, by the consciousness of Our Apostolic office that We should not permit the flock of the Lord to be cheated by dangerous fallacies, We invoke, Venerable Brethren, your zeal in avoiding this evil; for We are confident that by the writings and words of each one of you the people will more easily get to know and understand those principles and arguments which We are about to set forth, and from which Catholics will learn how they are to think and act when there is question of those undertakings which have for their end the union in one body, whatsoever be the manner, of all who call themselves Christians.
But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from the one fold of Christ.
8. This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ. Shall We suffer, what would indeed be iniquitous, the truth, and a truth divinely revealed, to be made a subject for compromise?
9. These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: nevertheless how does it happen that this charity tends to injure faith? Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment “Love one another,” altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ’s teaching: “If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you.”[18] For which reason, since charity is based on a complete and sincere faith, the disciples of Christ must be united principally by the bond of one faith
10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: “The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and the hope of life and salvation modestly.”[20] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]
11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.."[26]
” MORTALIUM ANIMOS
ON RELIGIOUS UNITY
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI JANUARY 6, 1928
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jmj1984
Guest
’ Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,’ and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.
We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: ‘Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.’ [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23- 24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: ‘Feed my sheep’ [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John ‘there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.’
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” UNAM SANCTAM
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302
**
‘They [the faithful] should
totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence
which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They
should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings
or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the
duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction
**’ Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae
'**Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: “a single Catholic and apostolic Church”.51 Furthermore, the promises of the Lord that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20) and that he would guide her by his Spirit (cf. Jn 16:13) mean, according to Catholic faith, that the unicity and the unity of the Church — like everything that belongs to the Church’s integrity — will never be lacking.52
The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the apostolic succession53 — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: “This is the single Church of Christ… which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as ‘the pillar and mainstay of the truth’ (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.54 With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.57
**
We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: ‘Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.’ [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23- 24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: ‘Feed my sheep’ [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John ‘there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.’
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” UNAM SANCTAM
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302
**
‘They [the faithful] should
totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence
which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They
should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings
or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the
duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction
**’ Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae
'**Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: “a single Catholic and apostolic Church”.51 Furthermore, the promises of the Lord that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20) and that he would guide her by his Spirit (cf. Jn 16:13) mean, according to Catholic faith, that the unicity and the unity of the Church — like everything that belongs to the Church’s integrity — will never be lacking.52
The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the apostolic succession53 — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: “This is the single Church of Christ… which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as ‘the pillar and mainstay of the truth’ (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.54 With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.57
- Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60
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jmj1984
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**The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66
The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67…
The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation.
Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect
Tarcisio Bertone, S.D.B.
Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli
Secretary*’
That is what I mean by Authority.
The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67…
The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation.
- With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”.83 However, from what has been stated above about the mediation of Jesus Christ and the “unique and special relationship”84 which the Church has with the kingdom of God among men — which in substance is the universal kingdom of Christ the Saviour — it is clear that it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.
- With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92 .94**’ Declaration Dominus Iesus '*The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience of June 16, 2000, granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with sure knowledge and by his apostolic authority, ratified and confirmed this Declaration, adopted in Plenary Session and ordered its publication.
Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect
Tarcisio Bertone, S.D.B.
Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli
Secretary*’
That is what I mean by Authority.
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OrthdxyTriumphs
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OrthdxyTriumphs
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I just counted them. There are 22. .iccrs.org/en/index.php/ccr/
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justtryin
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The bolded part is interesting to me. If jmj1984 is making the claim that Charismatic Renewal started outside the Catholic Church with Protestants, and was then brought into the Catholic Church by means of Catholics paticipating in CR with Protestants, Does that make it a renewal inside the church? If its origins were outside?
Just curious.
Thank you
- Status