Definition of faith: Catholic and Protestant

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HopkinsReb said:
If we’re justified by faith alone, why bother praising God? Seems like a waste of effort.
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How about because you love God and want everyone to know it. How about wanting to share and tell of His goodness and grace because it has had such an impact on your life. How about being so grateful to God for what He has done for you that you can’t help but praise His name. Any faith that doesn’t result in giving God Glory and Praise by our words and deeds is probably a dead faith and not a living faith.

We aren’t saved by a dead faith, which is an intellectual understanding or emotional reaction to the grace of God. We are saved by a living faith which is a life changing and heart changing result of the grace of God.
 
Ah, so once again, we’re back to the point that the saving kind of faith naturally causes works and praise. So, again, why do we need to be told to do either of them? After all, they’ll just happen with a living faith. No need to spill so much ink in the Bible on instructions for how to live.
 
HopkinsReb said:
Ah, so once again, we’re back to the point that the saving kind of faith naturally causes works and praise. So, again, why do we need to be told to do either of them? After all, they’ll just happen with a living faith. No need to spill so much ink in the Bible on instructions for how to live.
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I do believe that those who hear the Gospel and come to faith in Christ have a God given desire to praise God in both word and deed. There is an underground church in many countries (China comes to mind) who have a very limited access to the scriptures. Yet they do a great job of praising and “working”. Following the Bible helps them hear the word of God and understand more fully how to work and praise but the desire to work and praise comes from the heart. The Bible gives instruction but the heart (a heart changed by the Holy Spirit) gives desire.
 
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From someone outside of the religion, this is how I see the distinction between Belief, Hope, Trust, and Faith being actually used by the religious.

To “believe” something is to assert a knowledge of a result is possible for the action take. To be possible, means that the result has been demonstrated.
IE: On a 1d6 dice roll, I believe that a number from 1-6 will be the result.

To trust, means to hold that the consistency of a process will not deviate from previous historical times this process was run.
IE: I trust that reality will not change when I role a 1d6 dice roll and the dice will give the same possible results that it always has; a number value from 1-6. The dice will not spontaneously stop rolling and hover above the ground, for example. I trust that the laws of reality will not change based on all the historical evidence presenting this.

“Hope” - to desire a specific possible result from all the known demonstrated possible results.
IE: I placed a bet that a 5 will result from a 1d6 dice roll. It’s not as likely as betting an even number will result, but the 5 is still documented as a possible result. So I hope that the 5 will be the result of the 1d6 dice roll.

“Faith” - The excuse people use to believe or hope a result will be the case when reality has not demonstrated that result is even possible.
IE: I have faith that a 7 will result from a 1d6 dice roll; even though reality does not demonstrate that option is even valid to consider.

Based on this observed use of the word “faith” that the religious use, you can literally hold any conclusion you want about reality on the excuse of “faith”. Any claim, literally any claim, can be held based on faith; even if the claim is in direct contradiction with other claims. Name me one claim that could not be held on the idea of “faith” and it will break this conclusion.
How is using the label of “faith” for holding a position at all a valid way to understanding the truth about any claim about reality?
 
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But if we are justified by faith alone, why does it even matter how well we understand how to work and praise?
 
The Christian Life isn’t just about “Being Justified”.

I don’t see how anyone who has truly had a heart changed by God could do anything but praise Him and do the work He has prepared us to do.
 
JonNC said:
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HopkinsReb:
But if we are justified by faith alone, why does it even matter how well we understand how to work and praise?
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“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
-M. Luther
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Goes back to my question: if real faith automatically leads to works, why do we need exhortation to works? After all, that real faith will just make them suddenly start happening. No instructions needed!
 
HopkinsReb said:
I can’t wrap my head around the reverse: if our works are literally nothing more than the manifestation of our faith and are entirely and utterly meaningless and worthless to our justification, why is so much ink spilled in the New Testament about how to behave as Christians? If it’s the natural result of true faith, shouldn’t it just appear on its own? Why do we need to be told?
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Romans 10: 17, “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.” We receive faith through both Word and Spirit. We are built up and confirmed in our faith through the Word and the Spirit.

Faith “is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). How can we know what we have faith (assurance, conviction) in without first being taught or exposed to the message of Christ and the promises of God? How can we believe that we have been made holy, righteous and new creations if we never heard this preached in the power of the Spirit?

There is also a necessity to warn those who think they are justified when they are really not.
HopkinsReb said:
This is exactly my point. I can’t find a compelling argument from a sola fide advocate for why the way we behave matters. The only answer I can find that makes sense is that it proves our justification to ourselves, but I find that to be entirely uncompelling.
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Because salvation is not only being declared righteous. It is being made alive when before we were dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1-5). It is being made a new creation–the old man is gone and the new man is here (2 Corinthians 5:17). It is becoming sons and daughters of God (Ephesians 1:5).

It is about life in the Spirit–and since we live in the Spirit we must walk in step with the Spirit (Galatians 5:25). We have not only been justified, but we have also been sanctified through the work of the Spirit and the belief in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Because God is holy (and we are children of God), the Scriptures tell us to be holy in all we do (1 Peter 1:16). Because we were saved for the praise of his glory (Ephesians 1:12), and God will be glorified in us.

The different aspects/elements of salvation are typically expressed as the ordo salutis or order of salvation. Protestants generally recognize the order or way of salvation to include the following:
Calling
Justification & Regeneration & Adoption
Sanctification (progressive, ongoing)
Glorification (after death)
HopkinsReb said:
If we’re justified by faith alone, why bother praising God? Seems like a waste of effort.
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If we truly have faith, we will not only be justified but we will also be made new by our communion with Christ. Therefore, with a heart transformed by the love of Christ, we will give God glory because we love him, and we want other people to know him in the fullness of his truth and power.

In addition, God gets no glory out of his Son dying on a cross if all the people that are “saved” ultimately are unchanged in any meaningful way.
 
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HopkinsReb said:
Goes back to my question: if real faith automatically leads to works, why do we need exhortation to works? After all, that real faith will just make them suddenly start happening. No instructions needed!
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Who said “automatically”? I certainly didn’t.
We have free will to reject grace, to reject His call.
 
In English? I did not see any Luther’s Bible online in English. I was only looking at the online versions in German. And none of them have anything beyond the 66 books.
 
Sorry. I misunderstood your comment. You are correct.
I honestly do not know why it wouldn’t appear in its entirety
 
I don’t think I have a problem with that response; it seems to be in large part a linguistic dispute, as discussed in the Jimmy Akin article someone posted earlier.

It just seems to me that defending “faith alone” requires so much time spent adding qualifications to explain exactly what is and isn’t meant by the word “faith” that it’s more efficient to say “faith, hope, and charity,” “faith working through love,” or something along those lines.
 
HopkinsReb said:
It just seems to me that defending “faith alone” requires so much time spent adding qualifications to explain exactly what is and isn’t meant by the word “faith” that it’s more efficient to say “faith, hope, and charity,” “faith working through love,” or something along those lines.
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That is why I’ve started using the term “Living faith alone”. I’ve learned that if I say faith alone many people are conditioned to hear “Belief alone”. I think the main point is the classical protestant position is that works are a necessary part of faith. Whereas, Catholics tend to separate faith from works as if to say someone can have a “living faith” and not have works. I once heard it put this way, “Faith alone saves but not all Faith is a saving faith”.

I would agree that someone can have intellectual belief and not have works. I would also say that it is possible for someone to have an intellectual belief and do all kinds of works and still not have a “living faith”. Those are the people who try to earn their salvation by doing works. They believe Jesus is who He says He is but don’t really understand the grace of God. Their heart has not yet been changed.

I would also agree someone can have an emotional response to the Gospel and get all excited about Jesus but then when the excitement wears off they go back to being just like they were before. I wouldn’t call either of those a “living faith”.
 
Yeah, I agree with all that. That’s why I like the “faith, hope, and charity/works” formulation, because to so many people the word “faith” simply means "belief. So instead of saying “faith, which means…,” I think it’s more intuitive to say:
Faith, i.e. belief in God’s Word
Hope, i.e. trust in God
Works, i.e. living according to His Word
All three of these things are obviously tightly related to one another; you can’t omit one, because not only does it leave our obligation incomplete, but omitting one stunts the other two.
mrsdizzyd said:
What? Where did you get this?
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I have encountered Catholics who do this. It’s not the teaching of the Church, but there are definitely Catholics who fall into the trap of interpreting it this way, just as there are definitely Protestants who fall into the trap of interpreting “faith alone” as “belief alone.”
 
HopkinsReb said:
I have encountered Catholics who do this. It’s not the teaching of the Church, but there are definitely Catholics who fall into the trap of interpreting it this way, just as there are definitely Protestants who fall into the trap of interpreting “faith alone” as “belief alone.”
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I think we can both agree that setting up errors as straw men is not an honest debate strategy.
 
Sure. But I tend to read things pretty literally (occupational hazard of being an engineer), and he said “Catholics tend to,” not “the Catholic Church tends to.” I read it as an individual failing that often results from an easy misinterpretation of a particular formulation.
 
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Whooooah there big fella - this sounds way to reasonable to me. You better watch out HopkinsReb - if you’re not careful, you might end up with some Protestants like me thinking you’re an Ok guy 🙂

You a Blue Jay fan?
 
I hope some Protestants think I’m an Ok guy – I’m a Protestant!

I try to catch a Hopkins lax game now and again, but I just did my grad school there, so I’m not nearly as plugged in as I am with my undergrad alma mater, Ole Miss.
 
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