Demonic possession and sins?

[MtnDwellar]

That is very true. One point that Tim Staple makes from the writings of St Paul in the epistles is that without particular grace, humans are not able to tell the difference between a demon, an angel, a saint, or Jesus.

You correct except with an exception. If the entity identifies itself either by name or by kind as a demon, then I am pretty sure that even without any particular grace, it’s a demon.

There’s another theory out there: demons are separated from Grace. They are blind to God, to God’s grace, and to all the actions of God. Many demons, as an exorcism goes on, complain of being blind, or that the exorcist or the victim has become “opaque”. The demon can no longer see their sins or project mental images and messages to them. Thus a lot of researchers feel that demons have no knowledge or ability to see God, and cannot see anything protected by God. The same thing happened in the crucifixion: Satan thought he had the ultimate victory in killing Christ. He could not see God’s plan, God’s work, or God’s grace that would flow from this. Demons are blind to God.

So while they can see that they have the potential to wreak havoc in someone’s life, they cannot see the resulting grace and actions of God which will produce good from their actions… they do not know that their actions will be contrary to their goals.

I think that you are saying that a demon can see a victims sins and project mental images, until during an exorcism the individual becomes protected by God and then the demon is “blinded”.

It still seems that the demons will know, based upon past experiences, a person may very well turn toward God after being confronted by demons in an infestation. I may very well be wrong, but my suspicion is that a majority turn toward God in that situation. And yet, demons still cause infestations.

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

That is very true. One point that Tim Staple makes from the writings of St Paul in the epistles is that without particular grace, humans are not able to tell the difference between a demon, an angel, a saint, or Jesus.

That is, we have no way of looking at an apparition and uniquely determining whether or not what we’re seeing is good and true, or false and dazzling.

There are some people who do have the gift of discernment of spirit - good and evil. Sadly not all have this gift and can easily be taken in by what approaches them as being some good or needing help.

It is only through the teaching of the church that we can guage what we’re being told and determine if it is true to the doctrines of the Church, hence why any apparitions or such supernatural events should be immediately submitted for church review.

I whole heartedly agree that discussing with the Church of any apparitions or supernatural events.

It is important to note that while your progression is very true, it is not universally true. A demon does not need to oppress someone in order to gain that foothold. The mere embracement of certain heresies can open that door, even without prior influence from a demon. Hence, again, why we are to cleave both to the sacraments and to the doctrinal authority of the Church. When we follow both closely, it is impossible to be fully possessed and require a major exorcism.

I do believe that a rejection of ones established beliefs of a religious body, if once Christian I believe is part of the processes of diabolical interference. I do agree that there are other ways to become diabolically possessed, personally I do not believe it is rare as many would like to think.

Say for instance, have you ever talked to a person who you know relatively well - has been amenable and friendly. You watch in front of your eyes as this person - turns on you for no reason at all. Then comes back into their own - as if nothing had happened. I have seen this often - what I also see is a significant change in their personality/behaviour, darking of the eyes with subtle changes within their facial features. Reminds me of the marionette’s puppeteer or manipulator aka demonic interference.

 

[TheSeraphim]

Your entire post is a very good take on demonic infestation. I would say that parts are enlightening. Thanks for posting.

I think that you are correct in the progression from infestation to oppression/obsession. This progression is hard to pin down. It lacks concreteness. The victim might end up with many different kinds of struggles but cannot assign a diabolic cause.

Often times an infestation pushes a person to a closer relationship with God and the Church. I am wondering why a demon will take a chance at sending someone towards Christ??? He can remain subtle and cause chaos and temptations. Instead, he chooses to manifest in obvious ways.

My current best thoughts are that the demons cannot help themselves. They are egotistical and prideful things. I think that they are having fun. They are sometimes known to demonstrate a sense of humor, albeit sarcastic and blasphemous. It is also an outward way for them to control a person. A simple example is, if they make an object disappear, they cause the person to look for it. They can also promote a sense of wonderment or astonishment in their prey, thereby making themselves seem powerful.

The demons will hide itself as long as possible for their greatest trick in the world is to make people believe they do not exist. They do not want to manifest themselves. Instead, they are weakened by the person’s prayers and faithful life that they have obliged to manifest itself. This applies only to people who are already possess and do not know it until the demon manifests itself which is often the case. I’m not saying you shouldn’t improve on your spiritual life. In fact you should because getting rid of the demon’s influence will set you free.

In fact the weaker a person’s spiritual life is to sin the stronger the demon is and is able to hide itself within the person. Contrarily, the stronger a person’s spiritual life is the weaker the demon and eventually cannot “hide” itself as will manifest itself. There are a few exceptions however.

Think of it this way, the demon will never want to manifest itself or make the person aware of their existence because it will lead to their exorcism. The process of exorcising a demon out of a person hurts so much for them that they would rather “go to hell” than suffer this exorcism says Fr. Gabriele Amorth. They will within all their strength to remain in that person’s body but the process of unlatching, or exorcising the demon, hurts them so much that they pretty much submit to this rather than suffering this humility.

If it can get away with manifesting itself and have the person still remain in sin it will do so accordingly. Man is made in the image and likeness of God and they will inflict as much pain within their rights. If it wasn’t for God’s protection through our Guardian Angels, we’d be all dead.

The demon is like a corrupt lawyer seeking to find every opportunity to persecute a human being (see Book of Job). God made some rules and regulations that the demon is obliged to comply with. Demons are obsessed to work with rules and regulations and are allowed certain manifestations and power over man if they are in a certain state of sin or declaration.

It becomes really “unfair” (which demons are) that a person can just play with occult mediums without their full knowledge that they are committing a sin and then the demon says “Oh, see that God? He disobeyed the laws. I have a right to oppress and possess him now.”

The demons cannot help themselves indeed. With every opportunity to cause damage to man they will take. Remember that God is love and that Satan is the complete opposite (not equal) of that since he is so far from God. It’s important to mention that God and Satan aren’t even close to equals, it’s not a good vs evil thing. God is a lot more powerful and there are more angels in heaven than in hell (3:1).

Satan and his (fallen) angels are fueled with the hate for God and that’s how what their hierarchy is based on. Think of it as energy levels that makes up their whole spiritual nature. With God being pure love, like a candlelight of fire while the demons are without that fire of love being completely cold and hateful.

Literally if you aren’t in God’s graces you will be full of hate and anguish. People in hell as mentioned from the visionaries of Medjugorje and among a couple of other visionaries who describe hell as a state with complete hate for God. People will burn and suffocate with intense feeling for eternity while cursing and blaspheming God’s name.

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

Your entire post is a very good take on demonic infestation. I would say that parts are enlightening. Thanks for posting.

I think that you are correct in the progression from infestation to oppression/obsession. This progression is hard to pin down. It lacks concreteness. The victim might end up with many different kinds of struggles but cannot assign a diabolic cause.

Often times an infestation pushes a person to a closer relationship with God and the Church. I am wondering why a demon will take a chance at sending someone towards Christ??? He can remain subtle and cause chaos and temptations. Instead, he chooses to manifest in obvious ways.

Diabolic infestation can bring a person closer relationship to God and the Church and can be a wake up call or reminder that God exists and is here to help. I guess there are instances when this does not necessarily occur and people stray off in another direction.

My current best thoughts are that the demons cannot help themselves. They are egotistical and prideful things. I think that they are having fun. They are sometimes known to demonstrate a sense of humor, albeit sarcastic and blasphemous. It is also an outward way for them to control a person. A simple example is, if they make an object disappear, they cause the person to look for it. They can also promote a sense of wonderment or astonishment in their prey, thereby making themselves seem powerful.

Demonic humour is cruel in nature, it attacks, loss of sleep, nervousness with heightened reactions and excessive worry can affect a person’s well-being which in turn can affect a person’s ability to function in a healthy and productive way. Diabolic oppression is more common than we realize.

On a positive note I think the key to living a full, healthy and spiritually balanced life is to do one’s best to stay within a state of grace at all times.

 

[MtnDwellar]

The demons will hide itself as long as possible for their greatest trick in the world is to make people believe they do not exist. They do not want to manifest themselves. Instead, they are weakened by the person’s prayers and faithful life that they have obliged to manifest itself. This applies only to people who are already possess and do not know it until the demon manifests itself which is often the case. I’m not saying you shouldn’t improve on your spiritual life. In fact you should because getting rid of the demon’s influence will set you free.

If it can get away with manifesting itself and have the person still remain in sin it will do so accordingly. Man is made in the image and likeness of God and they will inflict as much pain within their rights. If it wasn’t for God’s protection through our Guardian Angels, we’d be all dead.

So, you are saying that the demon may be obliged or compelled to manifest by God? The manifestation is then a gift from God, which enables a person to identify a source of trouble in his life. Cool.

 

[promethius]

It still seems that the demons will know, based upon past experiences, a person may very well turn toward God after being confronted by demons in an infestation. I may very well be wrong, but my suspicion is that a majority turn toward God in that situation. And yet, demons still cause infestations.

You would think that might be the case, but a demon surely doesn’t care. If he wins once then he has taken a soul and hurt God’s heart. Maybe they might try a hundred times, and only get away with one soul in the long run… but that might be worth it to a demon.

I think a far more likely hypothesis is that they get away with it more than we know. Those who are fully possessed do not present themselves for the sacraments, they are repulsed by them, and in our culture where the influence of the church is fading from the mainstream, its entirely possible that MANY possessed persons are living out their lives and dying in a state of damnation.

A demon also has no way of knowing whether or not someone will turn to God more closely after being exorcised. They literally cannot see and know when and how grace might become involved in expelling them. They are utterly blind to grace and all its actions.

 

[promethius]

The demons will hide itself as long as possible for their greatest trick in the world is to make people believe they do not exist. They do not want to manifest themselves. Instead, they are weakened by the person’s prayers and faithful life that they have obliged to manifest itself. This applies only to people who are already possess and do not know it until the demon manifests itself which is often the case. I’m not saying you shouldn’t improve on your spiritual life. In fact you should because getting rid of the demon’s influence will set you free.

One minor correction: those who are fully possessed, and not just victims of obsession/opression, will not avail themselves of the sacraments, or if they do they will either secretly or overtly try to disrespect/dessecrate the sacraments. By the time a full possession sets in, the demon is so present in the person’s will that they have an aversion to the sacraments in place.

In terms of minor possessions, obsession and opression that is, the sacraments may provoke the demon into revealing itself though, so this is correct in that regard.

 

[jc1969]

To say someone who is a born again (through their belief in Jesus and baptism of course) and Holy Spirit-filled (through confirmation and along with prayer and the other normal means provided in our catholic faith) can be ‘possessed’ by a demon against his or her will (were not talking oppression or obsession here) is so theologically fraught with problems, it is a wonder as to why this is seriously discussed. I have done over two years of study in this area and it was a major stumbling block on my reversion to the Catholic faith when I started reading discussions saying there have been ‘saints’ of the Church ‘possessed’ by demons. No, not ‘opressed’ or ‘obsessed’, but people were stating that theses saints have been ‘possessed’! Also, I’m not talking about persons who were ‘infested’ before coming to Christ or have left a ‘doorway open to the demonic realm’ after coming to Jesus. I’m talking about people who had no association with the demonic, were lost, found Christ and his Church, repented, were baptised and are now living as Jesus has enjoined them to do. Goodness sakes! There is absolutely no evidence from scripture as to a person of saintly character being, ‘possessed’ by the devil or demons, (oppressed…yes…possessed…no) and plenty in scripture to strongly imply, if not directly state, otherwise. There is sooo much that can be said against such a view from scripture and reason that there simply is not enough space to even start here. Even the great philosopher Peter Kreeft states that according to Thomistic theology, a faithful Christian cannot be demon possessed against his or her will, although many can and will be seriously oppressed. I could go on and on…
In the Love of Jesus

 

[jc1969]

In one short example among a whole pletitude, to state that someone is in a ‘state of grace’ is something the can’t be known objectively by us and concretely only by God himself. So to state that a person can be known to be in a state of grace and still be possessed by a demon is quite an assumption to make since we do not know the condition of the heart or soul of the person one is claiming to be a ‘saint’ and possessed the same time. That is speculative at best. One could be in a state of serous mortal sin and still go through the sacraments often deepening his or her culpability in the process. One also needs to take into account the advances in phycological sciences and consider these rare cases in light of now known mental illnesses. People use extremely rare examples from history to try to say that there have been those suppossedly possessed by demons and possessed by the Holy Spirit of God at the same time claiming that that is proof enough instead of relying on sound biblical evidence that demonstrates to the contrary that this is extremely likely to not even be possible. To say that the Holy Spirit resides in the temple of God (the person saved and in the state of grace) with a demon or satan himself causes so much theological confusion and blurring of the line of the understanding of the Holiness of God, among other problems, that to believe so, is borderline… dangerous teaching. God saves his people and protects them from the molester that satan is. One quick scripture quote among the many that can be said…1John 5:18…“for we know that those born of God do not sin for the Son of God protects them and the evil one does not touch them.”

 

[kmuestwin]

In one short example among a whole pletitude, to state that someone is in a ‘state of grace’ is something the can’t be known objectively by us and concretely only by God himself.

When I leave the confessional after confessing and being absolved of my sins by my priest, I know that at that moment and until I sin again, I am in a state of grace.

 

[jc1969]

Yes, Lord be praised, if you are truly repentent and are resolved to commit the sins no further…amen… you are… but again that is something only God knows in the absolute…also I am talking about the observation of a person of another person. We cannot personally know the state of a persons soul… i hope that made better sense.

 

[jc1969]

let me add that we can know the state of a baptised person or baby before the an age of reason…that would be considered an exception i think…=)

 

[bjoy73]

You may be interested in reading the book “Ransomed From Darkness” by Moira Noonan. It is not written in a sensational dramatic way.

It is the story of a young woman who got started in Reiki, and her involvement in the occult grew after that.
Finally, she returned to the Catholic faith. Well written!

Here is Moira Noonan’s site:

spiritbattleforsouls.org/

I love to see someone who is a reader. Some other good resources are An Exorcist Tells His Story by Fr. Gabriele Amorth (the Vatican’s exorcist for a while) and The Beautiful Side of Evil by Johanna Michaelson (not sure it’s still in print). Fr. Amorth depicts in some ways that what he did was “just another day at the office” with a few cases that are similar to popular media accounts. The Cure of Ars had a similar attitude toward Satan and his legions. Just remember the end of “the Book” has already been written, and we win.

 

[jc1969]

Thanks for the word! Father Amorth was one of the first books I looked into when investigating this subject and as to what the Church teaches on this before my reversion to the Catholic faith. I admire Father Amorth and his courage and (name removed by moderator)ut on this subject and in no way want to disparage his name, but his book has some serious defects and these have been pointed out and criticized by many. For example, google Edward Peters critique of his book ‘An exorcist tells his story’. One among a number of negative reviews of his material and statements. Don’t get me wrong… I admire Father Amorth, always a priest, for what he does in the Name of Jesus and his courage, but his contribution to this subject does have some serious problems.
In the love of Jesus!

 

[jc1969]

Also, according to Jimmy Akin, the Vatican does not have a ‘chief’ exorcist…Father Amorth is considered an ‘elder’ exorcist, as it were, among those in Rome.

 

[Vladd]

Well I sure hope I’m not possessed , I’m a neo pagan but for some reason I am pulled to Catholicism all of the sudden, I think to just make sure one last time!

 

[Vladd]

Well I sure hope I’m not possessed , I’m a neo pagan but for some reason I am pulled to Catholicism all of the sudden, I think to just make sure one last time!

To add to this, do you guys know where the word (demon) comes from ?

 

[bmullins]

To add to this, do you guys know where the word (demon) comes from ?

A demon is from Ancient Greek, δαίμων daímōn (sometimes spelled daemon.) It usually means an unclean spirit, and/or a malevolent one.

 

[Vladd]

A demon is from Ancient Greek, δαίμων daímōn (sometimes spelled daemon.) It usually means an unclean spirit, and/or a malevolent one.

Thanks for replying

 

[Vladd]

Well I sure hope I’m not possessed , I’m a neo pagan but for some reason I am pulled to Catholicism all of the sudden, I think to just make sure one last time!

Any thoughts ? After reading this stuff it kind of spooks me!