Definition of faith: Catholic and Protestant

[JonNC]

JonNC:

You’ve been told by posters that it comes across that way. That might not have been the intent.
To say they all believe in faith alone is simplistic.

Again, and with all charity, I am sorry if it came out that way for the couple of posters but I truly think that there is so much more being read into my post than what is there.

Plus, I was asked by one of the posters to explain, tell the denomination of the pastor and describe my own protestant history, which is why I responded again. I was asked to, otherwise I would not have.

To be honest with you, I am finding some of the responses uncharitable. I never said tarp in my post as one person said I did and I never said faith alone is simplistic, but that my analogy was just a simple analogy.

I was asked to respond again and explain and that is what I did.

God bless.

I actually appreciate your response, revealing the various traditions you were part of. And I’m truly disappointed in the poor catechesis you received.
I didn’t say you said tarp. I was speaking of the comment made by the priest you referenced, and his comment about sola fide. That is the most uncharitable comment made here, not any of yours.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Christ is much more than an institution, or a ritual or sacrament…i believe the CC agrees with this.

To a degree but according to CCC763 The Church, meaning the Catholic church “is the Reign of Christ already present in mystery.”

The Catholic church and her sacraments are the means of salvation given to us by Christ.

 

[JonNC]

MagdalenaRita:

In all charity, being without any of those things is not biblical, as we already saw in James 2 and then also in 1 Timothy 3:15:

of course, he was a reverend, saved by the Word, as delivered by the church. He knew His anchor, beyond initial “contact”/salvation, and knew where his hope lied in, and that Christ is much more than an institution, or a ritual or sacrament…i believe the CC agrees with this.

I have to ask you the same thing: can you please state the communion/ tradition/ denomination you are a member of?
Your comment about the sacraments is interesting, as they were instituted by Christ Himself.

 

[ltwin]

To be honest with you, I am finding some of the responses uncharitable. I never said tarp in my post as one person said I did and I never said faith alone is simplistic, but that my analogy was just a simple analogy.

I’m not here to beat you up. However, the reaction your original and subsequent “covered over” analogy has receives will show you how simplistic and offensive it is to the Protestants who frequent this forum. I struggle to reconcile your view of faith alone with John Wesley’s–who founded the Methodist Church. He wrote a sermon called “On Working out Your Own Salvation”, I have selected excerpts:

1. Proceed we now to the Second point: If God worketh in you, then work out your own salvation. The original word rendered, work out , implies the doing a thing thoroughly. Your own ; for you yourselves must do this, or it will be left undone forever. Your own salvation: Salvation begins with what is usually termed (and very properly) preventing grace ; including the first wish to please God, the first dawn of light concerning his will, and the first slight transient conviction of having sinned against him. All these imply some tendency toward life; some degree of salvation; the beginning of a deliverance from a blind, unfeeling heart, quite insensible of God and the things of God. Salvation is carried on by convincing grace , usually in Scripture termed repentance; which brings a larger measure of self-knowledge, and a farther deliverance from the heart of stone. Afterwards we experience the proper Christian salvation; whereby, “through grace,” we “are saved by faith;” consisting of those two grand branches, justification and sanctification. By justification we are saved from the guilt of sin, and restored to the favour of God; by sanctification we are saved from the power and root of sin, and restored to the image of God. All experience, as well as Scripture, shows this salvation to be both instantaneous and gradual. It begins the moment we are justified, in the holy, humble, gentle, patient love of God and man. It gradually increases from that moment, as “a grain of mustard-seed, which, at first, is the least of all seeds,” but afterwards puts forth large branches, and becomes a great tree; till, in another instant, the heart is cleansed, from all sin, and filled with pure love to God and man. But even that love increases more and more, till we “grow up in all things into him that is our Head;” till we attain “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.”

Continued in next post

 

[ltwin]

Wesley’s sermon continued

4. But what are the steps which the Scripture directs us to take, in the working out of our own salvation? The Prophet Isaiah gives us a general answer, touching the first steps which we are to take: “Cease to do evil; learn to do well.” If ever you desire that God should work in you that faith whereof cometh both present and eternal salvation, by the grace already given, fly from all sin as from the face of a serpent; carefully avoid every evil word and work; yea, abstain from all appearance of evil. And “learn to do well:” Be zealous of good works, of works of piety, as well as works of mercy; family prayer, and crying to God in secret. Fast in secret, and “your Father which seeth in secret, he will reward you openly.” “Search the Scriptures:” Hear them in public, read them in private, and meditate therein. At every opportunity, be a partaker of the Lord’s Supper. “Do this in remembrance of him: and he will meet you at his own table. Let your conversation be with the children of God; and see that it “be in grace, seasoned with salt.” As ye have time, do good unto all men; to their souls and to their bodies. And herein “be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.” It then only remains that ye deny yourselves and take up your cross daily. Deny yourselves every pleasure which does not prepare you for taking pleasure in God, and willingly embrace every means of drawing near to God, though it be a cross, though it be grievous to flesh and blood. Thus when you have redemption in the blood of Christ, you will “go on to perfection;” till “walking in the light as he is in the light,” you are enabled to testify, that “he is faithful and just,” not only to “forgive” your “sins,” but to “cleanse” you from all unrighteousness.” [1 John 1:9]

7. Secondly, God worketh in you; therefore you must work: You must be “workers together with him,” (they are the very words of the Apostle) otherwise he will cease working. . . .

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I actually appreciate your response, revealing the various traduyou were part of. And I’m truly disappointed in the poor catechesis you received.
I didn’t say you said tarp. I was speaking of the comment made by the priest you referenced, and his comment about sola fide. That is the most uncharitable comment made here, not any of yours.

I didn’t say I had poor catechesis. I was protestant for 20 years, did Bible studies in all those different denominations, worked in a multi-denominational Christian setting, meeting and learning from many people from different protestant only denominations, all my friends were protestant and I homeschooled my family through 8th grade from protestant text-books.

I believe God gave me an excellent view of protestantism over those years, which is what led me home to the Catholic church.

The pastor didn’t say tarp either and I feel some of the responses were rather uncharitable and hurtful.

Isiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,

God bless

 

[MagdalenaRita]

your original and subsequent “covered over” analogy

As I said before I think more was read into the “cover” than what was there. I didn’t say “covered over” but God covers the car with a huge cover.

Isiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,

Works mean something different to protestants than they do to Catholics. It does not mean that protestants do not work to grow in holiness.

I read a lot about John Wesley, also his brother Charles, while in the Methodist church. Two very interesting men. They did not always agree with each other as far as theology went. When they first started their Methodist movement, they were very strict. Would put a lot of people to shame, with how hard they worked. As time went on Methodism changed somewhat though still believed in growth in holiness.

Their mother Suzanna was great influence on me. In protestantism she is considered the mother of homeschooling. She worked very hard raising her family and teaching bible studies in her home.

God bless.

 

[ltwin]

I studied a lot of John Wesley, also his brother Charles, while in the Methodist church

I’m sorry you were taught so poorly because you certainly haven’t represented Methodism well when discussing what Protestants believe.

 

[MichaelP3]

The Catholic church and her sacraments are the means of salvation given to us by Christ.

To take this back to the question in the thread.

Do you believe this (faith) or is this what you have been told?

The Catholic Church claim to be many things. But the question of faith still remains important!

 

[MichaelP3]

I think part of the reason for the responses is because it is a Catholic forum and it is called Catholic Answers, and these are Catholic answers. The answers received are what the Catholic church teaches.

Oh NO

I as a non-Catholic can educate various Catholics on here on CATHOLICISM! Yes that is right!

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I certainly believe that. One should be able to come here though and answer in a Catholic way as best they can.

 

[JonNC]

Thank you.

I didn’t say I had poor catechesis.

Your welcome.
No, I said you were apparently poorly catechized if a Lutheran setting didn’t teach you the necessity of good works.

I believe God gave me an excellent view of protestantism over those years, which is what led me home to the Catholic church.

One cannot have a singular view of “Protestantism” since it doesn’t exist beyond a loose categorization. One can have a view of each of the communions.
That you are where you were led is a wonderful thing. I pray you are blessed there in word and sacrament.

 

[MichaelP3]

Maybe!

But Catholics do not even get the Protestants right when they post something. And many many times they do not even get Catholicism right. Just my observation.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

One cannot have a singular view of “Protestantism” since it doesn’t exist beyond a loose categorization.

Yes I agree.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I suspect that is true at times but I am sure also that there are those that do get it right. Its just hard to hear.

Perhaps since you understand and know Catholicism, someday you will come in.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I’m sorry you were taught so poorly…

Sometimes when making comments on the internet things do not always come out the way we intend. Comments can be made that make sense while typing them but then get taken wrong by those who read them. I would hope at best we don’t assume someone’s knowledge or lack thereof by just a few comments.

This is more or less what I learned as a Methodist: http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/we-are-saved

_This is the great theme of the Protestant Reformers, as well as John Wesley and the Methodists who followed: We’re saved by grace alone through faith alone. We’re made whole and reconciled by the love of God as we receive it and trust in it.

God’s love, or grace, is given without any regard for our goodness. It’s unmerited, unconditional, and unending love.

In Wesley tradition, our sanctification is pressing on toward perfection.
by God’s grace, as we United Methodists say, “we’re going on to perfection!”

From what I was taught, Methodists believe in doing good, and growing in holiness but not doing works for salvation as Catholics are instructed, as this article describes penance and making reparation for sin:
http://www.therealpresence.org/chapel/pen_rep.htm

I’ve noticed that when Protestants talk about faith or “faith alone”, Catholics seem to be interpreting that to mean “belief” or “belief alone”

Getting back to the original question, yes, I would agree with this. I would maybe also say, perhaps using the word protestant isn’t the best, since it is a word that overlaps many denominations and there are those that believe in doing good works, not for salvation, but for sanctification and others that do not.

For me, I’d define faith as “belief that God was in Christ seeking to save; trust that God will keep his promises; and commitment to his will and way.”

I would also say, I see similarities in your definition and this:

CCC 1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, …because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God. For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will.

 

[ltwin]

Sometimes when making comments on the internet things do not always come out the way we intend. Comments can be made that make sense while typing them but then get taken wrong by those who read them. I would hope at best we don’t assume someone’s knowledge or lack thereof by just a few comments.

I hope you don’t see my comments as an attack on you.

From what I was taught, Methodists believe in doing good, and growing in holiness but not doing works for salvation as Catholics are instructed, as this article describes penance and making reparation for sin:
Conversations With God: Penance and Reparation

What you seem to be missing though is that for Methodists doing good works and growing in holiness is part of salvation. It is not the cause of salvation, but it is nonetheless part of salvation. Part of “going on to perfection” is becoming more perfect.

You keep wanting to limit Protestant soteriology to justification, and I’m not sure why because Protestants don’t. The link the the UMC dedicates an entire paragraph to sanctification:

Conversion is but the beginning of the new life of wholeness. Through what Wesley called God’s “sanctifying grace,” we can continue to grow. In fact, Wesley affirmed, we’re to press on, with God’s help, in the path of sanctification , the gift of Christian perfection. The goal of the sanctified life is to be perfected in love, to experience the pure love of God and others, a holiness of heart and life, a total death to sin. We’re not there yet; but by God’s grace, as we United Methodists say, “we’re going on to perfection!”

Notice that this is not God “covering over” our sins and simply declaring us righteous while we in fact remain sinful. This is us dying to sin and growing in actual love and holiness until we are perfected in love or “entirely sanctified.”

Getting back to the original question, yes, I would agree with this. I would maybe also say, perhaps using the word protestant isn’t the best, since it is a word that overlaps many denominations

I’m fine using the term Protestant as a general term as long as we are careful to specify what Protestants we are talking about when getting into the weeds.

and there are those that believe in doing good works, not for salvation, but for sanctification and others that do not.

Can you name a Protestant denomination that denies good works are part of sanctification?

I would also say, I see similarities in your definition and this:

CCC 1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, …because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God. For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will.

Yes, I do too.

 

[mcq72]

The Catholic church and her sacraments are the means of salvation given to us by Christ.

Understand thank you. But what I was trying to say, what other Catholics have posted elsewhere, is that Christ and His effectual power is not limited to the confines of sacraments, nor even the Catholic Church, even all churches. Of course His effectual salvation is another matter, but even there the CC says other churches offer and have salvation, with the caveat that it is due to and showing unity to CC.

 

[mcq72]

have to ask you the same thing: can you please state the communion/ tradition/ denomination you are a member of?
Your comment about the sacraments is interesting, as they were instituted by Christ Himself.

I would say non denominational, with roots in Assembly of God (pentescostal) , Calvary Chapels, and a bit baptist, with family roots in Catholicism. Believe Christ instituted baptism and communion remembrance. Believe Christ and His apostles also instituted a blessing/anointing of those called to ministering the flock.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

have to ask you the same thing: can you please state the communion/ tradition/ denomination you are a member of?
Your comment about the sacraments is interesting, as they were instituted by Christ Himself.

I would say non denominational, with roots in Assembly of God (pentescostal) , Calvary Chapels, and a bit baptist, with family roots in Catholicism. Believe Christ instituted baptism and communion remembrance. Believe Christ and His apostles also instituted a blessing/anointing of those called to ministering the flock.

Thank you.
Would it be safe, then, to assume you do not believe that Christ, in His Supper, was literal when He said, “this is my body”?