Definition of faith: Catholic and Protestant

[HopkinsReb]

guanophore:

I agree, my hangup is when the words are added “before men”.

Just curious. Does God need/desire us to do works before Him so He will know we are just?

No, and that’s not the Catholic position on works.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I agree that there is a wide range of belief in protestantism in regards to whether or not you can lose your salvation and how it is possible.

we are to live a life of holiness and repentance in relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

This to me sounds like faith and works or faith and action, which is what the Church teaches.

As I and others have said the Church does not teach that we earn our salvation but by the grace of God, faith and works cooperate with each other for our salvation. God reaches down to us with His grace and we accept and cooperate with that grace.

Jesus says not all who say “Lord, Lord” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but those who do the will of God.

 

[ltwin]

In Aninomianism the belief is that there is no moral law that Christians are to obey. Yes most protestants accept that there is a moral law to obey but do not fear disobeying that law because they are “saved” and falsely believe that their salvation can not be lost.

That is still Antinomianism. Even Calvinists preach against Antinomianism. Look up the Antinomian Crisis in American history. Guess what–it was the Puritans (who were Calvinist) who were preaching against the Antinomians.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Yes as I said earlier there are different ways protestants view eternal security.

 

[ltwin]

Yes, and most Protestants are not crypto-Antinomians either.

 

[guanophore]

salvation will be lost.

I think Catholics shoot themselves in the foot using this phrase. There are too many scripturally supported events that surround Baptism that are permanent. Catholics do not believe we are “saved” in this life anyway. It is more accurate to say that we will fail to attain salvation, or fail to be united with our heavenly inheritance. Catholics believe that we work out our salvation throughout this life, so one cannot “lose” that which one has never attained!

“But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” Matthew 24:13

“…and you will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” Mark 13:13

“…But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive commendation from God.” I Cor. 4:3-5

I think the bigger issue is that protesants think that Catholics think they are working to earn their salvation.

I believe it is a problem, but I think the bigger problems is that so many CATHOLICS think they are working to earn their salvation. If this misunderstanding is corrected, then the dialogue with our separated brethren will be much more productive.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

There are too many scripturally supported events that surround Baptism that are permanent. Catholics do not believe we are “saved” in this life anyway. It is more accurate to say that we will fail to attain salvation, or fail to be united with our heavenly inheritance. Catholics believe that we work out our salvation throughout this life, so one cannot “lose” that which one has never attained!

I agree with this. I thought about it later that I should not have used that wording because it is true, we are not saved until we are home with the Lord, whether in purgatory or heaven. Not attaining salvation would be a better phrase.

bigger problems is that so many CATHOLICS think they are working to earn their salvation.

I just haven’t seen this in my experience. I see that more and more Catholics are not following Church teaching on faith and works. Many Catholics no longer know what indulgences, reparations or penances are. They do not understand even what the Mass is. Few understand it is a sacrifice for their salvation. Sanctuaries and tabernacles are disrepected. Even genuflecting when entering the pews is fading away and being replace with head bows. The confessionals are empty. At funeral Masses people are told their loved ones are in heaven, which then in turn impresses on them that when they die they too will go straight to heaven.

Sorry, I just think the opposite. Catholics need to be reminded that we are saved by faith and works. Faith and works is what built Christendom in the past and now are parishes are being emptied out.

God bless.

 

[guanophore]

Does God need/desire us to do works before Him so He will know we are just?

It is an interesting theological investigation.

"He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” Genesis 22:12

But I think we will all agree that God does not “need” anything from us, His creatures. He chooses to work through us to accomplish His will, and allows us to participate in bringing the world to Himself.

He is most concerned about our sanctification, so I think it relates to Abraham’s self perception before God.

The reason I reject the “before men” addition is because they were alone on the mountain. There were no others before whom they needed to demonstrate what was just.

 

[guanophore]

Catholics need to be reminded that we are saved by faith and works. Faith and works is what built Christendom in the past and now are parishes are being emptied out.

Although I prefer the expression “faith, working through love”, we are in agreement about the backsliding and poor catechesis that results in irreverent practices.

 

[Lwamsfarr51]

Personally I rather follow the word of God than the Catschism which says, For it is by grace you are saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, but it is a gift of God; not because of works least any man should boast. Ephesians 2 : 8,9.

 

[Thom18]

“Personally”, a Catholic would rather follow the Church which Jesus founded 2,000 years ago than one made by men from the 1500s onward.

 

[lagerald24]

Personally I rather follow the word of God than the Catschism which says, For it is by grace you are saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, but it is a gift of God; not because of works least any man should boast. Ephesians 2 : 8,9.

Actually @Lwamsfarr51, the Catechism and the Bible are totally in agreement on this point. Ephesians 2:8-9 are talking about how we cannot do anything to earn that initial justification when we first come to God and are made right with Him. Catholics totally agree with this. We must also go on to the verse 10 which says that we were created for good works. The works Paul had been talking about earlier are most likely the works of the Old Testament Mosaic Law, fulfilled in the Law of Christ, the good works we must live in. So, I don’t see how these verses disprove the Catholic teaching on Justification. They’re actually in big support of our position. Anyway, hope this is helpful.

 

[lagerald24]

We as Catholics believe that in that initial stage of our Justification, neither faith nor works justify us but rather the grace of God which moves us. Having been justified, we now work out our salvation as Philippians 2:12 commands us. We fulfill the ‘Law of Christ’ which has fulfilled the Mosaic Law. We DO NOT earn our salvation merely by ourselves but we cooperate with the grace God freely gives us.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Just curious. Does God need/desire us to do works before Him so He will know we are just?

This is a point you keep returning to. It makes we wonder how it is that you could continue to hold this view of Catholics when we have repeatedly told you that we believe no such thing?

 

[HopkinsReb]

lanman87:

Just curious. Does God need/desire us to do works before Him so He will know we are just?

This is a point you keep returning to. It makes we wonder how it is that you could continue to hold this view of Catholics when we have repeatedly told you that we believe no such thing?

I can’t wrap my head around the reverse: if our works are literally nothing more than the manifestation of our faith and are entirely and utterly meaningless and worthless to our justification, why is so much ink spilled in the New Testament about how to behave as Christians? If it’s the natural result of true faith, shouldn’t it just appear on its own? Why do we need to be told?

 

[mrsdizzyd]

are entirely and utterly meaningless and worthless to our justification

Well, they are not entirely and utterly meaningless as scripture tells us…

If it’s the natural result of true faith, shouldn’t it just appear on its own? Why do we need to be told?

Because human beings are fallen, fickle, and willful and need to be exhorted to respond to grace.

ETA: missed a very important “not” there.

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

are entirely and utterly meaningless and worthless to our justification

Well, they are not entirely and utterly meaningless as scripture tells us…

If it’s the natural result of true faith, shouldn’t it just appear on its own? Why do we need to be told?

Because human beings are fallen, fickle, and willful and need to be exhorted to respond to grace.

ETA: missed a very important “not” there.

This is exactly my point. I can’t find a compelling argument from a sola fide advocate for why the way we behave matters. The only answer I can find that makes sense is that it proves our justification to ourselves, but I find that to be entirely uncompelling.

That “not” was definitely important! I was very confused by your response for a sec there.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I can’t find a compelling argument from a sola fide advocate for why the way we behave matters. The only answer I can find that makes sense is that it proves our justification to ourselves, but I find that to be entirely uncompelling.

That’s exactly where I was when I started to swim the Tiber.

 

[lanman87]

This is exactly my point. I can’t find a compelling argument from a sola fide advocate for why the way we behave matters. The only answer I can find that makes sense is that it proves our justification to ourselves, but I find that to be entirely uncompelling.

Your missing the last Sola. Soli Deo Gloria

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

This is exactly my point. I can’t find a compelling argument from a sola fide advocate for why the way we behave matters. The only answer I can find that makes sense is that it proves our justification to ourselves, but I find that to be entirely uncompelling.

Your missing the last Sola. Soli Deo Gloria

If we’re justified by faith alone, why bother praising God? Seems like a waste of effort.