Define Born again

[Catholic4aReasn]

SPOKENWORD:

Okay heres my take[personal oppinion]. Born again means what it says. To be born again. Once from natural birth[flesh] and again by the power of the Holy Spirit.A new birth takes place spiritually inside us.This happens when we out of our free will we recieve Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Christians agree on WHAT being born again is (dying to onesself and becoming a new creation). What they disagree on is WHEN this occurs.

Paul specifically tells us that one is born again (dies and rises to new life) in baptism:

Romans 6:3-4 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

This is the most perfect explanation of what it means to be born again that scripture has to offer and Paul specifically says that this occurs when one is baptised. Elsewhere Paul also says that “whoever is in Christ is a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17)”. How does one get to be "in Christ? Paul tells us in Romans 6:3 that one is baptized into Christ.

John the Baptist’s baptism was one of repentence alone. It was merely symbolic of one’s intention to repent. This was nothing new. It didn’t suddenly appear with John the Baptist but had been practiced by the Jews for a long time as a ritual bath symbolizing one’s being made clean. Even the pagans practiced baptism. However, after the death and resurrection of Christ baptism completely changed. Now, when one is “baptised into Christ (Romans 6:3)” one is born again (Romans 6:3-4) by becoming a dwelling place of God himself (John 1:33, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:20-21).

Where do you believe that scripture teaches that one is made a new creation at the moment that one receives Jesus as Lord and Savior?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[mayra_hart]

this is an interesting article i found, i read it an as a catholic i found it useful. are catholics born again? Have you been born again?” the Fundamentalist at the door asks the unsuspecting Catholic. The question is usually a segue into a vast doctrinal campaign that leads many ill-instructed Catholics out of the Catholic Church. How? By making them think there is a conflict between the Bible and the Catholic Church over being “born again.” To be honest, most Catholics probably do not understand the expression “born again.”

“Have you been born again?” the Fundamentalist at the door asks the unsuspecting Catholic. The question is usually a segue into a vast doctrinal campaign that leads many ill-instructed Catholics out of the Catholic Church. How? By making them think there is a conflict between the Bible and the Catholic Church over being “born again.”

To be honest, most Catholics probably do not understand the expression “born again.” Yes, they believe in Jesus. And yes, they try to live Christian lives. They probably have some vague awareness that Fundamentalists think being “born again” involves a religious experience or “accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.” Many cradle Catholics, too, have had their moments of closeness to God, even of joy over God’s love and mercy. They may even have had “conversion experiences” of sorts, committing themselves to take their faith seriously and to live more faithfully as disciples of Jesus. But the cradle Catholic probably cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint any particular moment in his life when he dropped to his knees and “accepted Jesus” for the first time. As far back as he can recall, he has believed, trusted and loved Jesus as Savior and Lord. Does that prove he has never been “born again”? Not “the Bible way,” says the Fundamentalist. But the Fundamentalist is wrong there. He misunderstands what the Bible says about being “born again.” Unfortunately, few Catholics understand the biblical use of the term, either. As a result, pastors, deacons, catechists, parents and others responsible for religious education have their work cut out for them. It would be helpful, then, to review the biblical — and Catholic — meaning of the term “born again.”

 

[mayra_hart]

**BORN AGAIN" THE BIBLE WAY **

The only biblical use of the term “born again” occurs in John 3:3-5 — although, as we shall see, similar and related expressions such as “new birth” and ,regeneration” occur elsewhere in Scripture (Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:3, 23). In John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemus, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” The Greek expression translated “born again” (gennathei anothen) also means “born from above.” Jesus, it seems, makes a play on words with Nicodemus, contrasting earthly life, or what theologians would later dub natural life (“what is born of flesh”), with the new life of heaven, or what they would later call supernatural life (“what is born of Spirit”).

Nicodemus’ reply: “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” (John 3:4). Does he simply mistake Jesus to be speaking literally or is Nicodemus himself answering figuratively, meaning, “How can an old man learn new ways as if he were a child again?” We cannot say for sure, but in any case Jesus answers, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.”’ (John 3:5-7).

Here Jesus equates “born again” or “born from above” with “born of water and the Spirit.” If, as the Catholic Church has always held, being “born of water and the Spirit” refers to baptism, then it follows that being “born again” or “born from above” means being baptized. Clearly, the context implies that born of “water and the Spirit” refers to baptism. The Evangelist tells us that immediately after talking with Nicodemus, Jesus took his disciples into the wilderness where they baptized people (John 3:22). Furthermore, water is closely linked to the Spirit throughout John’s Gospel (for instance, in Jesus’ encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:9-13) and in the Johannine tradition (cf. 1 John 5:7). It seems reasonable, then, to conclude that John the Evangelist understands Jesus’ words about being “born again” and “born of water and the Spirit” to have a sacramental, baptismal meaning by mark brumley

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Maria G,

I have followed many of the refferences in this thread claiming to having the term “born again” in them. I do not find the term “born again” in any of these refferences. The only verse I know of with the term “born again” in it is John 3:3. In John 3:3 Jesus and Nicodemus are talking about being “begotten of God”. Many of the times the term “begotten of God” is used, it is used to descibe when Jesus is “begotten of God”. Scripture describes Jesus as being “begotten of God” upon His death and ressurection and not upon His baptism or His recieving the Penticostal Holy Spirit.

Please visit Jesus Loves God which takes a look at scriptures relating to Jesus being “begotten of God” or, as Nicodemus calls it, “born again”, upon His death and ressurection.

NAB ACT 13:32

“We ourselves announce to you the good news that what God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, in raising up Jesus, according to what is written in the second psalm, You are my son; this day I have begotten you.”

NAB PSA 2:4

He who is throned in heaven laughs; the LORD derides them; Then in anger he speaks to them; he terrifies them in his wrath: “I myself have set up my king on Zion, my holy mountain. I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: The LORD said to me, 'You are my son; this day I have begotten you. Ask of me and I will give you the nations for an inheritance and the ends of the earth for your possession. You shall rule them with an iron rod: you shall shatter them like an earthen dish.’” **NAB JOH 3:3 **

Jesus gave him this answer: “I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above.” “How can a man be born again once he is old?” retorted Nicodemus. “Can he return to his mother’s womb and be born over again?” Jesus replied: “I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God’s kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit.” NAB HEB 1:5 Messianic Enthronement.

To which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my son; today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be his father, and he shall be my son”? And again, when he leads his first-born into the world, he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him.”

**HEB 5:5 **
In the same way, it was not Christ who glorified himself in becoming high priest, but rather the one who said to him: "You are my son; this day I have begotten you";

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[edwinG]

SPOKENWORD:

With God all things are possible. Would God go against our free will.?

Hi Spoken word,
I have had a quick flick in the bible but I can not find the passage but it says that the children are covered by the parents baptism. I do not know if this refers to the water baptism or the spiritual baptism or both.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

MariaG:

You are right. Household does not mentions infant, but it does not exclude them either. However, history of the early church clearly shows how they interpreted the words.

Hippolytus

“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (*The Apostolic Tradition *21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Do you really think that a church 1800 years after the fact can more accurately interpret Scripture than those who talked to the apostles? Infant Baptism is Biblical and historical for the Christian Church.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

Hi Maria,
I cant see that this post is relevant to the discussion. Even Peter who was an apostle made mistakes. And he was the head of the apostles in Jerusalem when members of the apostles and elders sent teachers who taught circumcision.
To say that the church then was more accurate is an opinion. And 1800 years ,makes no difference as you know. IT is what the Holy Spirit reveals.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

MariaG:

Spokenword,

I just wanted to tell you I in no way deny your born again experience. I too at one time would have said I was born again in September of 1991. Now, I realize that born again is Baptism. I had a born again experience. Respectfully, you are changing the Biblical meaning of born again to deny that to be born again is baptism. Baptism is regenerative and has been taught that way since the time of the apostles.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

Hi Maria,
Look at Acts 11:15. “And as I began to speak to them the Holy Spirit fell on them, as upon us at the beginning.”
What happened to these people? Do you class these people as born again or not.
and in Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, " Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings and the children of Israel."
lay on of hands, filled with the Holy Spirit then.
Ananias to Saul ( Paul) "Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales and he received his sight at once and he arose and was baptised.
Again how do you see the sequence.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

MariaG:

But this is the topic. What does born again mean? You say that an infant cannot be born again. You believe baptism is a symbol. This is directly against the practices and beliefs of the early church. We both can cite Scripture to support our view. Whose interpretation then is correct?

The history of the early church clearly show the regenertive belief of baptism as well as the baptism of infants.

Show me someone in the early Church that was not pronounced a heretic and said baptism is only a symbol and no infants should be baptized and born again into the family of God.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

Hi Maria,
This thread is really about the catholic church as your line of defence is that the early church cant be wrong . I suppose in a way catholics use the previous age to support the next age and so on to present time. This thread is only using " born again’ as a means of saying the catholic church is always right: because they are the parameters you have set. Not scripture. We are all aware that their was a lot of false teaching very early in the church. Now you could not be a catholic and stand up and say they are wrong or mistaken. That is accepted.
If the discussion cant go to talking about scripture, it seems to boil down to the roman catholic church’s opinion and those not of the catholic church disagree on some issues.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Todd_Easton]

edwinG:

Hi Spoken word,
I have had a quick flick in the bible but I can not find the passage but it says that the children are covered by the parents baptism. I do not know if this refers to the water baptism or the spiritual baptism or both.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think the passage your were referring to is 1 Cor 7:14: 12To the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. 13If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband is consecrated [sanctified/made holy] through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is they are holy. 15But if the unbelieving partner desires to separate, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. For God has called us to peace. 16Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?

This is an obscure passage. If this is the verse you had in mind and it means “children are covered by the parents baptism” as you suggest, then it would also mean that “the unbelieving husband” is covered by his wife’s baptism. This passage may simply mean that, as long as the unbelieving partner consents to remain married to the believing partner, Church recognizes their marriage as a valid marriage before God, thus their children are considered legitimate in the eyes of the Church.

The other passage that comes to mind is Acts 2:38-39:38And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

If this is the passage you had in mind and it meant that “the children are covered by the parents baptism” as you suggest, then it would also mean that “**all **that are far off” (where *all *means every human being, every man, woman and child) are also covered by the baptism of a few in Jerusalem.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

SPOKENWORD:

I dont have the all the answers,But I do know this. I know who I was and I know who I am now. I can only speak from what Christ did for Me. I am born again. The old is gone and the new [spirit of Christ] is in me. Water baptism was a symbol of being washed and the blood of Christ is what we have been saved by. thumbsup: God Bless

Hi SPOKENWORD!

I have no doubt that Christ has done something in you. Praise God for that!! However, this thread is about defining “born again”. I think when we use terms from scripture it’s important to use them as the writer’s meant them to avoid misunderstanding. Where do you believe that scripture, or anyone prior to the Reformation, teaches that we become a new creation when we receive Jesus as Lord and Savior? Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[MariaG]

Hi Maria,
This thread is really about the catholic church as your line of defence is that the early church cant be wrong . I suppose in a way catholics use the previous age to support the next age and so on to present time. This thread is only using " born again’ as a means of saying the catholic church is always right: because they are the parameters you have set. Not scripture. We are all aware that their was a lot of false teaching very early in the church. Now you could not be a catholic and stand up and say they are wrong or mistaken. That is accepted.
If the discussion cant go to talking about scripture, it seems to boil down to the roman catholic church’s opinion and those not of the catholic church disagree on some issues.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

Not true Edwin. Coming from the background that I did, I kind of came at it differently than most Catholics. I believe the Bible 100%. I believe there is no contradictions in the Bible. It is 100% accurate as God’s inspired word. Would you agree?

The Bible tells us that the Church will be a pillar of foundation and truth. The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth. While there were those who *tried *to falsely teach or like in the case of Peter, failed to practice what he knew to be the revealed truth. But the Early Church successfully defeated all false teachings. If this is not true, then Scripture is false when it says He will lead us to all truth.

The history of the Early Church shows that baptism is considered to be regenerative and infants should get baptized. This has been the consistent teachings of all Christians. Even during the Reformation, this teaching was not in dispute.

So if Christians were wrong about this until the 1800’s or so, then the Holy Spirit did not lead the us to all truth for 1800 years? The Church was not a pillar and foundation of truth until 1800’s? This would mean Scripture is a lie.

My arguments about Baptism are firmly rooted in Scripture. If the Catholic Church is wrong, Scripture lies. Although most Catholics would not word it this way, Regenerative, infant baptism is based on Scripture and history (tradition) validates this interpretation.

Catholic teachings of baptism are firmly Scriptural and more, they are apostlic.

**I would ask you, do you think the early Church fell into false teachings about regenerative infant baptism and was not rescued from that falsehood until the last several hundred years? If yes, how do you then interpret Scripture that tells us that the Church is a pillar and foundation of truth if the only Christian Church around, the Catholic Church, taught falsehood for 1000 years ? **

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

MariaG:

Although most Catholics would not word it this way, Regenerative, infant baptism is based on Scripture and history (tradition) validates this interpretation.

Hi Maria!

Catholics can’t word it this way because it’s not quite right. The Church can’t base her teaching on baptism on Scripture because her teaching on baptism predates Scripture. They couldn’t base their teaching on something that didn’t yet exist. What is in Scripture on baptism is based on what the Church taught first.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

MariaG:

Not true Edwin. Coming from the background that I did, I kind of came at it differently than most Catholics. I believe the Bible 100%. I believe there is no contradictions in the Bible. It is 100% accurate as God’s inspired word. Would you agree?

The Bible tells us that the Church will be a pillar of foundation and truth. The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth. While there were those who *tried *to falsely teach or like in the case of Peter, failed to practice what he knew to be the revealed truth. But the Early Church successfully defeated all false teachings. If this is not true, then Scripture is false when it says He will lead us to all truth.

The history of the Early Church shows that baptism is considered to be regenerative and infants should get baptized. This has been the consistent teachings of all Christians. Even during the Reformation, this teaching was not in dispute.

So if Christians were wrong about this until the 1800’s or so, then the Holy Spirit did not lead the us to all truth for 1800 years? The Church was not a pillar and foundation of truth until 1800’s? This would mean Scripture is a lie.

My arguments about Baptism are firmly rooted in Scripture. If the Catholic Church is wrong, Scripture lies. Although most Catholics would not word it this way, Regenerative, infant baptism is based on Scripture and history (tradition) validates this interpretation.

Catholic teachings of baptism are firmly Scriptural and more, they are apostlic.

**I would ask you, do you think the early Church fell into false teachings about regenerative infant baptism and was not rescued from that falsehood until the last several hundred years? If yes, how do you then interpret Scripture that tells us that the Church is a pillar and foundation of truth if the only Christian Church around, the Catholic Church, taught falsehood for 1000 years ? **

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[exrc]

To all,

,12Yet to all who** received** him, to those who** believed** in his name, he gave the right to become children of God– 13children born not of natural descent,a] nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born (begotten) of God. John 1:12-13

Here is how we are born again, not by water baptism. It is our own faith, no one can believe in Jesus for you. You are now Jesus’ brother or sister, and the Father’s adopted son or daughter. Begotten of the Father. YOU ARE HIS!! YOU BELONG TO HIM!

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not** belong**

to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.Romans 8:9-11
** Here we see that you do not belong to Christ ( or are born again ) unless we are temples of the Holy Spirit.** He makes our spirit alive instantaneously, which was previously dead.

---

43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes

in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts 10&version=31;#fen-NIV-27294b”)] and praising God. Acts 10:43-46
**Here we have the second birth as justification( the forgiveness of sins) by belief only, not water baptism. **

Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.Acts 10:47

Here we have more proof that water baptism does not cause spiritual birth.

6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-26117b”)]** gives birth to spirit**. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘Youc] must be born again.(John 3:6-7)

Here we see that we are born spiritually dead. Your spirit must become alive before you physically die or you will go to hell.

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us

new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade–kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.1 Peter 1:3-5 Here we see how the second birth gives us eternal security upon the initial reception of it.

exrc

 

[exrc]

To summarize my previous post,

Let me say that born again is defined as the exact moment that the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the family of God when you believe (trust) in Christ. Your spirit was dead, now it is alive. You were dead in your sins and not righteous, now you are forgiven,and alive in Christ,and fully righteous.Your citizenship is now in heaven.

God has procured eternal life for you, never to be revoked. He will not kill the spirits of those who have been made alive in Christ! EVER!

God is good!! amen

exrc

 

[Fiat]

Dear Exrc:

Muslims believe in Christ. Are they born again?

In faith,
Fiat

 

[exrc]

Fiat:

Dear Exrc:

Muslims believe in Christ. Are they born again?

In faith,
Fiat

Are you serious?!? Thats all you have to say about my post? Did you actually read any of it?

When you have a mature question I promise I will answer you.

exrc

 

[Fiat]

Dear exrc:

Of course I’m serious. There are a number of non-catholics who insist that salvation comes through “belief,” but I have yet to hear one of these non-catholics explain what it means to believe. Since salvation is a pretty significant topic, I would think that these types of non-catholics could at least explain what belief entails. Jesus has quite a bit to say about what salvation involves, and although belief is mentioned, God’s Holy Word says a great deal more than just “belief,” if by “belief” you mean the mere act of making an opinion for yourself.

I left my fundamental, evangelical church to come into the fullness of the truth as the Holy Spirit preserved it for us in the Holy Catholic Church. I left because whenever I asked my fellow fundamental, evangelical brothers or sisters what they thought belief meant, they either dismissed me with flippancy, as you have done here, or they have given my a list of answers as varied as names above protestant church doors.

Praise God I’m Catholic!

In faith,
Fiat

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

exrc:

Let me say that born again is defined as the exact moment that the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the family of God when you believe (trust) in Christ.

Defined by whom and recorded where?

In scripture being “born again”, “raised to newness of life”, “regenerated” or any number of ways of saying the same thing is only equated to that which occurs through water baptism. The same can be said of the writings of the early Christians. No exceptions. No refutations.

Who, then, has defined born again as “the exact moment that the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the family of God when you believe (trust) in Christ”? By what authority has this person done so and where is it recorded?

This is a serious question.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Fiat]

Dear Exrc:

You stated:

born again is defined as the exact moment that the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the family of God when you believe (trust) in Christ

However, the Bible flatly contradicts what you just said. In Acts 19:1-7, there are men who are described as “believers.” They are also described as “disciples.” Now, based on your definition of “born again,” we should be able to conclude that these men have received the Holy Spirit. However, the Bible says otherwise. These men did not receive the Holy Spirit until they were baptized and Paul laid his hands on them. So, your conclusion that “when you believe” is when you receive the Holy Spirit, is misleading at best.

In Faith,
Fiat