Define "Supremacy"

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Dear Hagia Sophia,

I agree with Father A’s post #311 completely. Jews did murder Christians in those early days (hence, some Fathers called Jews murderers), and it is also true, as you say, that many of their statements are not anti-semitic, but merely anti-Judaizing (i.e., theological in nature), but we cannot casually defend the generalizations that some Fathers made about the Jews back then, and much less some of their characterizations (e.g., “hated of God,” “murderers of God,”et al).

God bless,

Greg
 
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GAssisi:
I assure you there are Eastern Catholic priests that are married and serve in the North American territories
From Irish Melkite:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=150140&postcount=112

Actually, the Ukrainains in the US have not yet ordained any married priests, although there are indications that they intend to do so shortly. Rumor has it that their seminary in DC has been remodeled to accomodate families. The Ukrainians in Canada have ordained; I don’t believe the Slovak jurisdiction there has done so.

My eparchy’s website notwithstanding, it’s not quite accurate to say that there was no “approval or disapproval by Rome” of the earliest Canadian ordinations. Some of the ordinands were suspended from priestly faculties for a time and there were veiled suggestions that there would be disciplinary action against the hierarch involved; for a time, an Apostolic Visitator was in put in place, effectively creating 2 opposing jurisdictional entities in Toronto and generating quite a bit of controversy among the laity there
 
Dear Father,

Thanks for the info on the married clergy. I guess there is some improvement since whereas before, no married clergy were allowed period, they are now at least allowed to serve in the United States if they were ordained (married) in the patriarchal territories. I’m glad the Eastern Catholics are being more forceful in their restoration of this discipline. If the Vatican meant their original directive that the prescription was temporary for the sake of the sensibilities of North American Catholics (Latin Rite), they should have no problem since even in North America, there are married clergy who have converted from Anglicanism or Lutheranism. I note with favor that no actual disciplinary action was instituted against the Canadian heirarch.

God bless,

Greg
 
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GAssisi:
Father Ambrose, and I believe all the Orthodox who participate here (perhaps not Matthew), are aware of the definition of “invincible ignorance.” I have used that term three or four times to explain why Catholics do not regard Orthodox as heretics - not one has ever chided me for the explanation. And I have never directly told someone on this board that they are in fact invincibly ignorant
O Greg! Give up! You’re just digging the hole deeper :whacky: And I am truly writing that with a friendly smile 🙂

I have been very glad to learn that “heresy” somehow evaporates after the first or second generation and is transmuted into “invincible ignorance.” It seems a very kind Catholic doctrine 🙂
 
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GAssisi:
the Church of the Ukraine has made several moves to establish a separate jurisdiction from the Russian Orthodox Church, but the powers that be of that Church have consistently refused to allow their independence. It seems that whatever it is you are (falsely) accusing the Catholic Church of in North America, the Russian Orthodox is actually guilty of in their own backyard.
No, there is a lack of comprehension here of the situation.

There is ONE canonical Church in the Ukraine which is by far the largest. At the present time it is an autonomous Church -this means that it elects all its own bishops and runs its own affairs with the exception that the election of its Primate needs confirmation from its Mother Church, Moscow. Apart from that it is independent.

Autonomy is the last step to full autocephaly, and this will be granted to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, most likely when it has resolved the problems with the two schismatic groups which are significantly smaller and the Orthodox in the Ukraine are united in one canonical Church again. This makes sense, does it not?

Now here is something from a Catholic source which you can trust 🙂

cnewa.org/ecc-ukrainian-orth-patriar.htm

"…there are three separate Orthodox jurisdictions in Ukraine.
  1. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church still linked to the Moscow Patriarchate (headed by Metropolitan Volodymyr Sabodan) had **10,384 parishes ** according to Ukrainian government statistics released in early 2004. Its headquarters is at the Monastery of the Caves (Pecherska Lavra) in Kiev.
  2. Next is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kievan Patriarchate headed by Patriarch Filaret, which has 3,395 parishes. It is based at St. Volodymyr Church in Kiev.
  3. The **Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church ** is the smallest, with 1,156 parishes, mostly in western Ukraine.
 
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GAssisi:
And I have never directly told someone on this board that they are in fact invincibly ignorant
Well I am certainly glad to hear it.
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GAssisi:
Exactly what education do you propose I receive?
I wasn’t proposing any - I was merely curious as to whether or not you had been Catholic school educated as your “apologetics” style seems - well, let me just say “different”.
 
Married Clergy

On Saturday, December 20, 1996, Bishop John Elya [defied the Vatican - Fr A] ordained the first married American priest for the American Melkite Church.

An interesting article on Bishop Elya’s challenge to the Vatican…

catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Igpress/CWR/CWR0397/USA.html

**A Quiet Revolution **

The ordination of a married man into the priesthood of the Melkite Church in the United States has triggered some far-ranging discussions of Eastern traditions and ecumenical prospects.

By William Bole

“We are unchanged; we are still the same as we were in the eighth century… Oh that you could only consent to be again what you were once, when we were both united in faith and communion!” -Alexis Khomiakov
 
Dear Father,

Your humor is always refreshing. If you want to call yourself a heretic, that’s your choice. But for the sake of readers who may be unintentionally misled by your humor, I’d best respond with an explanation.

Let me start off with an analogy. Imagine a poor person is brought to court because he took some food that was not his without paying for it for his family who was on the verge of starvation. Regardless of circumstances, the person’s act by definition would be regarded as theft. The person is brought to court, but because of the mitigating circumstance of his situation, the judge does not declare him a thief and send him to jail.

Now, according to the rationale of Father’s humorous statement, because he was not declared a thief, the act of taking something that is not yours without paying for it would no longer be regarded as theft regardless of circumstances. One obviously sees the ludicrousness of that proposition (which is why Father presented it as a joke).

Though the previous analogy involves the realm of civil jurisprudence with regards to physical crime, the same thing applies in the realm of theology with regards to heresy. The key is the mitigating circumstance. In the realm of theology, this mitigating circumstance is called invincible ignorance. A heresy is a heresy is a heresy (just as theft is theft is theft), but whether one is convicted of heresy depends on the whether one is invincibly ignorant or not. If one is invincibly ignorant of heresy, one cannot be convicted of the sin of heresy (i.e., called a heretic) even if one’s belief is objectively heretical (just as the poor person objectively stole, but was not convicted of the crime of theft because of his mitigating circumstance).

Invincible ignorance can be caused by several factors. For our discussion, only one needs concern us – habitual ignorance. Habitual ignorance is that ignorance caused by constant and consistent lack of exposure to the knowledge of faith. It may also be the case that a person not only lacks exposure to correct faith, but is also indoctrinated and constantly exposed to an alternative faith. It is to be expected that such a person, if one day coming upon the correct faith, will on first impression, either due to a perception of alienation or to a mental obligation towards one’s existing beliefs, reject the correct faith. In effect, the ignorance is invincible – that is, cannot be reasonably overcome. Such a person with invincible ignorance will not be held morally culpable for rejection of the correct faith, and would not be guilty of the sin of heresy.

To be more explicit, pretend we are at a time when the Church was still one. A portion splits from the Church due to a heresy. I do not doubt that that first generation subscribing to the heresy, perhaps even the second generation, would be guilty of heresy because a knowledgeable rejection of the true faith has occurred. Afterwards, children are reared up in that schismatic Church, and all these children will ever hear, and their children after them and so on, will be their own version the faith, with either no exposure to the true faith, or an exposure to a mere polemic caricature of the true faith. In this case, they believe what they believe not because they reject the true faith, but because they were brought up in a different faith. Such people are and will be invincibly ignorant and are thus not culpable of the heresy of the first generation.

There are other factors involved as well, of course. The most relevant ones for our topic are malice and desire to be ignorant. If these mental conditions are present, invincible ignorance is no longer applicable, and the person can indeed be regarded a heretic.

God bless,

Greg
 
Dear Father,

Thank you for the information. Question:

Is the confirmation you speak of analogous to the request for communion observed by the Catholic Church between a new Patriarch and the Pope, or is it analogous to the confirmation by the Pope of new Eastern bishops installed outside their Patriarchal boundary?

God bless,

Greg
 
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GAssisi:
Such a person with invincible ignorance will not be held morally culpable for rejection of the correct faith, and would not be guilty of the sin of heresy.
This is all so new to me.

So rather then heretical I should start saying invincibly ignorant?

In the whole world there are 1,092,853,000 invincibly ignorant Catholics, 364,530,000 invincibly ignorant Protestants, and 79,988,000 invincibly ignorant Anglicans.

That’s a whole lot of ignorance 👍

“We are unchanged; we are still the same as we were in the eighth century… Oh that you could only consent to be again what you were once, when we were both united in faith and communion!” -Alexis Khomiakov
 
Dear Hagia Sophia,

I did not go to a Catholic school, but was brought up Protestant. May I inquire as to the relevance? I am not easily jostled, so don’t worry.

God bless,

Greg
 
Dear Father,

I certainly do not expect you to adopt a tenet you do not agree with. You are welcome to call us heretics if you like; it is just that we do not regard YOU as heretics. Of course, the reason it doesn’t faze me that you regard Catholics as heretics is because I believe the basis for your accusation is that very same misunderstanding of the Catholic faith by which I can say that YOU are NOT a heretic.

I wouldn’t say there are a lot of ignorant people in the world. The word “ignorance” has deprecatory connotations that is not contained in the term “invincible ignorance.” That was a funny statement, though.

God bless,

Greg
 
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GAssisi:
Is the confirmation you speak of analogous to the request for communion observed by the Catholic Church between a new Patriarch and the Pope, or is it analogous to the confirmation by the Pope of new Eastern bishops installed outside their Patriarchal boundary?
Neither really.

Autonomous status is a sign that the Church in question is mature enough to manage its own administrative affairs and it is a major step on the way to full ecclesial independance - so you can see that it is not analogous to either of the two Catholic situations.

It is a stage on the way to autocephaly when the Church will be accepted by all the other autocephalous Churches as an equal and its Primate will be the equivalent of any of the Patriarchs of the more ancient Churches.

Autonomy explained on the CNEWA site
cnewa.org/ecc-autonomous.htm

Autocephaly - on the same site
cnewa.org/ecc-autocephalous.htm

“We are unchanged; we are still the same as we were in the eighth century… Oh that you could only consent to be again what you were once, when we were both united in faith and communion!” -Alexis Khomiakov
 
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GAssisi:
The word “ignorance” has deprecatory connotations that is not contained in the term “invincible ignorance.”
Do you think so? If the teacher said someone’s son was ignorant and then, one year later, said he was not just ignorant but invincibly ignorant, I would say that the level of deprecation has increased markedly 😃
 
Dear Father,

I was aware of the difference between autocephaly and autonomy. I am asking about the nature of the “confirmation” you spoke of when you wrote: “the election of its Primate needs confirmation from the Mother Church.”

BTW, as I have said before (in different words), I certainly trust you when you speak of matters about Orthodoxy – it is only your presentation of Catholic matters that I sometimes question and for which I would require proof.

God bless,

Greg

P.S. Are you apprised of the biblical and patristic evidence for the principle of invincible ignorance? A lot of it is from the Eastern Fathers.
 
Dear Father,

That was a great pun about invincible ignorance! Do I have your permission to use it sometime?

God bless,

Greg
 
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GAssisi:
Are you apprised of the biblical and patristic evidence for the principle of invincible ignorance?
I seem to remember that Saint Augustine taught that invincible ignorance leads to damnation, so he was not as liberal as you.

Let me find what he wrote:

They who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they are unable on account of youth to hear, that bath of regeneration, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. “For all have sinned” whether in Adam or in themselves “and come short of the glory of God.

and Augustine damsn even those whose ignorance results from simple ignorance:

But even the ignorance, which is not theirs who refuse to know, but theirs who are, as it were, simply ignorant, does not so far excuse any one as to exempt him from the punishment of eternal fire, though his failure to believe has been the result of his not having at all heard what he should believe; but probably only so far as to mitigate his punishment.

Augustine, Nature and Grace

And now google.com has turned up this which does not touch on invincible ignorance per se but is quite ghastly:

The Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, replied: “It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned.”
 
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GAssisi:
To be more explicit, pretend we are at a time when the Church was still one. A portion splits from the Church due to a heresy. I do not doubt that that first generation subscribing to the heresy, perhaps even the second generation, would be guilty of heresy because a knowledgeable rejection of the true faith has occurred. Afterwards, children are reared up in that schismatic Church, and all these children will ever hear, and their children after them and so on, will be their own version the faith, with either no exposure to the true faith, or an exposure to a mere polemic caricature of the true faith. In this case, they believe what they believe not because they reject the true faith, but because they were brought up in a different faith. Such people are and will be invincibly ignorant and are thus not culpable of the heresy of the first generation
You seem to be very generous in your application of these principles.

But the modern Popes take a much more strict approach and certainly say that salvation is not possible for such people as those you describe above…

Pope Pius XII:

“O Mary Mother of Mercy and Refuge of Sinners! We beseech thee to look with pitying eyes on poor heretics and schismatics. Do thou, who art the Seat of Wisdom, enlighten the minds wretchedly enfolded in the darkness of ignorance and sin, that they may clearly recognize the Holy, Catholic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither sanctity nor salvation can be found.”

The Raccolta, 1957, No. 626. The prayer was also indulgenced by Pope Pius IX.
 
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HagiaSophia:
Well I’m not Fr. Ambrose, but I can tell you this, if I was invited into your home or at a meeting and had to interface with you, and you had the poor judgment to call me invincibly ignorant, I’d get up and leave the room. As I have remarked to you before, and as I believe others have gently intimated, it ain’t always what you do, sometimes it is HOW you do it.

Do you think that when the Pope talks to the patriarchs he tells them when they point out the difficulties and questions and reservations tht they have, “well, you are invincibly ignorant”? Dear Heavens - may I ask— did you have a Catholic education?
Dear HagiaSophia,

“invincibly ignorant” comes up when salvation is discussed. Who is to be saved? It is a brief explanation of how someone can be saved without being a member of Christ’s true church, the Catholic Church. For purposes of better apologetics, and so that I may not turn off others when my purpose is to get them back to the fold, how do i phrase invincibly ignorant in better terms?
 
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