Defense posts George Zimmerman photo from night of Trayvon Martin shooting

[dshix]

You have the right to make that assumption, of course.

Don’t be irrelevant.

 

[Seamus_L]

It has not been determined who started the altercation, and also, it seems that the prosecution has suggested that when Trayvon Martin, the slender High School football Cornerback began running to get away, the pudgy George Zimmerman was able to catch up with him.

 

[Geist]

It is a fight. You are going to punch someone in the face and probably bang their head against concrete when they are still fighting back.

The “high schooler” was bigger and had a history of violence…the baby faced photo the press used was years old.

Also Zimmerman was sucker punched. But facts are irrelevant here.

 

[dshix]

Irrelevant indeed.

 

[scipio337]

A person is dead because the grown man approached Martin aggressively. There is no way that the fight wouldn’t have started if Martin didn’t approach Trayvon aggressively and there is no way that someone on the phone with 911 pursuing someone “suspicious” would not be aggressive in their approach.

So what is your source that “Zimmerman approached Trayvon aggressively”?

If Zimmerman was following Martin at a distance for over 4 minutes (while he was on the phone with the 911 dispatcher), what was his motivation to suddenly confront Martin?

Zimmerman’s last contact with 911 dispatcher was at 7:13 pm:

Around 7:12 p.m. Zimmerman follows Trayvon. He says Trayvon is running toward the back entrance of the Retreat at Twin Lakes gated community. The dispatcher asks Zimmerman, “Are you following him?” Zimmerman responds, “Yes.” The dispatcher says, “OK, we don’t need you to do that.” The two discuss where police should come. Zimmerman gives an address.

7:13 p.m. Before ending the call, Zimmerman says, “I don’t know where this kid is. … Could you have them (police) call me, and I’ll tell them where I’m at.” The dispatcher confirms Zimmerman’s number and says police will call when they arrive.

usatoday30.usatoday.com/NEWS/usaedition/2012-04-12-trayvon-cover-timeline_ST_U.htm

Sometime around 7:16 pm, Trayvon Martin is shot.

What happened between 7:13 and 7:16 is speculation, we only have one account:

According to an Orlando Sentinel story later confirmed by Sanford police, Zimmerman tells authorities that after Zimmerman briefly lost track of Martin, the teen approached him. After the two exchange words, Zimmerman says, he reaches for his cell phone, and then Martin punches him in the nose. Zimmerman says Martin pins him to the ground and begins slamming his head into the sidewalk.

cnn.com/2012/04/23/justice/florida-zimmerman-timeline/index.html

Also, Zimmerman had a history of calling the police in the past, but also had no history of actually confronting people he was suspicious of:

Three weeks prior to the shooting, on February 2, 2012, Zimmerman called police to report a young man peering into the windows of an empty Twin Lakes home. Zimmerman was told a police car was on the way, and he followed protocol, awaiting their arrival. By the time police arrived, the suspect had fled. On February 6, 2012, workers witnessed two young black men lingering in the yard of a Twin Lakes resident around the same time her home was burglarized. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. The next day police discovered the stolen laptop in the backpack of a young black man, which led to his arrest. Zimmerman identified this young man as the same person he had spotted peering into windows on February 2

reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

I’m not sure where you have found the term “aggressively” in any of the police reports, etc, but it appears to be a lot of speculation on your part.

 

[qui_est_ce]

usatoday30.usatoday.com/NEWS/usaedition/2012-04-12-trayvon-cover-timeline_ST_U.htm

cnn.com/2012/04/23/justice/florida-zimmerman-timeline/index.html

reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

Right wing blogs. Just like I thought!!

 

[rorydaman]

Do you have evidence that this is what Mr. Zimmerman was doing?

I highly doubt that Zimmerman wanted to murder this kid. I would say the chance of that is about 0. But I do think that Zimmerman put himself in a knowingly dangerous situation knowing that he had a gun on him and he could use it if he “had to.” If Zimmerman had not pulled out his gun he probably would have taken a couple more punches and Martin would have walked away.

 

[rorydaman]

The “high schooler” was bigger and had a history of violence…the baby faced photo the press used was years old.

Also Zimmerman was sucker punched. But facts are irrelevant here.

Zimmerman was sucker punched? Where is your source for that? And if you approach someone in a threatening manner, which it is almost certain that Zimmerman did, you should have your guard up.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Zimmerman was sucker punched? Where is your source for that? And if you approach someone in a threatening manner, which it is almost certain that Zimmerman did, you should have your guard up.

Address post 7:13PM. Where was Martin?

 

[SamH]

Zimmerman was sucker punched? Where is your source for that? And if you approach someone in a threatening manner, which it is almost certain that Zimmerman did, you should have your guard up.

Source for claim?

 

[scipio337]

Zimmerman was sucker punched? Where is your source for that? And if you approach someone in a threatening manner, which it is almost certain that Zimmerman did, you should have your guard up.

The source that Zimmerman was “sucker punched”, Zimmerman’s statements to the Sanford Police:

According to an Orlando Sentinel story later confirmed by Sanford police, Zimmerman tells authorities that after Zimmerman briefly lost track of Martin, the teen approached him. After the two exchange words, Zimmerman says, he reaches for his cell phone, and then Martin punches him in the nose. Zimmerman says Martin pins him to the ground and begins slamming his head into the sidewalk.

cnn.com/2012/04/23/justice/florida-zimmerman-timeline/index.html

Where is your source that Zimmerman approached Martin “in a threatening manner”?

You must have a pretty good one, since you have stated “it is almost certain that Zimmerman did”.

 

[sw85]

If Mr. Zimmerman had accosted ME and tried to bully and strong-arm me, he’d have a lot more than a broken nose.

Jala

He didn’t “accost” anyone, unless you think you have a right to to dress shadily and walk through a crime-riddled neighborhood at night through people’s backyards without being followed by vigilant citizens the violation of which counts as being “accosted.”

According to George Zimmerman, who acted against the advice of the 911 operator in pursuing Trayvon Martin who was walking home and minding his own business!

There’s a couple things wrong with just this one sentence.

1. The exact words of the 911 operator were “We don’t need you to do that.” That’s not advice.
2. It’s not even a command. It has no legal force.
3. Being told this doesn’t magically make it illegal for you to shoot someone after you get attacked and your head slammed repeatedly into the pavement.
4. We don’t have a clear sense of the timeline, and since Zimmerman responded “OK,” it’s reasonable to assume he actually did stop following Martin after he was told this.
5. Since it was Martin who confronted Zimmerman, that supposition is doubly reasonable.

After reading a bunch of material about this case, I still don’t understand it.

On the phone call, Zimmerman claimed that Martin was escaping (note: escaping from nothing, as he had committed no crime), and then later Zimmerman claims to have been assaulted so at least in that sense it sure looks like Zimmerman was the aggressor. He really had no reason to pursue Martin.

Wait, what? Zimmerman using the word “escaping” means he was the aggressor? You realize the word “escape” means “getting away,” right?

We have lots, lots of evidence to the contrary. Namely, the phone records indicating that Martin confronted Zimmerman (or at least spoke first), and the testimony of several witnesses show Martin on top of Zimmerman repeatedly slamming his head into the pavement.

 

[sw85]

Exactly. Zimmerman got in Martin’s face and asked what he was doing in a threatening manner…Trayvon threw him a likely deserved beating and Zimmerman has to shoot a him because as a full grown adult he got beat up by a high schooler.

The phone records we have indicated Martin confronted Zimmerman, not vice-versa.

Following a suspicious person doesn’t merit ghetto-thuggery-style beatings. And you get that you can die from having your head slammed repeatedly into the pavement, right?

Martin should have walked away? Zimmerman shouldn’t have confronted him!

Again, Zimmerman didn’t confront Martin. We have phone records to this effect. Martin confronted Zimmerman and asked why he was following him. Only then did Zimmerman speak to him, asking him what he was doing there. That’s a valid question to ask a stranger dressed in dark clothes, wandering through people’s backyards in a crime-riddled neighborhood at night. It doesn’t merit a beating anywhere but in ghetto-thuggery revenge-fantasy land.

Are you unaware of the facts of the case or are you just deliberately misrepresenting them?

Why don’t you post a reliable source then because every source I have read said that Zimmerman was on the phone with 911, said he was pursuing martin for looking suspicious, 911 told him not to pursue him, he did anyway, and thats when the fight happened.

Google “zimmerman martin phone records.”

911 didn’t tell him not to pursue, by the way. 911 dispatchers aren’t cops, they have no legal authority. The dispatcher’s exact words were “we don’t need you to do that.” That’s not even a suggestion: it’s just a statement. Zimmerman’s response was “OK.”

Zimmerman confronted Martin. If Zimmerman didn’t confront him in a threatening way he wouldn’t have gotten beaten up and Martin wouldn’t be dead. And to be honest I don’t think that getting beaten up is reason enough to shoot a child.

Google “zimmerman martin phone records.”

So Zimmerman aggressively confronted what he thought was a gang member, knowing that he had a gun on him for protection, got beat up, and shot a child. And Zimmerman is innocent?

Zimmerman didn’t confront him. Martin confronted him.

And Martin isn’t a child in any reasonable sense of the word. He weighed more than I do, for Heaven’s sake, and I’m 27.

Bottom line is that Zimmerman approached Martin when 911 told him not to. He started the confrontation. You really think that if you are following someone that looks suspicious while on the phone with 911 you aren’t going to approach them aggressively? You think if Zimmerman went up to the kid nicely and said “hey, how are you doing. My name is George and I am on the neighborhood watch here. I didn’t recognize you and were just wondering what you were doing in the neighborhood” that Martin would have fought him? Of course not.

If you are chasing someone down on the phone with 911 and decide to approach them you are going to do it aggressively.

Again, 911 didn’t tell him not to. Dispatchers don’t have that authority. They told him they didn’t need him to and he answered “OK.” Since he claims he quit following Martin and went back to his car and Martin subsequently doubled back and confronted him, it’s reasonable to suppose that he stopped following him when 911 told him they didn’t him to follow the kid.

We know exactly how the confrontation started because we have phone records of it, and, hint, it started with Martin, not Zimmerman. Google “zimmerman martin phone records.”

One thing’s for sure - Zimmerman is an idiot! What did he expect to accomplish by following Martin on foot that he couldn’t have done by simply observing from the safety of his car?

Let’s think about what Zimmerman saw. He saw a black guy dressed in gang clothes, cutting through people’s backyards at night in a crime-riddled neighborhood. Very possibly he thought he could provide eyewitness testimony in the event his suspicions were confirmed and the kid turned out to be a burglar.

A person is dead because the grown man approached Martin aggressively. There is no way that the fight wouldn’t have started if Martin didn’t approach Trayvon aggressively and there is no way that someone on the phone with 911 pursuing someone “suspicious” would not be aggressive in their approach.

Again, I have to ask, are you unaware of the facts of the case or are you just deliberately misrepresenting them?

 

[Seamus_L]

I have a question I would like to ask everyone.

1.If conclusive evidence could be produced that George Zimmerman attempted to physically detain Trayvon Martin. Would you support a conviction against him ?

2.If conclusive evidence could be produced that Trayvon Martin physically asaulted George Zimmerman as the latter attempted to return to his vehicle, would you support Zimmerman’s acquittal ?
My answer to both questions would be YES.

 

[scipio337]

I have a question I would like to ask everyone.

1.If conclusive evidence could be produced that George Zimmerman attempted to physically detain Trayvon Martin. Would you support a conviction against him ?

Of manslaughter? Yes. Of 2nd degree murder? Not sure.

Seamus:

2.If conclusive evidence could be produced that Trayvon Martin physically asaulted George Zimmerman as the latter attempted to return to his vehicle, would you support Zimmerman’s acquittal ?

                         My answer to both questions would be YES.

I would claim yes for #2 also.

 

[ExCatholicGuy]

I have a question I would like to ask everyone.

1.If conclusive evidence could be produced that George Zimmerman attempted to physically detain Trayvon Martin. Would you support a conviction against him ?

2.If conclusive evidence could be produced that Trayvon Martin physically asaulted George Zimmerman as the latter attempted to return to his vehicle, would you support Zimmerman’s acquittal ?

                         My answer to both questions would be YES.

A definite Yes to both.

 

[dshix]

I have a question I would like to ask everyone.

1.If conclusive evidence could be produced that George Zimmerman attempted to physically detain Trayvon Martin. Would you support a conviction against him ?

2.If conclusive evidence could be produced that Trayvon Martin physically asaulted George Zimmerman as the latter attempted to return to his vehicle, would you support Zimmerman’s acquittal ?

                         My answer to both questions would be YES.

Yes to both.

 

[St_Francis]

Thats correct.

The problem with the “Stand Your Ground,” law is that a person can set up a situation where they can pull their gun and kill the opponent with the alibi that it was self-defense.

Jim

No, apparently not. From the text if the law itself:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—
*
The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
*
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

 

[ExCatholicGuy]

No, apparently not. From the text if the law itself:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—
*
The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
*
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

However, 2(a) would seem to fit the hypothetical scenario JimR proposed. An armed person could provoke an assault from an intended victim who is clearly much more capable physically, and thus have the requisite “reasonable belief” which would justify the use of deadly force.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

St Francis;

Use of force by aggressor.—
*
The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
*
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

All of which can be set up by the gunman and being the so-called aggressor is dead, we’ll only have the gunman’s side of the story, as in the Zimmerman case.

Jim