Defense of the abortion/Discussion about Ethics

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This would be the issue of consent, which l would rather not go into.

Yes, but fetus never existed as a person, while person under anesthesia and in sleep was.

Difference would be, never waking up to being with vs going to sleep but never waking up.
 
Yes, but fetus never existed as a person, while person under anesthesia and in sleep was.
Once the past is over onlty the effects that still persist in the present matter.
Difference would be, never waking up to being with vs going to sleep but never waking up.
Whether that means anything or not isn’t exactly evident.
 
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How isn’t it a brute fact? It exists, it always existed and will always exist, and proof of it’s existence is it’s necessity

Goodness for me would be things like ‘life, health, and freedom’

l wouldn’t call them evils, they are just bad
 
There are a number of different kinds of consequentialist ethics. Which variety do you ascribe to?

I disagree about the thought experiment - I suppose if you insist on the maximization of utility for the maximum number of people, well, you could do that, but end up with far less utility overall… which seems dumb.
 
They are based on logic. Authority is not needed for something to be absolute.

It doesn’t have to be mother,
Difference is that her getting an abortion would be more moral than just throwing the baby, Her taking the baby home means she accepted the role of a mother, throwing baby at that point would be immoral.
When you consent to sex, you don’t always consent to being pregnant

So, when you do something dangerous that has high risk of getting you hurt or killed, can doctors just reject you by saying ‘well, you accepted the risks’?

Yes, that’s why l dislike human rights as a concept. If God can change his mind, than no.
Though, God’s rights are hard to prove philosophically, also as someone who doesn’t believe in any specific God(l am no an atheist), it’s meaningless to me.

No, as l said, l base my morals on sentience, so if someone chooses to kill something sentient without a justification it would be immoral

l am sceptical of the idea of soul, though l don’t reject it either.
With that in mind, l don’t think even if souls existed, that they would manifest themself so early. l find no good explenation for that.
 
l don’t follow any specific school of thought.

It really depends, as there are many different views under consequentialism
 
How isn’t it a brute fact? It exists, it always existed and will always exist, and proof of it’s existence is it’s necessity.
Before I continue I’ll clarify my objection is to ontological brute facts, and you assert that an Uncaused Cause would be one.

I disagree. What is a brute fact? Something which exists as an exception to the principle of sufficient reason, which I would state as “everything has sufficient reason for why it exists.” Furthermore, this sufficient reason must be either intrinsic to the thing itself, or from another. The Uncaused Cause would (in order to not be an exception to the PSR) have to have its sufficient reason in itself and not from another.

I don’t know if this is the place to go down the rabbit hole, but few more points on that.
(1) Obviously, to be justified, we’d need to avoid arbitrary claims about why a thing does not have a sufficient reason in itself and not from another.
(2) Also, obviously we’d need to avoid arbitrary claims that a thing has intrinsic sufficient reason. We cannot just say “because it is.” That’d be the equivalent of a brute fact which we’re trying to avoid. In the case of God, I (and others) claim, rational arguments can be presented such that it is understandable that it has sufficient reason, once the relevant background is grasped. It is rationally justifiable and follows from the material, so is not an arbitrary claim.
(3) I’d like to distinguish (in my terminology, anyway) a distinction between reason and cause. Causes are a subset of reasons, specifically causes are reasons that come from another.
Goodness for me would be things like ‘life, health, and freedom’
Natural law theory finds its explanation in the natures of things rather than just brute fact assertions, whether we try to explain why the natures are at all or not. Those things are good, but goodness more broadly (in inorganic and organic things, non-living or living) is obedience to nature. Or more technically the fulfillment of the natural appetites/tendencies of things, the actualization of potency.
l wouldn’t call them evils, they are just bad
I suppose much of the public use of the word evil would either refer to something egregiously bad, something morally bad, or something malevolent. In the Thomist tradition they’re basically just synonyms, and not for anything malevolent or even related to moral agency. It just means some privation of something that should be in a thing.
 
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They are based on logic. Authority is not needed for something to be absolute.

It doesn’t have to be mother,
Difference is that her getting an abortion would be more moral than just throwing the baby, Her taking the baby home means she accepted the role of a mother, throwing baby at that point would be immoral.
When you consent to sex, you don’t always consent to being pregnant

So, when you do something dangerous that has high risk of getting you hurt or killed, can doctors just reject you by saying ‘well, you accepted the risks’?
This would be determined by a cost benefit analysis, and logically abortion should only be ued as last resort if every other option has not worked. There would also be the question of whether the reason is enough of a justification.
 
l have fundamental problem with the idea of mixing goodness(attribute) with goodness(morality).
It does seem weird, especially on the basis of language, as that’s not how language is used.

Natural law theory also presupposes a design, which l have a problem with as it opens a philosophical can of worms so to say. (Which l did quite a long time researching)
Also, there are many versions of natural law theory.

One deeper problem l have with it has to do with the core idea of it ‘That humans can known right and wrong by observing our nature’, that is clearly no evident in the world.
Only people who had something similar to natural law were Aristotel and students of him, including Aquinas. While the idea is rejected by almost all modern thinkers.
 
It’s a fundamental disagreement on which is more important, life or sentience.
l prefer sentience, as it has more explanatory power, while not appealing to any specific religion
 
Yes… I just said that…?

I think you have too much going on in the thread to have a real conversation. In the end I reiterate my point above about arbitrary values. You say sentience (of some kind - you seem inconsistent), he says non-Jew, she says those who support communism, etc. What makes any of these better? Preference… then we just have power games. Like abortion.

Action follows being. Morality follows metaphysics. We must know what a human being is (if there are such things at all - maybe we are human doings, or just matter with a name attached for usefulness), and then study the ends of the order within humanity, if there are any, as individuals and as communities.

See you on another thread maybe.

-K
 
l prefer sentience, as it has more explanatory power
You said previously that there needs a justification to kill something even without sentience. Otherwise a sleeping person could be killed painlessly and that would be the end of it.
 
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l don’t think sentience is similar to those other attributes, sentience has a clear meaning behind it.
Also, l dislike the mix of metaphysics with ethics(especially normative), as it usually leads to a mess.

l start with the premise that pain and death are bad and that they should be avoided, so cause those things would be definition be immoral. Now, not all beings share same capacity to experience those things(sentience), so cause pain and death to beings who experience it on a higher level is worse than causing them on beings who experience it on a minimal level.

l hope l explained it well, my explanatory skills definitely have a room for improvemant.

l enjoyed talking with you and other people here, have a good day/night.
 
Being can feel pain without being sentient, and l want to reduce pain so yes.
l think that humans as the most sentient beings have the ability to consent, and going against consent is an act of harm as it goes against persons freedom.
Though l am still forming my views on this topic.
 
Women who doesn’t want a child benefits from more freedom and lack of suffering if she chooses to abort it.
While women who wants a child, but someone kills it, suffers both physically and mentally, and also didn’t consent to any of such actions.
Lets say the newborn has a learning disability that was not diagnosed in utero. The child will never be independant, but will likely outlive their parents. Are they morally entitled to kill the child to increase their freedom and spare themselves suffering?
 
Welcome back.

That depeneds, abortion would to be be justified as both parrents and people as a whole benefit from it,
If they are born than no, as there is always someone who will adopt/take care of said child.
 
Welcome back.

That depeneds, abortion would to be be justified as both parrents and people as a whole benefit from it,
If they are born than no, as there is always someone who will adopt/take care of said child.
So it’s not about moral worth then, but about the child needing the mother to survive?
 
It is about moral worth, but in this case l think that justifications are met. This has more to do with the violinist analogy, no being no matter how sentient it is has a right to live if that life reduces the freedom or damages another person.
 
Fetus can’t consent, consent principle applies only to being that can rationally consent(age depends on the type of consent),
 
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