Definition of faith: Catholic and Protestant

[MagdalenaRita]

Sounds like a nice community. I attended several evangelical churches and none of them had anything like that but I should be a little more specific. My comment was meant that works are not important to evangelicals for salvation due to believing in faith alone.

 

[lanman87]

My comment was meant that works are not important to evangelicals for salvation due to believing in faith alone.

Yes, that is because we don’t believe you can earn salvation by works. If our works contribute to our salvation then salvation is earned and no longer a free gift. Instead we believe works are a result of and give evidence of a “living faith”. We are saved by this “living faith” with the purpose of works is to give Glory to God and expand His Kingdom. They also help us grow closer to Christ and strengthen our “living faith”. As our faith gets stronger we do more works and as we do more works our faith gets stronger.

 

[HopkinsReb]

MagdalenaRita:

My comment was meant that works are not important to evangelicals for salvation due to believing in faith alone.

Yes, that is because we don’t believe you can earn salvation by works. If our works contribute to our salvation then salvation is earned and no longer a free gift.

Huh. Attn:Catholics on the board: how many of you believe that you can earn salvation by works?

 

[lanman87]

Huh. Attn:Catholics on the board: how many of you believe that you can earn salvation by works?

This is something I’ve been trying to get a straight answer to ever since I’ve been on this board.

On the one hand Catholics claim we don’t earn salvation by works. On the other hand that say that you must not only participate in the sacraments but also need to do works of Charity or else you may not make it into heaven. If I believe giving $20 to my local soup kitchen helps me to make it to heaven then I do, in fact, believe I’m saved by works.

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

Huh. Attn:Catholics on the board: how many of you believe that you can earn salvation by works?

This is something I’ve been trying to get a straight answer to ever since I’ve been on this board.

On the one hand Catholics claim we don’t earn salvation by works. On the other hand that say that you must not only participate in the sacraments but also need to do works of Charity or else you may not make it into heaven. If I believe giving $20 to my local soup kitchen helps me to make it to heaven then I do, in fact, believe I’m saved by works.

I think you’re misinterpreting them. As I understand it, the Catholic claim is not that our works earn salvation. It’s that our works are part of the process of justification. See 1 Corinthians 3:10-15: one who has built on his salvation well will have reward, while one who has built on his salvation poorly will still be saved but will suffer loss (paraphrased). Salvation and justification are different but related things.

 

[TheLittleLady]

For me, I’d define faith as “belief that God was in Christ seeking to save; trust that God will keep his promises; and commitment to his will and way.”

Faith is not belief. They are different.

Faith is a gift of God given to every man, increased through the Sacraments and a life of virtue.

From the Catechism:

166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

 

[lanman87]

Salvation and justification are different but related things.

I’ve seen Catholics say that initial justification (when we come to faith) is completely free. But that final justification (getting to heaven) depends our cooperation with grace. The bottom line is that if someone thinks that volunteering a disaster relief center or giving money to help the poor helps them get to heaven then it is an earned salvation.

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

Salvation and justification are different but related things.

I’ve seen Catholics say that initial justification (when we come to faith) is completely free. But that final justification (getting to heaven) depends our cooperation with grace. The bottom line is that if someone thinks that volunteering a disaster relief center or giving money to help the poor helps them get to heaven then it is an earned salvation.

It’s very easy to argue against Catholicism on the basis of “I’ve seen Catholics say.” Perhaps you should argue against the position of the Catholic church instead of a straw man built on the words of individual Catholics who may have varying qualities of catechesis? Do you think it would be fair for me to determine that Lutheranism writ large is wrong because some Lutherans say that sexual morality is irrelevant?

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Somewhere upthread someone posted the universal declaration on justification by Catholics and Lutherans. That should help you.

The Catholic Church does not teach that works in anyway purchase salvation for you. This is a misunderstanding. The church teaches that our desire to do good works arises out of faith. It is an act of love and evidence of true faith.

To put it succinctly, Catholics believe in faith that works.

 

[HopkinsReb]

Somewhere upthread someone posted the universal declaration on justification by Catholics and Lutherans. That should help you.

The Catholic Church does not teach that works in anyway purchase salvation for you. This is a misunderstanding. The church teaches that our desire to do good works arises out of faith. It is an act of love and evidence of true faith.

To put it succinctly, Catholics believe in faith that works.

I find the Jimmy Akin piece someone posted earlier to be really helpful and compelling.

 

[neophyte]

So, does faith = belief for Catholics?

The Hebrew word aman is translated as “believe”, “trust”, “have faith”, and also “support”, “nourish”, and “make lasting”. A derivative word is omenat , meaning “pillars” or “supports of the door” as in 2 Kings 18:16. Another cognate is emunah , which is “faithfulness” or “trust”, as in Exodus 17:12 where God brought victory to Israel as long as Moses would hold his hands up. Aaron and Hur held up his hands so that they “remained emunah until sundown”. All of these illustrate that faith is an action that we take, which is exactly what the Catholic church teaches. Faith is a work, it’s about what you DO and not merely about what you believe.

We are not able to do this work by our own effort because of the effects of original sin. Each and every time we turn toward God and away from sin it is because God gave us at that moment the grace to be able to do it. It is completely and totally due to the grace of God, who enables all of us at some point in our lives to perform the work of freely responding to Him by performing the “obedience of faith”. At that moment we truly have the choice that Adam had, to submit to God or submit to ourselves, and we only have that choice because of God’s grace.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church expresses this by saying that faith is an act of the will in which one turns toward God and away from sin; in which we decide that we will cooperate, with our intellect and will, with the divine grace that God gives us to enable us to comply with the moral law; it is a free response of the human person to the initiative of God; it is a personal adherence of the whole man to the God who reveals himself. It is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that HolyChurch proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.” For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work through charity.”

These are all actions , things we do in obedience to God. Thus the Apostle Paul says in Romans 1:5 "Through Him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith…” This obedience is the essence of Christianity: submission to the Eternal One who was enfleshed, and through that submission being brought into union with Him so that we may participate in His divine life.

 

[lanman87]

The church teaches that our desire to do good works arises out of faith. It is an act of love and evidence of true faith.

To put it succinctly, Catholics believe in faith that works.

So giving and volunteering at the local Catholic homeless shelter doesn’t help you get to heaven?

 

[mrsdizzyd]

mrsdizzyd:

The church teaches that our desire to do good works arises out of faith. It is an act of love and evidence of true faith.

To put it succinctly, Catholics believe in faith that works.

So giving and volunteering at the local Catholic homeless shelter doesn’t help you get to heaven?

My desire to give and volunteer arises about of faith and love for God. They are evidence of the thing required for my salvation: faith. As scripture says, we should think of faith, hope, and love together.

 

[HopkinsReb]

lanman87:

mrsdizzyd:

The church teaches that our desire to do good works arises out of faith. It is an act of love and evidence of true faith.

To put it succinctly, Catholics believe in faith that works.

So giving and volunteering at the local Catholic homeless shelter doesn’t help you get to heaven?

My desire to give and volunteer arises about of faith and love for God. They are evidence of the thing required for my salvation: faith.

in before you get accused of avoiding the question

 

[mrsdizzyd]

mrsdizzyd:

lanman87:

mrsdizzyd:

The church teaches that our desire to do good works arises out of faith. It is an act of love and evidence of true faith.

To put it succinctly, Catholics believe in faith that works.

So giving and volunteering at the local Catholic homeless shelter doesn’t help you get to heaven?

My desire to give and volunteer arises about of faith and love for God. They are evidence of the thing required for my salvation: faith.

in before you get accused of avoiding the question

If someone thinks I have avoided the question, I suggest that he or she doesn’t have a clear understanding of what exactly make up faith let alone justification and sanctification. I would refer him or her back to the universal statement on justification and Jimmy Akin’s article.

Having recently gone through this process of coming to terms with “what is faith” and “how are we justified” I would also tell them that I understand why they struggle with the Catholic position.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Or as I say “You show me your faith without works, I will show you my faith by my works”

 

[lagerald24]

However, we do not forfeit our salvation every time we sin. Rather, we forfeit our salvation through sustained unbelief and deliberate sin.

Yes, that’s true. We can forfeit our salvation through mortal sin or sin that leads ‘unto death’ like we read in 1st John 5:16-17. Venial sins or sins that are not ‘unto death’ weaken our relationship with God but do not utterly destroy it.

 

[lanman87]

My desire to give and volunteer arises about of faith and love for God. They are evidence of the thing required for my salvation: faith. As scripture says, we should think of faith, hope, and love together.

Well, now I’m confused as that is the Protestant belief about faith and works. Faith (a living faith) is what saves us and works (acts of love and kindness to others) are evidence of faith.

 

[TheLittleLady]

One more thing to remember, not all Protestants hold to Sola Fide.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

mrsdizzyd:

My desire to give and volunteer arises about of faith and love for God. They are evidence of the thing required for my salvation: faith. As scripture says, we should think of faith, hope, and love together.

Well, now I’m confused as that is the Protestant belief about faith and works. Faith (a living faith) is what saves us and works (acts of love and kindness to others) are evidence of faith.

Well, yes! Some Protestants do hold nearly the same view of faith as Catholics do.

Only some. I came from a Protestant tradition that did not.