Demonic possession and sins?

[fakename]

Hi,

God allows possession for two reasons it can be said that God allows evil for two reasons as well] 1. free will and 2. to bring a greater good out of it.

The statement where you say that ALL possessions have these causes is false. There are instances and cases where it is documented that the possessed person did not sin and was in a state of grace. See the post that I previously posted about the possession of saints.

Demons cannot change the Will of a person. God himself will not change the will of a person. For example, I can will to kill someone all that I want, but God may not allow me to do so. However by his not allowing me to kill that person, does not change the fact that I want to kill him with all my will. Demons can compel the possessed to do things against their will, but they cannot force them to change their will. Only the possessor of the Will can change their will.

Also demons cannot have union with the possessed’s soul. Only God can have union with the soul.

God bless.

Well beside there being some problems with my argument formally, I think that there is a way of salvaging my possession=punishment thesis, namely that any punishment can be assumed by anyone such that innocent people can voluntarily take on a punishment and God can cause this to happen if it is for the greater good. So the possession is still a punishment but it is not the possessed person’s punishment. This is true since for any man, “A willing person suffers no injustice” -and this we may imagine applies to punishment.

 

[Little_One0307]

Well beside there being some problems with my argument formally, I think that there is a way of salvaging my possession=punishment thesis, namely that any punishment can be assumed by anyone such that innocent people can voluntarily take on a punishment and God can cause this to happen if it is for the greater good. So the possession is still a punishment but it is not the possessed person’s punishment. This is true since for any man, “A willing person suffers no injustice” -and this we may imagine applies to punishment.

Okay I can understand where you are coming from. So how do you explain children who are under the age of accountability who become possessed?

But I can see in some instances your punishment thoery can be held to be true.

God bless.

 

[fakename]

Okay I can understand where you are coming from. So how do you explain children who are under the age of accountability who become possessed?

But I can see in some instances your punishment thoery can be held to be true.

God bless.

Oh no, I’m back to randomness theory again.

In anycase, I know a demon can’t control someone’s will but when it possesses someone, can it use the possession to tempt the will just as they tempt man w/o possessions?

 

[MtnDwellar]

Oh no, I’m back to randomness theory again.

In anycase, I know a demon can’t control someone’s will but when it possesses someone, can it use the possession to tempt the will just as they tempt man w/o possessions?

I think that Fr. Amorth tells us that most of the time a possessed individual still has free will, but during an acute crisis the demon takes full control and the human will is usurped.

 

[fakename]

I think that Fr. Amorth tells us that most of the time a possessed individual still has free will, but during an acute crisis the demon takes full control and the human will is usurped.

I don’t think the will itself is capable of being totally usurped. I think it can be influenced strongly though. Is that what you mean?

 

[MtnDwellar]

I don’t think that is what I meant.

I looked up the quote, “No matter what the origins, possession does not deprive us of freedom except during times of acute crisis, when we are not responsible for our words and actions. Freedom of the will, nevertheless, remains. We are still free to commit good or evil actions, to sanctify ourselves or to damn ourselves.”

From An Exorcist Tells His Story

Now that I am re-reading it, it seems like his second sentence contradicts the first. How are we supposed to take this???

 

[fakename]

I don’t think that is what I meant.

I looked up the quote, “No matter what the origins, possession does not deprive us of freedom except during times of acute crisis, when we are not responsible for our words and actions. Freedom of the will, nevertheless, remains. We are still free to commit good or evil actions, to sanctify ourselves or to damn ourselves.”

From An Exorcist Tells His Story

Now that I am re-reading it, it seems like his second sentence contradicts the first. How are we supposed to take this???

The will is mostly free until something disturbs it like possession. But the part of the will is also the inner lived experience of the mind which doesn’t necessarily have to be translated into action. This is just speculation, but I think that a modicum of this must still exist in possessed persons and it is this which gives them the ability to do good things within the confines of their own minds, if not outside of those confines.

 

[MtnDwellar]

The will is mostly free until something disturbs it like possession. But the part of the will is also the inner lived experience of the mind which doesn’t necessarily have to be translated into action. This is just speculation, but I think that a modicum of this must still exist in possessed persons and it is this which gives them the ability to do good things within the confines of their own minds, if not outside of those confines.

Hey! That’s pretty good. So, I think that you saying that the will is free but the actions are externally controlled. In the case of possession actions and will are not in sync.

 

[Little_One0307]

Oh no, I’m back to randomness theory again.

In anycase, I know a demon can’t control someone’s will but when it possesses someone, can it use the possession to tempt the will just as they tempt man w/o possessions?

Ahhh okay, well to the randomness theory, it may look random, but nothing happens that God does not know about. We don’t have the full picture, so what looks random to us, is His Divine Providence. Again I go back to the 2 reasons why evil is allowed in the world.

Yes to your question too.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Hey! That’s pretty good. So, I think that you saying that the will is free but the actions are externally controlled. In the case of possession actions and will are not in sync.

Yes you hit the nail on the head. YOu can be compelled to do things you don’t want to do, but they can never change your will. Only you can change your will.

God bless.

 

[fakename]

Ahhh okay, well to the randomness theory, it may look random, but nothing happens that God does not know about. We don’t have the full picture, so what looks random to us, is His Divine Providence. Again I go back to the 2 reasons why evil is allowed in the world.

Yes to your question too.

God bless.

Well if they can still tempt man during possessions then my other reason for demonic attacks -namely the reason of “inciting men to sin” applies here too. So under age people can be possessed if the demon wants to use it to incite a sin.

 

[Little_One0307]

Well if they can still tempt man during possessions then my other reason for demonic attacks -namely the reason of “inciting men to sin” applies here too. So under age people can be possessed if the demon wants to use it to incite a sin.

But how can someone under the age of acountability that does not know what sin is, sin? I am not asking these questions to bait you, I am wanting to understand where you are coming from.

Thanks for anwering my questions.

God bless.

 

[fakename]

But how can someone under the age of acountability that does not know what sin is, sin? I am not asking these questions to bait you, I am wanting to understand where you are coming from.

Thanks for anwering my questions.

God bless.

Well if they don’t know what they are doing then they can’t sin. But then what is this “age of accountability”? I don’t think that there is an age where you are inherently incapable of sinning, since if there was, then assuming that you receive Baptism, then you aren’t going to be guilty of any sin -venial, mortal, or original. This means that on your death you would be as sinless as Mary which is impossible by the Council of Trent -everyone has at least one venial sin.

So clearly the demons can possess you to incite you to at least a venial sin.

 

[Little_One0307]

Well if they don’t know what they are doing then they can’t sin. But then what is this “age of accountability”? I don’t think that there is an age where you are inherently incapable of sinning, since if there was, then assuming that you receive Baptism, then you aren’t going to be guilty of any sin -venial, mortal, or original. This means that on your death you would be as sinless as Mary which is impossible by the Council of Trent -everyone has at least one venial sin.

So clearly the demons can possess you to incite you to at least a venial sin.

Hmmm. Okay. I can agree with this. But I don’t think ALL possessions by demons are to incite one to sin, and I am assuming we are talking about both mortal and venial here correct? What about those that are allowed by God to further the holiness and
sanctification of the one who is possessed?

This is a most interesting conversation. Thanks.

God bless.

 

[fakename]

Hmmm. Okay. I can agree with this. But I don’t think ALL possessions by demons are to incite one to sin, and I am assuming we are talking about both mortal and venial here correct? What about those that are allowed by God to further the holiness and
sanctification of the one who is possessed?

This is a most interesting conversation. Thanks.

God bless.

Well again, on the last question about sanctification -that’s part of the whole punishment part -to the extent someone suffers a punishment (either someone else’s or their own) they can be sanctified in the process.

 

[Little_One0307]

Well again, on the last question about sanctification -that’s part of the whole punishment part -to the extent someone suffers a punishment (either someone else’s or their own) they can be sanctified in the process.

Well I don’t see God punishing us by calling us to be Holy as He is Holy. So with this statement, one could say that all that God allows in our life that increases our Holiness can be thought of as punishment. Dare I need to go further? What could one say of the Eucharist using this line of reason? Or do we just draw the lines at possession?

[NOTE: I have to say this is one the the quiestest threads that I am involved in, and there’s peace. Thanks.]

God bless.

 

[fakename]

Well I don’t see God punishing us by calling us to be Holy as He is Holy. So with this statement, one could say that all that God allows in our life that increases our Holiness can be thought of as punishment. Dare I need to go further? What could one say of the Eucharist using this line of reason? Or do we just draw the lines at possession?

[NOTE: I have to say this is one the the quiestest threads that I am involved in, and there’s peace. Thanks.]

God bless.

well not all sanctification is punishment but sometimes punishment is sanctifying. This is in two ways that i can think of. The first is that punishment has merit and satisfactory value since it expiates one’s sins -in this way penances and guilt causes sanctification. The second is that by being punished one is drawn out of one’s bodily senses and the more one is drawn away from these the closer one can become to God. And in these ways a punishment can help sanctify a person. But possession is a punishment, so it can sanctify someone too.

 

[Little_One0307]

well not all sanctification is punishment but sometimes punishment is sanctifying. This is in two ways that i can think of. The first is that punishment has merit and satisfactory value since it expiates one’s sins -in this way penances and guilt causes sanctification. The second is that by being punished one is drawn out of one’s bodily senses and the more one is drawn away from these the closer one can become to God. And in these ways a punishment can help sanctify a person. But possession is a punishment, so it can sanctify someone too.

I can agree with this. Perhaps one being possessed is actually lessening their time in purgatory then. I think I would rather do my purgatory time here than later.

 

[Tony_Anastasis]

I am interested, as a protestant, to know how long Catholics have been debating the occult on message boards. If only recently, what is spurring it on?

It is interesting to get a Catholic perspective on the subject. Some things surprise me. I am not aware that any Protestant clergy get tormented by demons much in the same way that wilful sinners do, although I am hearing that Catholic clergy do. Why would that be?

One poster implied that my views on demons, insofar as they disagree with the Magisterium would be incorrect. How do others feel on this question?

Footnote: I just read this: I can agree with this. Perhaps one being possessed is actually lessening their time in purgatory then. I think I would rather do my purgatory time here than later.

I cannot conceive of Jesus wanting any one of us to be possessed by a demon. God gives his children good things, bread not stones, eggs not serpants. Please show me from the Holy Scriptures, where any person was given a demon to make them a better person. If they were, then why did Jesus cast them out and send them into pigs?

 

[Little_One0307]

I am interested, as a protestant, to know how long Catholics have been debating the occult on message boards. If only recently, what is spurring it on?

It happens quite frequently and on a regular basis. They range from What are the signs of possession, or am I possessed, or things of that nature. Invariably sometimes possession is mentioned in a thread and that gets things started again.

In my opnion with the Movie The Rite, that may have helped to generate some of the interest. I have been here for a little less than three monthes and have been surprised to see how frequent it comes up.

Also in the prayer intentions prayers against the attack of evil spirits come up frequently too.

It is interesting to get a Catholic perspective on the subject. Some things surprise me. I am not aware that any Protestant clergy get tormented by demons much in the same way that wilful sinners do, although I am hearing that Catholic clergy do. Why would that be?

It’s hard to answer this question because you are asking for bible quotations. We Catholics also believe in Sacred Tradition in addition to Sacred Scripture, and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

One poster implied that my views on demons, insofar as they disagree with the Magisterium would be incorrect. How do others feel on this question?

Next time just say my name, it’s okay.

Footnote: I just read this: I can agree with this. Perhaps one being possessed is actually lessening their time in purgatory then. I think I would rather do my purgatory time here than later.

Man I sure do agree with this one. Purgatory now.

I cannot conceive of Jesus wanting any one of us to be possessed by a demon. God gives his children good things, bread not stones, eggs not serpants. Please show me from the Holy Scriptures, where any person was given a demon to make them a better person. If they were, then why did Jesus cast them out and send them into pigs?

This can be argued by making inferred statements from Scripture in light of Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church, however since you only want Scripture references that makes this a bit harder to answer.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:28[/BIBLEDRB]

IN ALL things, and demonic possession would certainly fall into this category.

You see God permits or allows evil things to happen for 2 reasons. 1. Because of free will and 2. to bring a greater good out of it.

I guarantee that the Crucifixion of our Lord Jesus Christ was a much more evil act than being possessed by demons, yet look at the Inifinite Good and Grace that comes from that.

We cannot see the picture, we are finite creatures. Only God can see eternity and knows all things. We are called to trust in Him at all times and to give thanks in all circumstances. Why? Because God will provide for us and take care of us. It may not be in the way we want it to be, but it will bring us closer to God if we accept the things that come our way.

God bless.