Definition of faith: Catholic and Protestant

[lanman87]

What? Where did you get this?

From the formula I’ve seen several times that to Catholics Justification=Faith+Works. Would you agree that is an accurate formula?

 

[TULIPed]

Forgive the momentary deviation, but I couldn’t resist. This guy was a beast in blue and white:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

And now back to your regularly scheduled debate. (Before anyone flags me - Lacrosse was discovered by a Catholic Monk ministering to the Iriquois and it literally means “the cross” - so this is about faith…somewhat indirectly.)

 

[HopkinsReb]

mrsdizzyd:

What? Where did you get this?

From the formula I’ve seen several times that to Catholics Justification=Faith+Works. Would you agree that is an accurate formula?

For it to be accurate you’re going to have to spend some time hammering away at the differences in how Catholics and Protestants define and relate sanctification and justification. Because if I understand correctly, if we’re using the term “justification” the way that it is typically used in Protestant theology, that would not be the Catholic formulation.

 

[lanman87]

I am with my undergrad alma mater, Ole Miss.

Wow, I didn’t think there were anything but Southern Baptist and Church of Christ in Mississippi (says the guy from Alabama). My oldest son is at Auburn and I know several kids who went to Ole Miss. It is an beautiful campus and great collegiate atmosphere.

 

[HopkinsReb]

Loads of Presbyterians in MS, too. Most of my friends from Mississippi who left the state (as I did) are Presbyterians. The liberal folks are PCUSA and the conservatives PCA, but pretty much all Presbyterians of one stripe or another.

 

[TULIPed]

Has ECO made inroads in MS?

 

[lanman87]

For it to be accurate you’re going to have to spend some time hammering away at the differences in how Catholics and Protestants define and relate sanctification and justification.

I would say that the person who gave that formula would mean Final Justification to Catholics. As I’ve tried to pull back the layers of Catholicism (which there are many), it is my understanding that Catholics believe initial justification is completely a work of grace apart from our effort. But final justification is a combination of faith and works, but those works are actually not our works but are works we do because of the grace we have received, (or something like that).

 

[HopkinsReb]

I’ll DM. Let’s not hijack the thread too bad.

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

For it to be accurate you’re going to have to spend some time hammering away at the differences in how Catholics and Protestants define and relate sanctification and justification.

I would say that the person who gave that formula would mean Final Justification to Catholics. As I’ve tried to pull back the layers of Catholicism (which there are many), it is my understanding that Catholics believe initial justification is completely a work of grace apart from our effort. But final justification is a combination of faith and works, but those works are actually not our works but are works we do because of the grace we have received, (or something like that).

As I understand it, the Catholic Church says that our salvation comes from that work of grace apart from our effort (except insofar as we seek out that grace, i.e. through the sacraments). Justification then includes both the unearned forgiveness of sins (our acquittal, if you will), through repentance, and our gradual conformation to God’s will, which is effected through the three gifts of grace, namely faith, hope, and works. Thus the doctrine of Purgatory: that process begins in our life through those gifts of grace, but we die with our perfection incomplete, so something must happen after our death and before our entrance into heaven to complete that justification (so here justification includes both being declared just, i.e. having our sins forgiven, and being made just).

edited for clarity

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I heard an ex-protestant pastor, now Catholic theologian, explain the difference between Catholic and protestant salvation this way:

Sin is like a car accident. The car is heavily damaged and can no longer run.

Per protestant theology God covers the car with a huge cover and declares it fixed.

In Catholic theology God takes the car and actually repairs it and makes it whole again. The process of repairs taking the lifetime of the car.

That theology fits in with how I was taught in both protestant and Catholic churches.

 

[JonNC]

I heard an ex-protestant pastor, now Catholic theologian, explain the difference between Catholic and protestant salvation this way:

Sin is like a car accident. The car is heavily damaged and can no longer run.

Per protestant theology God covers the car with a huge cover and declares it fixed.

In Catholic theology God takes the car and actually repairs it and makes it whole again. The process of repairs taking the lifetime of the car.

That theology fits in with how I was taught in both protestant and Catholic churches

Well, I’ve been “protestant” all of my life, and I was not taught that way. I was taught not just justification, but also sanctification.
As an example, these are the words spoken by the pastor at my confirmation:

The Father in heaven, for Jesus’ sake, renew and increase in you the gift of the Holy
Ghost, to your strengthening faith, to your growth in grace, to your patience in
suffering, and to the blessed hope of eternal life.

Let me know if you think that sounds like a car covered with a tarp.

So, just so people are not confused into believing this is what all “protestants” believe, what kind of “protestant” were you, and was the individual you referenced?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I belonged to many different denominations throughout the years. It was many, many years of searching and studying.

The anaology is based on “declared righteous” which comes from Romans 5:1.

Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is not a horrible analogy. I didn’t say tarp but a cover. The cover being Christ’s righteousness.

From what I was taught as a protestant was we are made righteous by God by faith alone. I heard very few sermons on growing in holiness or sanctification but was instructed on avoiding sin and walking with the Lord, which is good, yes. In all those years, though, in protestant theology I was taught, absolutely nothing a Christian does has any bearing on their salvation, which is different than Catholic theology, which teaches that our deeds do have a bearing on our salvation.

For example - Martin Luther quotes -He has emptied Himself of His righteousness that He might clothe us with it and fill us with it;

and

“the righteousness of God is revealed by the gospel, the passive righteousness with which the merciful God justifies us by faith”

“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.”

“It does not matter what people do; it only matters what they believe."

“Good works are bad and are sin like the rest.”

Compared to Catholic Catechism 1987:

The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism

CCC 1991:
With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

CCC 1992:
Justification is conferred in baptism , the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

 

[JonNC]

I belonged to many different denominations throughout the years. It was many, many years of searching and studying.

The anaology is based on “declared righteous” which comes from Romans 5:1.

Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is not a horrible analogy. I didn’t say tarp but a cover. The cover being Christ’s righteousness.

From what tradition did these many denominations spring? Are they of the Reformed / Calvinist tradition? What about the individual you referenced?
It is important because the term Protestant when speaking of doctrine and practice has no meaning.

It is a horrible analogy, and comes across as flippant and dismissive.
I’m aware of the reference. It expresses the truth that all righteousness comes from God, not an excuse to disobey His commands, not an excuse to ignore the second great commandment.

From what I was taught as a protestant was we are made righteous by God by faith alone.

At best, incomplete. We are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Whether one believes righteousness is infused or imputed, it is His righteousness. Either way, growth in that grace is necessary. Part of that growth includes doing the good works He has prepared for us to do.
Refusing to do so is a rejection of grace. Surely a rejection of grace can result in a loss of faith.
Works themselves do not save, for salvation is only by grace. I quoted Luther’s commentary on Galatians 5:6.

“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.”

“It does not matter what people do; it only matters what they believe."

“Good works are bad and are sin like the rest.”

These are entirely accurate. Luther’s claim here is to guard against claiming that works will save.
Just as dangerous is the idea that faith excuses is from doing good works.
Cheap grace and works righteousness are equally dangerous.

The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism

Amen.

With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

Again, amen

Justification is conferred in baptism , the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

I have never entirely understood the distinction between this and what is quoted regarding the scripture that claims we are declared righteous.
It seems a distinction without a difference.

 

[MichaelP3]

The Puritans after all were Calvinists, and we know they were not casual sinners.

I only read this part now. And it is saying so much. Yes, the Puritans were definitely not the “I can do whatever I want to and sin so much because I am saved”.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It is not flippant, nor was it meant to be flippant at all. I’m sorry that you took it that way. It was just meant to show the difference between two different theologies.

As far as the denominations I followed or I should say searched through, well, it was quite a few over many years. I realize there are many different thoughts and ideas of theology in protestantism. I worked in a protestant multi-denominational setting and attended many different types of services and yes it is true the differences are many but none of the protestant denominations believe the same as the Catholic church in how we are saved or what the Catholic church teaches regarding works and one of the biggest words that causes the differences is the word “alone”. We are saved by both faith and works. That was all my analogy was meant to show.

These are entirely accurate

So, you agree with these quotes as being accurate?

It is better to sin than do good?

“It does not matter what people do; it only matters what they believe."

“Good works are bad and are sin like the rest.”

How do you reconcile these words with Matthew 25, particulary these:

40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.

45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

and

1 Corinthians 3:
He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

and

Revelations 14: 13

And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

1 Peter 1:17
17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.

 

[Wannano]

It is not flippant, nor was it meant to be flippant at all. I’m sorry that you took it that way. It was just meant to show the difference between two different theologies.

As far as the denominations I followed or I should say searched through, well, it was quite a few over many years. I realize there are many different thoughts and ideas of theology in protestantism. I worked in a protestant multi-denominational setting and attended many different types of services and yes it is true the differences are many but none of the protestant denominations believe the same as the Catholic church in how we are saved or what the Catholic church teaches regarding works and one of the biggest words that causes the differences is the word “alone”. We are saved by both faith and works. That was all my analogy was meant to show.

JonNC:

These are entirely accurate

So, you agree with these quotes as being accurate?

It is better to sin than do good?

“It does not matter what people do; it only matters what they believe."

“Good works are bad and are sin like the rest.”

How do you reconcile these words with Matthew 25, particulary these:

40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.

45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

and

1 Corinthians 3:
He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

and

Revelations 14: 13

And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

1 Peter 1:17
17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.

Actually MagdalenaRita, it was a very unacceptable analogy. Maybe being an ex-Protestant explains why for he may of had limited education!

 

[Bombardmentpro1955]

when I decided to get away from the Evangalistical and Charismatic and Baptist side of things I lost a lot of those friends but I am better for it. I recently had a Southern Baptist friend I was one of the last friends he had from the old gym. He called me tonight and said I called and you were not home I did not know if you were mad at me or not. You did not put your foot forward to do anything about Christmas or my birthday. You see one thing he did not understand yet the whole time he was judging me the protester in him set in. His daughter asked about me when they went to lunch on Wednesday and his attitude of judgement escalated from there. Then tonight I did not argue with him when he said I AM not going to call you two times everyday it will be once every three days. I just kept saying okay and then his friend that works all over the place for the hospitals setting up computer programs said he would spend some time with him in Jan and he told me that what he was going to do. But I feel fed up with the judgement and the next time he calls I am just going to say I am done and hang up

 

[JonNC]

As far as the denominations I followed or I should say searched through, well, it was quite a few over many years. I realize there are many different thoughts and ideas of theology in protestantism. I worked in a protestant multi-denominational setting and attended many different types of services

But you seem unwilling to name them specifically. Knowing which ones would help readers understand the background of the teachings you received.

So, you agree with these quotes as being accurate?

It is better to sin than do good?

“It does not matter what people do; it only matters what they believe."

“Good works are bad and are sin like the rest.”

How do you reconcile these words with Matthew 25, particulary these:

40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.

45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

One has to have an understanding of Luther’s presentation, hs use of hyperbole. At a time when works righteousness was a real think in the Catholic Church, Luther was responding to that. His point was not to rely on your own works. This is a good warning.
Luther was not opposed to works. Quite the opposite. One need only to read his commentary on Galatians and other writings to know that. But Luther is but one man, no more no less. The principle of sola scriptura applies to him, as well.
What one really needs to read to understand what Lutherans believe is the Bookof Concord. There one finds an intense call to love God with one’s whole heart and one’s neighbor as oneself.

one of the biggest words that causes the differences is the word “alone”. We are saved by both faith and works. That was all my analogy was meant to show.

Please go back and read James Akin’s column on this topic. Justification by Faith Alone – Jimmy Akin
I think far too often Catholics misunderstand the phrase sola fide just as must as non-Catholics misunderstand the phrase you used, faith and works. In both cases, I almost wish both sides would give up those phrases because, on their on, they are misleading. I think both sides agree that a saving faith is a faith that works through love.

 

[JonNC]

Actually MagdalenaRita, it was a very unacceptable analogy. Maybe being an ex-Protestant explains why for he may of had limited education!

It was certainly lacking in charity.
As for his education, we don’t know because for some reason @MagdalenaRita won’t reveal the tradition of the former pastor. That would help us understand more clearly the context of the analogy.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

Actually MagdalenaRita, it was a very unacceptable analogy. Maybe being an ex-Protestant explains why for he may of had limited education!

It was certainly lacking in charity.
As for his education, we don’t know because for some reason @MagdalenaRita won’t reveal the tradition of the former pastor. That would help us understand more clearly the context of the analogy.

I will admit I was being a bit facetious because of the numerous posts pointing out how so many Protestant pastors have so little education. An uneducated ex-Protestant who becomes a Catholic Theologian is an uneducated theologian.

Knowing the denomination of the pastor may give a clue but by the same token I have worked with clergy of all types in my career and I have met some very ignorant highly educated types and some very profound and well balanced not so highly educated types. But I agree, the context of the analogy is coming from some interesting perspective if it was actually presented here in a factual outline.