Defending the Novus Ordo Mass

[Mickey]

While they’re at it they can update the english translation, which of course will be gender-neutral.

That’s encouraging.

I suspect people like the TLM because it’s like a time capsule from 1962.

Well, I must say that I understand their feelings. I love the Holy Orthodox Church because it is like a time capsule from 33AD!

The priests can’t preach the simple truth because most of their congregation would get up and leave.

Do you hear what you are saying here? The priests cannot preach the simple truth! Oh, woe is me!

They’re preaching at the level of the people they have. It’s not the priests who introduced sophia worship and the push for female priests, it’s the people.

The people are just as much a part of the Church as the clergy and hierarchs. The people need correct teaching, not compromises that the clergy make to keep them in the pews.

And if they banned the Novus Ordo today, how would that stop retreat houses from teaching reiki and all that stuff? What’s the connection?

The only way to stop the Catholic new agers, is for the bishops to shut them down. But the bishops will do nothing! They turn a blind eye to this mumbo -jumbo. In a way, to turn a blind eye is analagous to approval. [Edited by Moderator]

 

[Neil_Anthony]

That’s encouraging.
Do you hear what you are saying here? The priests cannot preach the simple truth! Oh, woe is me!

I imagine priests have to make a choice between bluntly proclaiming the faith to a mostly empty church, or having the church full and teaching people the parts of the faith they’re ready to accept. I’m sure its a difficult choice.

 

[RWMorris]

I am a convert from Protestantism and I love the NO Mass. I would feel completely lost in a TLM. Why don’t some poeple admit that the NO Mass is also okay?

 

[Mickey]

I imagine priests have to make a choice between bluntly proclaiming the faith to a mostly empty church, or having the church full and teaching people the parts of the faith they’re ready to accept. I’m sure its a difficult choice.

Scripture tells us that it is a narrow path.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

I do not say that they are all beyond defense. But the majority of Masses I have attended in the “modern” times is unrecognizable from the Mass I grew up with. The priest has been turned around. Communion is (sometimes) given under one species. Women shed the head coverings. Tabernacles were (often) put off to the side or another area. Folk Masses and Jazz Masses were instituted. I could go on–but you get the point. It really is quite sad sometimes. Just today someone told me that their priest gave the homily sitting in a canoe at the altar last week (but I suppose it is not as bad as the infamous clown Mass).

Lord have mercy!

I have seen much of the same in many Novus Ordo services. In addition, it is not outrageous for the priest to give homily in unorthodox methods. For example, Priests are now putting more emphasis on Halloween than All souls and All Saints days (wearing Halloween costumes). This is occurring in the schools that coincide with a particular parish. Another case in point: The Christmas assembly last year (at a local Catholic School), had nothing to do with Jesus Christ who is God and everything to do with ‘Santa Claus’ (I could never figure out why when you move the ‘N’ in Santa and put at the end you get Satan Claus, this might be nothing but he is wearing red).

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stay on topic, everyone. And remember, denigrating any rite of the Church is not allowed on the board. Thank you.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Communion rails removed, there are even churches that have started/have removed kneelers. My wife’s old church (not Assumption Grotto, when she was young), they don’t kneel at all.

At the church I used to attend, sitting is the norm instead of kneeling.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Hence why I am being drawn more and more to the Anglican Use parishes. All the happiness of the vernacular with the majesty that the Mass deservices.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Since this is a thread based on the defense of the Novus Ordo service, please address the following queries:

Is it not true,

(1)That Communion given in hand (in Novus Ordo service) is a practice protestants introduced to deny Christ’s Real Presence?

(2)That The words of consecration, Christ’s own words “For you and for many” are changed?

(3)That New prayers systematically omit references to hell, judgement, punishment for sin, merits of the Saints, the one true Church, the souls of the departed & miracles?

Thank you.

After looking them over I got answers of Yes, Yes, and Yes.

 

[Jordan_Francis]

I have recently reverted to Catholicism. The high theology of the Mass played a large role in this process. When I went back to the Novus Ordo I felt as though it did not quite live up the the rich history and theology of the Church. I went to a TLM in the name of nostalgia, looking for a Catholic experience that seemed more appropriate what I had been learning about the Church’s self-concept.

However, I have since then learned that the Novus Ordo can be a very beautiful rite that does indeed appropriately represent the high theology of the Church. It really depends on the orthodoxy of the priest and the reverence of the parishoners. I went to a Mass recently with a very reverent and orthodox priest who, it was quite obvious, was perfectly aware of everything the Mass means to Catholics. He gave pause in all the right moments, had the altar boys hold candles beside the pulpit during the readings of scripture, offered both species of the Eucharist, had a deacon present and sung at many points in the Mass. Since I do not know all the technical terms of a Mass, I can not tell you exactly where he seemed to do everything so reverently.

All I can say is that, as someone initially disillussioned with the Novus Ordo, this Mass restored my feelings for it. By the time I took the Eucharist I felt like I was in another world, I felt as though I had been standing with the Catholics of every age, praying with the Saints and the Holy Mother and truly experiencing Christ through the Apostolic ministry. It’s been weeks and this Mass is still nurturing my spiritual vigor, the memory of it helps to keep me fervent in prayer and devotion.

While I appreciate the TLM, I think a the NO is the way of the future of the Church. We just need to help fellow Catholics and, unfortunately many priests, come to a better understanding of how to properly participate.

 

[AJV]

Since this is a thread based on the defense of the Novus Ordo service, please address the following queries:

Is it not true,

(1)Tthat Communion given in hand (in Novus Ordo service) is a practice protestants introduced to deny Christ’s Real Presence?

Yes.

Though if I was defending it, I would ask for proof that the same intention was present in the NO. And perhaps to the Patristics

(2)That The words of consecration, Christ’s own words “For you and for many” are changed?

Depends.

(3)That New prayers systematically omit references to hell, judgement, punishment for sin, merits of the Saints, the one true Church, the souls of the departed & miracles?

Contrary to Father Cekeda, no not entirely.

to cite one thing: he makes a reference to the story of Lazarus being omitted form one of the collects as the evidence for miracles being omitted. Strangely enough, the NO provides an entire preface mentioning the resurrection of Lazarus in Lent.

 

[AJV]

Since this is a thread based on the defense of the Novus Ordo service, please address the following queries:

Is it not true,

(1)Tthat Communion given in hand (in Novus Ordo service) is a practice protestants introduced to deny Christ’s Real Presence?

Yes.

Though if I was defending it, I would ask for proof that the same intention was present in the NO. And perhaps to the Patristics

(2)That The words of consecration, Christ’s own words “For you and for many” are changed?

Depends.

(3)That New prayers systematically omit references to hell, judgement, punishment for sin, merits of the Saints, the one true Church, the souls of the departed & miracles?

Contrary to Father Cekeda, no not entirely.

to cite one thing: he makes a reference to the story of Lazarus being omitted form one of the collects (St. Mary Magdalene) as the evidence for miracles being omitted. Strangely enough, the NO provides an entire preface mentioning the resurrection of Lazarus in Lent. (Actually the change was done to dissociate St. Mary Magalene as being the the same Mary and the sister of Martha)

As for hell, judgment and punishment, you can go through the Propers for the Dead in the NO. Like

“O God, it is by your mercy that the faithful rest in peace. Pardon the sins of your servants N. and N. and all who have died in Christ, and free them form their punishment, so tht they may share in the resurrection of your Son.”

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Yes.

Though if I was defending it, I would ask for proof that the same intention was present in the NO. And perhaps to the Patristics

So do as the Protestants do, but without intent. This does not suffice and thus makes no sense to alter it. Some may be led astray and think Protestant as many have in our local Parish.

Depends.

Actually it has been changed from ‘many’ to ‘all’. Are the words in Latin the same for all and many? Did Christ actually say many and mean all ?

Contrary to Father Cekeda, no not entirely.

Well yes they have been omitted, that is fact. Hell for example is absent.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Is it not true,

(1)That Communion given in hand (in Novus Ordo service) is a practice protestants introduced to deny Christ’s Real Presence?

No, this was done by St. Cyril of Jerusalem long before protestants. Protestants didn’t introduce it, it had been around long before.

Quoting from St. Cyril of Jerusalem (ca. 348), Pope Paul VI instructed that, “‘When you approach Holy Communion, make the left hand into a throne for the right, which will receive the King.’ Then with your lower hand, take the consecrated Host and place it in your mouth.”

(2)That The words of consecration, Christ’s own words “For you and for many” are changed?

Christ didn’t say those words in English. Or in Latin. We’re using a translation when the mass is said in English, so of course those aren’t the exact words he said.

(3)That New prayers systematically omit references to hell, judgement, punishment for sin, merits of the Saints, the one true Church, the souls of the departed & miracles?

No. If it was systematic, there would be none of those prayers left. They shortened the prayers. There are still prayers that refer to

hell and judgement: “Save us from final damnation”

merits of the Saints: “may their merits and prayers gain us your constant help and protection”

one true Church, besides in the creed, “we offer them for your holy catholic church”

souls of the departed: “remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest”

miracles: all through the gospels and scripture readings.

And I’m just a regular lay person who has an old and a new missal. How can you say things like that when you obviously haven’t even looked for yourself? take the time to look first before making accusations, please!

Here’s a webpage to help you
geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/compare.html

 

[AJV]

Well yes they have been omitted, that is fact. Hell for example is absent.

Well considering that the word occurs in only 1 Collect out of about 20 for the dead in the Traditional missal, that’s not too difficult. The Offertory antiphon doesn’t count because all Offertory antiphons are supressed in the NO.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.