Defending the Novus Ordo Mass

[kleary]

The prayers are shorter and more to the point. Some of the prayers that were cut out of the Tridentine mass were a bit on the wordy side and, in my opinion, make it hard to stay focused on what is really important.

Ironically the Protestant Reformers also cut out the same prayers. They did it for doctrinal reasons. What a good compromise- saying we do it for brevity- but have them believe we do it for doctrinal changes.

The priest faces you across the altar, so you can see what he is doing. That makes it more like actually being at the Last Supper.

Martin Luther would be proud of you son. He felt the same way as you do. It looks just like the last supper paintings now doesn’t it.

The prayers are spoken more loudly and clearly so that it’s easier to understand the prayers being said. And you can participate with more responses.

Participate in what? The same thing Luther, Calvin and Zwingly believed in? “More Loudly”? The reason prayers in the TLM are pronounced in a low tone are for a purpose. There are some parts of the Mass so sacred that a veil is purposely placed there to show the sacredness of what is happening.

Ken

 

[VociMike]

I don’t quite understand the point you’re trying to make here. Are you saying that, with all the Popes we ever had, this Pope decided he was going to show them who’s the most daring?

I’m saying that even if the some of the links between the documents of Vatican II and the details of the NO Missal are questionable, Paul VI still had the authority to promulgate the NO Missal.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Ironically the Protestant Reformers also cut out the same prayers. They did it for doctrinal reasons. What a good compromise- saying we do it for brevity- but have them believe we do it for doctrinal changes.

Can you give some examples? I don’t know anything about the history of the protestant liturgies.

 

[Mickey]

The latest form was issued in 1969.

I am very much at peace with the Liturgy of St Chrysostom (Basil, James) as opposed to the 1969 NO.

Long, long before I even knew of the existence of the Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Church, I had noticed the protestant feel of the NO. Subtle changes of ancient Liturgies is one thing–the overhaul and modernizations of the NO is another.

 

[Mickey]

And Father is planning on instituting a TLM when the building project is completed next February

Excellent!

 

[Mickey]

I’ve worshipped with a local Melkite community, and their D.L. wasn’t latinized in the least

Yes. The Melkites have a very traditional Liturgy. That is why I said “most” and not “all”.

 

[Mickey]

The priest faces you across the altar, so you can see what he is doing. That makes it more like actually being at the Last Supper.

The priest always faced the altar with the people. It was symbolic of facing east (even if the direction was not literally east). Priest and people, as one, turned toward God. This was changed because people felt there was a disconnect between congregation and priest— they would see his back so often and were unable to hear him clearly. In my opinion, it is a protestantization.

 

[Mickey]

There are some parts of the Mass so sacred that a veil is purposely placed there to show the sacredness of what is happening.

Yes! The Orthodox Church continues to have silent prayers and a curtain covering the Royal Doors.

 

[Brendan]

Aha! That is because you are of Slovak heritage.

Actually, I belong to that parish as well, and my parents are from Ireland

In fact, think there’s enought of us at that parish that Fr. should look at adding a Gaelic Mass… but since his adding in a 1962 Missal Mass as soon as the parish renovations are complete, we’ll let it pass

 

[djrakowski]

Actually, I belong to that parish as well, and my parents are from Ireland

In fact, think there’s enought of us at that parish that Fr. should look at adding a Gaelic Mass… but since his adding in a 1962 Missal Mass as soon as the parish renovations are complete, we’ll let it pass

Any idea whether we’re going to have an altar rail in place of the kneelers we’ve been using?

I wonder how many of our fellow parishioners will be regular attendees of the TLM?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

The priest always faced the altar with the people. It was symbolic of facing east (even if the direction was not literally east). Priest and people, as one, turned toward God. This was changed because people felt there was a disconnect between congregation and priest— they would see his back so often and were unable to hear him clearly. In my opinion, it is a protestantization.

All that matters is whether it’s how Jesus and the apostles would have preferred it. It sounds like you’re letting the protestants define your liturgy. “Whatever they do, I’m doing the opposite”.

 

[Mickey]

All that matters is whether it’s how Jesus and the apostles would have preferred it. It sounds like you’re letting the protestants define your liturgy. “Whatever they do, I’m doing the opposite”.

Wrong. We are looking here at the manner in which the ancient Church set forth the Liturgy. The priest never faced the people (and it was never that way in the Latin Catholic Church until the NO). I believe the Roman Catholics aped the practice from the protestants. You will not see it in most Eastern Catholic Churches.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Wrong. We are looking here at the manner in which the ancient Church set forth the Liturgy. The priest never faced the people (and it was never that way in the Latin Catholic Church until the NO). I believe the Roman Catholics aped the practice from the protestants. You will not see it in most Eastern Catholic Churches.

The tridentine liturgy was created hundreds of years after the time of the apostles. Do you have any evidence that the apostles or early church fathers faced away from the congregation when they said mass? Does the Novus Ordo imitate the protestants, or does it imitate the Catholic Church from the first 3 centuries?

(I have to be honest, I don’t know much about pre-tridentine liturgy, but I would really like to learn and I’m hoping you can help!)

 

[Mickey]

(I have to be honest, I don’t know much about pre-tridentine liturgy, but I would really like to learn and I’m hoping you can help!)

“Where priest and people together face the same way, what we have is a cosmic orientation and also in interpretation of the Eucharist in terms of resurrection and trinitarian theology. Hence it is also an interpretation in terms of parousia, a theology of hope, in which every Mass is an approach to the return of Christ.” (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger)

 

[Mickey]

Do you have any evidence that the apostles or early church fathers faced away from the congregation when they said mass?

Why the insistence on an Eastward-facing position for both priest and congregation? From early on, Christians adopted the Jewish practice of praying toward Eden, in the East (Gen. 2:8), the direction from which Ezekiel saw come “the glory of the God of Israel” (Ezek 43:2,4), the direction in which Jesus ascended from the Mount of Olives and wherefrom He will return (Acts 1:11), and the direction whence the Angel of the Lord will come in the end time (Rev. 7:2). Tertullian informs us that Christian churches are “always” oriented “toward the light”.

Origen asserts that the direction of the rising sun obviously indicates that we ought to pray inclining in that direction, an act which symbolizes the soul looking toward the rising of the true light, the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Saint John Damascene says that, while waiting the coming of the Lord, “we adore Him facing East”, for that is the tradition passed down to us from the Apostles. Other Church Fathers who confirm this usage are Clement of Alexandria, Saint Basil and Saint Augustine. To this day, the ancient Coptic Rite of Egypt retains in its eucharistic liturgy (just before the Sursum corda) the age-old exhortation of the deacon: “Look towards the East!”
adoremus.org/1199-Kocik.html

 

[Neil_Anthony]

…From early on, Christians adopted the Jewish practice of praying toward Eden, in the East …

Tertullian informs us that Christian churches are “always” oriented "toward the light…

Origen asserts that the direction of the rising sun obviously indicates that we ought to pray inclining in that direction…

Can you quote your sources for these? I tried looking up that saying from Tertullian and all I could find was the website you copied your information from, which also doesn’t give its source.

 

[Mickey]

Can you quote your sources for these?

Feel free to search this site. I do not have the time.
tertullian.org/anf/index.htm

 

[Neil_Anthony]

“Where priest and people together face the same way, what we have is a cosmic orientation and also in interpretation of the Eucharist in terms of resurrection and trinitarian theology. Hence it is also an interpretation in terms of parousia, a theology of hope, in which every Mass is an approach to the return of Christ.” (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger)

In my parish the priest faces East and the congregation faces west. But at the Latin Mass I go to sometimes, everyone faces North.

 

[Mickey]

In my parish the priest faces East and the congregation faces west. But at the Latin Mass I go to sometimes, everyone faces North.

My guess is that due to architectural limitations when the Church was built, north would symbolically mean east.

 

[Unitas]

The prayers are shorter and more to the point. Some of the prayers that were cut out of the Tridentine mass were a bit on the wordy side and, in my opinion, make it hard to stay focused on what is really important.

You lose focus when reciting prayers? That’s odd. I always thought prayers to God during mass was important, I guess not since you say they distract from what’s important. Silly me.

The priest faces you across the altar, so you can see what he is doing. That makes it more like actually being at the Last Supper.

That shouldn’t really matter since the mass is not a show nor is it merely a communal meal. I think that the priest offering his sacrifice with us and leading from the front makes an important example.

The prayers are spoken more loudly and clearly so that it’s easier to understand the prayers being said. And you can participate with more responses.

Responses don’t always mean participation. How many times during a reading does the lector say “Peace be with you” and half the congregation responds, “And also with you…” They’re not participating, they’re on autopilot.

If you’re following and praying along in your missal, or praying the mass as St. Pius X explains it, there’s really no reason not to understand what is being said.

If a person is unable to rouse his spirit to participate internally then there’s no way he can participate externally. You confuse participation with scripted movements and responses, when participation has a far less shallow meaning.

Longer scripture readings. Hearing scripture is good. Also the lectionary covers more of the bible. In the Tridentine mass the same readings come up quite often.

More scripture is good but that is provided they come from a decent translation. The NAB, NRSV, and the Grail psalter are all very poor translations, yet all are allowed in the lectionary. Compound that with a poor translation of the missal from the ICEL and you have a very sub-standard lex orandi, which explains the current poor lex credendi.