Democracy: the enemy of the faith

[elt1956]

The entire Jewish community of the Iberian penninsula whom had lived there for over a millenium were either expelled or killed or forced converted to Catholicism. Indeed quite mild.

Not doubting, but asking. Where did your info. come from? Are you Jewish? Peace

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I find it ironic that you say that, in view of the fact that “Catholic ultra conservatives” were virtually the entire population of Europe throughout the Medieval Ages.

The Church only accepted freedom of religion in the mid-20th century.

I was confining my remarks to movements of today. I referred people to historical times as a lesson for today. I’m not sure what you mean by ultra-conservatives of the medieval times? can you be more specific.

The Church only accepted democracy and representative govt aboutt he same time as well. It realized that the Church/state model had led to a great deal of unfortuate decisions, and had had a great deal to do with the reformation.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Actually, the only victims of the Inquisition were Catholics. It had no jurisdiction over Jews, Muslims or Protestants (or witches, for that matter – which is why the horror of the witch hunts was confined to Protestant countries.)

The Spanish Inquisition was concerned with finding potential enemy agents – Muslims who had falsely converted (thus being legally Catholic) and Jews in the same situation.

All that we “know” about the Spanish Inquisition until quite recently was based on Dutch and English period propaganda – which was wildly wrong.

I think you might try to find out a bit more about the inquisition. LOL…I guess you missed the part about forced conversions in Spain.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

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Thanks so much. Siiiiiiigh! ANOTHER book, woe is me. I need six eyes and three heads to absorb all I want to read. Peace.

I’d beware of Vern’s recommendations. I don’t think he reads anything that is not apologetic in nature. Such is not a way to seek truth, but only to defend what you have already chosen to believe.

 

[chosen_people]

Not doubting, but asking. Where did your info. come from? Are you Jewish? Peace

Forgive me if the question seems a little strange to me, sort of asking me for my sources about Jews dying in the Holocaust or what are my sources that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour.

If we view the European Holocaust as a holocaust of Ashkenazi Jewry we may view the inqusition and the events around it as the Sephardic Holocaust.

Yes I am Jewish. In addition to academic studies in Law and political science I also have an academic background in Jewish history and the history of Zionism.

I know that there is a concerted effort by certain Catholic appologists to either falsely dismiss the inquisitions as minor incidents or to falsely claim that the acts were divorced from Catholicism and the Catholic Church. Others wish to dismiss the inquisitions as a Protestant or Jewish myth. Still others claim, imorally and illogically, that since many were victims of forced conversions to Catholicism in order to maintain their livelihood and to not be expelled, the inquisitions were an internal Catholic matter. In fact, as stated, they affected the entire Jewish community. Please know that no victim of the inquisition was ever aquitted. You either confessed your guilt or were found guilty.

I would be happy to guide you to reliable historical sources if you explain what you specifically wish to learn: the edicts behind the inquisitions and their connection to the Catholic Church, the expulsion of the Jews in 1492, the forced conversions, massacres of Jews, the political and religious reasoning behind the inquisitions, the effect of the inquisitions on the Spanish economy etc. If you feel uncomfortable discussing these matters openly please feel free to send me a private message.

Finally, it is not my wish by giving a more accurate and reliable account of these events to attack or impugn in any way Catholics or the Catholic Church. My interest on this forum is two fold. First, as a place where I may practice and improve my english. Secondly, my interest in examining how Jews and Jewish history are perceived by non Jews.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Protestants were seen as heretics from Catholicism, so some of them were killed. Not many at all, from what I’ve read, but a few (in Spanish territory, I mean).

I really would like to know what your source is about the witch hunts being limited to Protestant countries. That is not what I’ve read. I have read that it was most virulent in Protestant countries, but that there were still a lot of witchcraft trials going on in this time period (1450-1750) in Catholic countries. I’d really like to know your source .

You realize you’re asking me to prove a negative?

The Spanish Inquisition, in particular, did hold a few – a very few – witch trials and was ordered to stop by the Pope.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Forgive me if the question seems a little strange to me, sort of asking me for my sources about Jews dying in the Holocaust or what are my sources that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour.

If we view the European Holocaust as a holocaust of Ashkenazi Jewry we may view the inqusition and the events around it as the Sephardic Holocaust.

Yes I am Jewish. In addition to academic studies in Law and political science I also have an academic background in Jewish history and the history of Zionism.

I was shocked that you were asked. I found your statements correct from everything I have read or heard certainly.

I know that there is a concerted effort by certain Catholic appologists to either falsely dismiss the inquisitions as minor incidents or to falsely claim that the acts were divorced from Catholicism and the Catholic Church. Others wish to dismiss the inquisitions as a Protestant or Jewish myth. Still others claim, imorally and illogically, that since many were victims of forced conversions to Catholicism in order to maintain their livelihood and to not be expelled, the inquisitions were an internal Catholic matter. In fact, as stated, they affected the entire Jewish community. Please know that no victim of the inquisition was ever aquitted. You either confessed your guilt or were found guilty.

Part of the problem here is that this is a defined apologetics site. This means that the effort is made to defend the faith,not examine it or define it. That defense has gone awry IMO. You will get a firm argument that Galileo was never mistreated by the Church and that it was and is a big misunderstanding. A misunderstanding that JPII apparently suffered as well, since he offered the apology.

I would be happy to guide you to reliable historical sources if you explain what you specifically wish to learn: the edicts behind the inquisitions and their connection to the Catholic Church, the expulsion of the Jews in 1492, the forced conversions, massacres of Jews, the political and religious reasoning behind the inquisitions, the effect of the inquisitions on the Spanish economy etc. If you feel uncomfortable discussing these matters openly please feel free to send me a private message.

Finally, it is not my wish by giving a more accurate and reliable account of these events to attack or impugn in any way Catholics or the Catholic Church. My interest on this forum is two fold. First, as a place where I may practice and improve my english. Secondly, my interest in examining how Jews and Jewish history are perceived by non Jews.

Your english is better than most natives! I hope you stay.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread has strayed from the original topic. Please take side discussions to new or existing threads. Thank you all.

 

[elt1956]

Forgive me if the question seems a little strange to me, sort of asking me for my sources about Jews dying in the Holocaust or what are my sources that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour.

If we view the European Holocaust as a holocaust of Ashkenazi Jewry we may view the inqusition and the events around it as the Sephardic Holocaust.

Yes I am Jewish. In addition to academic studies in Law and political science I also have an academic background in Jewish history and the history of Zionism.

I know that there is a concerted effort by certain Catholic appologists to either falsely dismiss the inquisitions as minor incidents or to falsely claim that the acts were divorced from Catholicism and the Catholic Church. Others wish to dismiss the inquisitions as a Protestant or Jewish myth. Still others claim, imorally and illogically, that since many were victims of forced conversions to Catholicism in order to maintain their livelihood and to not be expelled, the inquisitions were an internal Catholic matter. In fact, as stated, they affected the entire Jewish community. Please know that no victim of the inquisition was ever aquitted. You either confessed your guilt or were found guilty.

I would be happy to guide you to reliable historical sources if you explain what you specifically wish to learn: the edicts behind the inquisitions and their connection to the Catholic Church, the expulsion of the Jews in 1492, the forced conversions, massacres of Jews, the political and religious reasoning behind the inquisitions, the effect of the inquisitions on the Spanish economy etc. If you feel uncomfortable discussing these matters openly please feel free to send me a private message.

Finally, it is not my wish by giving a more accurate and reliable account of these events to attack or impugn in any way Catholics or the Catholic Church. My interest on this forum is two fold. First, as a place where I may practice and improve my english. Secondly, my interest in examining how Jews and Jewish history are perceived by non Jews.

Dear Chosen. I didn’t mean to send a message of doubt to you in what you say. I am searching for the best source for the truth. I will send a private message. Peace.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’d beware of Vern’s recommendations. I don’t think he reads anything that is not apologetic in nature. Such is not a way to seek truth, but only to defend what you have already chosen to believe.

I’d beware of SpiritMeadow’s recommendations. I don’t think he reads anything that is not apologetic in nature. Such is not a way to seek truth, but only to defend what you have already chosen to believe.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I’d beware of SpiritMeadow’s recommendations. I don’t think he reads anything that is not apologetic in nature. Such is not a way to seek truth, but only to defend what you have already chosen to believe.

I am not a he. Continue with the tantrum.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I am not a he. Continue with the tantrum.

So you recognize your own words as a tantrum.

 

[elt1956]

I am not a he. Continue with the tantrum.

Okay you two. Put up your dukes. Peace.

 

[elt1956]

Dear Chosen. I didn’t mean to send a message of doubt to you in what you say. I am searching for the best source for the truth. I will send a private message. Peace.

Dear Chosen. In 1961, I visited Germany for the first and only time in my life. My friend and I went to Dachau. I saw the ovens and through pictures, the results of the atrocities committed against Jewish men, women and children at this death camp. As I was standing there looking at these things, a feeling of utter suffocation came over me. I literally ran to the door and jumped over the schrubs that had been planted in front of the porch. Only after getting outside, could I breathe again. The memorial, which I believe was placed on the barbed wire enclosure at that time was also barbed wire, but it looked to me to be in the shape of a crown of thorns. Peace.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.