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vern_humphrey
Guest
Amen.Yes. Complete power “in anything” corrupts.Peace.
Let the Church do the Church’s business – preaching the word of God. Let the government do the government’s business – and stay strictly within the limits imposed by the Constitution.
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elt1956
Guest
Hi Vern. I agree with your answer whole heartedly but, I just can’t resist, since I “think” I have all the answers. I think I’ll become Pope. You can be the Pres. :dancing: Peace.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Nuh uh! I’m already a Cardinal in pecardis
po18guy
Well-known member
Both Christ and Saint Paul taught obedience to civil authority. Civil authority tends, as does the Vatican government, to reflect all of our human faults. This is in practice, if not in design. Saint Paul particularly stressed this obedience to authority, since the Father also created those who are in authority over us.
Where do these questions come from, anyway? And what possible alternative is either proposed or even remotely possible?
Christ’s peace.
Where do these questions come from, anyway? And what possible alternative is either proposed or even remotely possible?
Christ’s peace.
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elt1956
Guest
If I were you, I would just be waiting on pins and needles.Nuh uh! I’m already a Cardinal in pecardis
Seriously, bless you. Peace.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
So that’s what’s causing these pains in my hips!If I were you, I would just be waiting on pins and needles.
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
Religious fanatics always think that their proposed Church/state will be different than the one’s of history or in the present. Catholic ultra conservatives are no different in this respect. Of course they are terribly wrong and we all know that. That is why all fringe groups remain minorities. Of course in the very Church/states round about the world, they would not be allowed to speak. They inhabit only the countries where they are allowed to speak openly of their theocratic intent.My take on this is the fact that in a Democracy no one is being told what chruch to go to, religion to believe in, who to vote for. I cannot imagine living in a nation that has a religious as head of the government. Look at the Muslim countries. Would you want to live in a land that lets extremists run the government? What about the Spanish Inquisition in Europe, especially in Spain. Would you have wanted to live at that time? I, for one, am very happy we have separation of church and state. Our Democracy here in the United State states is called the Great Experiment. It exists no where else in the same form. It is not Democracy per se that is causing the difficulties we now face. It is the people’s disinterest in it.
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
I find it ironic that you say that, in view of the fact that “Catholic ultra conservatives” were virtually the entire population of Europe throughout the Medieval Ages.
The Church only accepted freedom of religion in the mid-20th century.
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elt1956
Guest
And thus we had the Inquisition whose main victims were the Jews.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Actually, the only victims of the Inquisition were Catholics. It had no jurisdiction over Jews, Muslims or Protestants (or witches, for that matter – which is why the horror of the witch hunts was confined to Protestant countries.)
The Spanish Inquisition was concerned with finding potential enemy agents – Muslims who had falsely converted (thus being legally Catholic) and Jews in the same situation.
All that we “know” about the Spanish Inquisition until quite recently was based on Dutch and English period propaganda – which was wildly wrong.
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elt1956
Guest
Yeah, I was talking about the Spainish Inquisition
Where do I find the “truth” as historians see it?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
You might start with The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision by Henry Kamen. Fittingly enough, the concluding chapter is entitled, “Inventing the Inquisition” and documents how the Inquisition that we “know” was a product of anti-Spanish and anti-Catholic propaganda.Yeah, I was talking about the Spainish Inquisition
The Spaniards were intensely legalistic and bureaucratic. And all Inquisitors were lawyers – so detailed records were kept.
The problem is, the Spaniard archivists were the ultimate bureaucrats – they filed documents in the most convenient way for themselves – by page size!! Since page sizes weren’t standardized, a 3-page document would be split up and each page filed in a different place.
When desktop computers were developed, the modern archivists began requiring researchers to fill out a form on every page they studied. This built up a database, and nowadays it is possible to find things that earlier were totally lost. This, in turn has allowed historians to build up a true picture of the Inquisition.
Now, don’t get me wrong – the Inquisition was a disgrace. But compared to religious repression in other countries, like England and Germany during the same time frame (ca 1500 to 1650) it was very mild.
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elt1956
Guest
Thanks so much. Siiiiiiigh! ANOTHER book, woe is me. I need six eyes and three heads to absorb all I want to read.
Peace.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I know how you feel.
Thanks so much. Siiiiiiigh! ANOTHER book, woe is me. I need six eyes and three heads to absorb all I want to read.
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embertx3
Guest
Like the song goes…‘don’t know much about history…’ but I know that Democracy is man made. I see it like Man vs Church/God.
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
Protestants were seen as heretics from Catholicism, so some of them were killed. Not many at all, from what I’ve read, but a few (in Spanish territory, I mean).
I really would like to know what your source is about the witch hunts being limited to Protestant countries. That is not what I’ve read. I have read that it was most virulent in Protestant countries, but that there were still a lot of witchcraft trials going on in this time period (1450-1750) in Catholic countries. I’d really like to know your source
.
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elt1956
Guest
If I remember correctly, the French Revolution was anit anything that smacked of religion. Probably because the Catholic Religion was predominant in France at that time is why we think of it being only Anti-Catholic.
And I say, Hurray for Democracy. It’s not perfect, but it is better than having a Religious fanatic at it’s head. Can you imagine a Muslim Democracy? Or even a Catholic one, without the Constitution, Amendments etc. to hold it in check? Power corrupts. In fact I think Henry VIII and his daughter of blessed memory Mary tried it. Brrrrrrrr. Makes me shudder.
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chosen_people
Guest
The entire Jewish community of the Iberian penninsula whom had lived there for over a millenium were either expelled or killed or forced converted to Catholicism. Indeed quite mild.
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
Prior to Vatican II, however, the Church was operating from the assumption that large swaths of the population were Catholic. The reality has changed. I’m not advocating moral or religious relativism here, but practically speaking, what is the alternative? A government that locks people up for skipping Mass?
I think the ideal situation would be to live in the Vatican city, subject to the temporal and religious rule of the pope. The Church acknowledges, however, that the existence of other states is legitimate – she makes no claims of earthly dominion. Ultimately, though, she calls on all nations to govern justly – and that is the key. A government that forbids any given religion is no better than a government that forces its people into a given religion – even if that religion is the One True Church, how just is it to force people into it by legislation?
Christ often let people walk away from Him. Are we to force them to turn back?
Peace,
Dante
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