Demonic possession and sins?

[Dorothy]

Pablope,

Thanks for taking your time in looking that up. It does help. I also read elsewhere in other books that those who are being demon possessed, it does provide them a chance for sanctification and reparation of sins while on the earth, read way to many exorcism related things, what do you think of this?

So is the movie pretty good? I had avoided the book because there was a movie made about it. I may look into getting the book, what I mean is, is there some good stuff in there besides the novel things regarding exorcism? Does it maintain and adhere to the Magesterium of the Church?

Thanks. I just wanted to see what someone who read the book thought, before going and buying the book.

God bless.

I have read the book because a priest spoke well of it. It is not written in a sensational way, nor is it anything like the movie “The Excorcist”.

It is a priests experience of having been sent to Rome to observe and learn how to perform excorcisms.
It shows that more priests need that training in this day and age.

 

[pablope]

You should post links if you expect people to study what you have to say. I will, because I want to know where you are coming from, but others may not want to use their time, that way, by looking up someone else’s beliefs.
Do these two sites, represent your view of Canonization, if not please post some links.

Ok.

religionfacts.com/christianity/practices/honoring_saints/canonization.htm

This is a good site and just cites facts.

forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?48296-The-Making-of-a-Roman-Catholic-Saint-The-Canonization-Process/page2

This one is full on anti-catholicism and misrepresents the CC. I would stay away from sites like this. The CAF website has a good search engine, and I would suggest you use it for your information for the true CC teaching.

The link to that article, does not work for me, if you could post the link again, I will try it.
I believe in exorcism, but that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, we are discussing whether Christians can be possessed by demons.

Which link and article?

Christians can get possessed, as I have pointed out. You do not seem to be able to make yourself believe it.

Unless you think Padre Pio, St. Gemma and St. John Vianney are not Christians.

So unless you are saying that exorcists can tell whether someone is saved or not, then this has no bearing on our discussion.

Maybe we are talking different definitions. What do you mean by “saved by an exorcist”? Do you mean saved from the demonic possession or “saved” meaning being in heaven?

I can post it here, John 10:28-29
“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

This verse speaks of Jesus love and protection for his sheep, is the same as the Father’s.

The Bible is not a rule book for God, it is a guidebook, for man, written by God. God is not limited to what is in the Bible, but he decided to put all of his commands and principles, down for us.

I suggest you start a separate thread on this. You could also search the forums for ongoing threads on this subject.

The oral part of God’s word, would you mind posting links explaining that, it is my belief that the reason God had the Bible written, was so that men, would not have to pass things down orally.

Let me ask you one question to ponder and consider starting a thread on the Bible: Why did St. Mark write his gospel?

The CC calls the oral “Sacred Tradition”. I thought you already knew this.

newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm

catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

catholicplanet.com/TSM/insights-tradition.htm

No, but if the Bible says otherwise, then it certainly does mean that it cannot happen!! After consulting my Bible, I have made my conclusion, that Christians cannot be possessed by a demon!!

Here is again the link to St. Gemma Galgani, where she wrote in her diary her battle with the devil:

stgemmagalgani.com/2008/09/saint-gemma-versus-devil.html

Excerpt:
God, in order to purify His elect and render them victims of expiation for themselves and for others, makes use even of the demons, who because of their hatred of souls and their increased intelligence become very profitable instruments to the attainment of His ends.

It depends on what you mean by “catholic”, the actual definition,

When I said catholic, it means teachings of the Catholic Church.

whereas a Catholic, is not always a Christian, just as Baptists are not always Christians, and Presbyterians, are not always Christians.

Why do you say so? Maybe, explain your view of what is a Christian? And how does one not become a christian?

I mean “unitive state of grace”, and “united themselves to Christ’s sufferings”, can’t you think of a simpler way to say that, it may take longer, but if you can get your reader to understand what you’re saying, I think that it is worth it.

CC teaching on States of Grace:newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

Redemptive Suffering:fisheaters.com/offeringitup.html
excerpt:
[SIGN]Victim Souls
This page can’t be complete without mentioning “victim souls.” A victim soul is someone who’s been chosen by God to participate in Christ’s Passion in a very special way by manifesting the signs of His sufferings, often in their very bodies. Suffering for the sake of love is their vocation, and such suffering is willingly accepted for the benefit of the Church. The attitude and plea of the victim soul is summed up by this prayer of St. Catherine of Siena:

The only cause of my death is my zeal for the Church of God, which devours and consumes me. Accept, O Lord, the sacrifice of my life for the Mystical Body of Thy holy Church. [/SIGN]

Padre Pio and St. Gemma Galgani are stigmatics and victim souls, and were both attacked by the devil.

There were two phrases, in your other post, that I asked you to explain, and you have not explained them.

Which are these?

 

[pablope]

Can you re-explain why this has a bearing on our conversation???
We are talking about whether Christians can be possessed by demons right???
Why does exorcism have any bearing on that??? I believe in exorcism, but still it does not address whether the people exorcised were saved or not.

Better give me your definition of “saved” in the exorcism sense. I think we may talking of two different things.

Are you speaking of the Roman Catholic Church??? As in the Church that the Pope is a head of??? Because who was it that Catholics claim was the first head of that Church, Peter?? Peter was not of Divine origin. This alone is another argument, and I believe that one of us should post another thread just to put this one under.

There are several threads on this one. You can start one or search and read through them. This subject is often discussed here with protestants.

On another note, if you got this from CARM, this would explain your views. Unless you are very anti-Catholic, which I hope you are not, I would suggest you re-consider why you are in that forum. There are other well meaning protestant forums.

I admit that I did not watch it. I did not have the time, and it seems irrelevant, to our conversation.

You should watch it. The possessed boy is a Lutheran, a Christian, from a Christian family. This is a real story and was even shown on the Discovery Channel, where I first saw it.

Here is the link again: youtube.com/watch?v=dDgoNlOn-hk

And after watching it, answer “why did the Lutheran minister approach a Catholic priest for assistance?”

As I have been saying, just because someone is labeled a saint, does not mean that they are a Christian.

Why would you say such a thing? Catholics were the very first Christians, or do you disagree with this?

Another subject for another thread.

I am considering your arguments, but the fact remains that God refutes those arguments in the Bible. I would rather go with what God’s Holy Word, says is His view, than with what a man says is God’s view.

Actually, you may not realize, but it is your interpretation, and it is influenced by what you have read elsewhere, what somebody (your pastor perhaps) has told you what those verses mean, by your upbringing, culture and a host of other influences. And this is your “tradition” and you may not realize it.

P.S.
After the next few posts, I may not be back on this site, for a week or two, because I am starting college this week, and I need to focus on my classes. Thanks for having this conversation, I have found it to be very beneficial, and I hope you did as well!!
May God Bless and Protect You

Are you just starting college?

You are welcome, and I find this beneficial too. I would suggest and recommend you read The Rite by Matt Baglio. It is probably in your college or public library.

God bless.

 

[pablope]

pablope;8033882:

Can you re-explain why this has a bearing on our conversation???
We are talking about whether Christians can be possessed by demons right???
Why does exorcism have any bearing on that??? I believe in exorcism, but still it does not address whether the people exorcised were saved or not.

May God Bless and Protect You

Here is an article of interest:

catholicnewsagency.com/news/romes-exorcist-finding-bl.-john-paul-ii-effective-against-satan/

Excerpt:

[SIGN]As for the extraordinary powers used by Satan, Fr. Amorth explained it as how the Devil acts when he focuses his attention more specifically on a person. He categorized the expression of that attention into four types: diabolical possession; diabolical vexation like in the case of Padre Pio, who was beaten by the Devil; obsessions which are able to lead a person to desperation and infestation, and when the Devil occupies a space, an animal or even an object.”

Not surprisingly, ‘Jesus Christ’ is the name Fr. Amorth most often calls upon to expel demons. But he also turns to saintly men and women for their heavenly assistance. Interestingly, he said that in recent years one man – Blessed Pope John Paul II – has proved to be a particularly powerful intercessor.

“I have asked the demon more than once, ‘Why are you so scared of John Paul II and I have had two different responses, both interesting. One, ‘because he disrupted my plans.’ And, I think that he is referring to the fall of communism in Russia and Eastern Europe. The collapse of communism.”

“Another response that he gave me, ‘because he pulled so many young people from my hands.’ There are so many young people who, thanks to John Paul II, were converted. Perhaps some were already Christian but not practicing, but then with John Paul II they came back to the practice. ‘He pulled so many young people out of my hands.’” [/SIGN]

 

[Jon_Leveille]

Wait, so for a saint to be canonized, there just has to be two miracles, that happen in relation to them, after they are dead!!! Where is the Biblical basis for this???
I just know that it would be very easy to fake a miracle, such as the examples, that are shown on that website. Some of those healings and such may have actually happened, when someone was praying, to the saint, or touching one of their relics, but does that mean that the saint did it??? If God did not institute canonization, then who did??? Who has the power to decide how you can tell if another person is saved??? Only God has that power!!

This one is full on anti-catholicism and misrepresents the CC. I would stay away from sites like this. The CAF website has a good search engine, and I would suggest you use it for your information for the true CC teaching.

Ok. I didn’t realize that CAF had a search engine, I will make use of that in the future.

Which link and article?

Christians can get possessed, as I have pointed out. You do not seem to be able to make yourself believe it.

Unless you think Padre Pio, St. Gemma and St. John Vianney are not Christians.

I cannot believe it if God says that it is not true!! If they were actually possessed, then you might want to start rethinking, whether they were actually Christians, or not. This is a quote from one of your earlier posts, talking about the link you keep telling me to read!!

The name of the booklet is “Mary Crushes the Serpent” and I have written an article about it (Click here).

Please correct me if this was not the link you were talking about a few posts earlier.

Maybe we are talking different definitions. What do you mean by “saved by an exorcist”? Do you mean saved from the demonic possession or “saved” meaning being in heaven?

I did not mean “saved by an exorcist”, I meant can an exorcist, tell whether someone is going to heaven, or not??? They cannot, which still leaves me puzzled as to why we are arguing about this. Obviously they can tell whether the person they are exorcising has a demon, but they cannot tell whether they were a saved Christian or not.
My definition of saved, is someone who has accepted Christ into their heart, and is going to heaven when they die.

This verse speaks of Jesus love and protection for his sheep, is the same as the Father’s.

Yes, and giving the Christian over to Satan and his demons, does not sound as if no one can take them out of His hand.

I suggest you start a separate thread on this. You could also search the forums for ongoing threads on this subject.

I agree, I will start one soon!! This needs to be addressed.

Let me ask you one question to ponder and consider starting a thread on the Bible: Why did St. Mark write his gospel?

The CC calls the oral “Sacred Tradition”. I thought you already knew this.

newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm

catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

catholicplanet.com/TSM/insights-tradition.htm

I do not get what you are saying, why would Mark not have written his gospel???
The Bible says nothing about Oral Tradition, I am inclined to believe that this was created so man could add things to God’s Holy Word.

Here is again the link to St. Gemma Galgani, where she wrote in her diary her battle with the devil:

stgemmagalgani.com/2008/09/saint-gemma-versus-devil.html

Excerpt:
God, in order to purify His elect and render them victims of expiation for themselves and for others, makes use even of the demons, who because of their hatred of souls and their increased intelligence become very profitable instruments to the attainment of His ends.
I read it a few posts ago, but thanks for re-posting it.

When I said catholic, it means teachings of the Catholic Church.

Ok.

Why do you say so? Maybe, explain your view of what is a Christian? And how does one not become a christian?

A Christian is someone who has accepted Christ as their Saviour, believes the Word of God, and is going to heaven when they die. You are born with a sin nature, you have to accept Christ as your Saviour to become a Christian.

CC teaching on States of Grace:newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

Redemptive Suffering:fisheaters.com/offeringitup.html
excerpt:
[SIGN]Victim Souls
This page can’t be complete without mentioning “victim souls.” A victim soul is someone who’s been chosen by God to participate in Christ’s Passion in a very special way by manifesting the signs of His sufferings, often in their very bodies. Suffering for the sake of love is their vocation, and such suffering is willingly accepted for the benefit of the Church. The attitude and plea of the victim soul is summed up by this prayer of St. Catherine of Siena:

The only cause of my death is my zeal for the Church of God, which devours and consumes me. Accept, O Lord, the sacrifice of my life for the Mystical Body of Thy holy Church. [/SIGN]

Padre Pio and St. Gemma Galgani are stigmatics and victim souls, and were both attacked by the devil.
Where is the Biblical basis for this???
It seems to me that whenever something does not fit with the Bible, you claim that it is oral tradition, and also God’s Word. I read those sites, and got some of it, but it left me slightly confused, and I felt as if I had wasted the time in reading them. Could you please just explain it yourself???

Which are these?

“the battle for the conversion of sinners”
and “they become the stakes in the battle”
(If I have made any mistakes, please correct me, this was made up in a hurry)

 

[pablope]

Wait, so for a saint to be canonized, there just has to be two miracles, that happen in relation to them, after they are dead!!! Where is the Biblical basis for this???

The Church, through the Pope, was given the authority to bind and lose on earth as in heaven. (It is somewhere in the Bible).

I just know that it would be very easy to fake a miracle, such as the examples, that are shown on that website. but does that mean that the saint did it???

Correct, that is why the CC takes great pains to investigate and discern. That is why it takes years, not the snap of a finger. Who does it? It is still God, through the prayers of intercession of the Saint. And God grants it according to His will.

If God did not institute canonization, then who did???

The Church. I am not that familiar with the history of it. I think the first site you had has a history of canonization also.

Who has the power to decide how you can tell if another person is saved??? Only God has that power!!

Correct. That is why it takes years to canonize, to ascertain that the candidate is in heaven, through the requirement of miracles, before the CC makes a pronouncement. Keep in mind that the CC has been doing this since pentecost.

I cannot believe it if God says that it is not true!! If they were actually possessed, then you might want to start rethinking, !

I think you should read a book about the subject from an actual exorcist. It explains the different levels of possession, what they are and what not. Again, I would recommend The Rite or a book by Fr. Gabriel Amorth-“An Exorcist tells his story”

The attack on those saints was to make them suffer, or to increase their suffering, so that they will stop from getting closer to God. I think until you understand this, you will keep disbelieving.

Mary crushes the serpent:mysticsofthechurch.com/2010/09/mary-crushes-serpent-virgin-marys-role.html

It was buried in another article.

Maybe we are talking different definitions. What do you mean by “saved by an exorcist”? Do you mean saved from the demonic possession or “saved” meaning being in heaven?

I did not mean “saved by an exorcist”, I meant can an exorcist, tell whether someone is going to heaven, or not??? They cannot, which still leaves me puzzled as to why we are arguing about this. not.

Well, an exorcist is to expel a demon, not pronounce judgement whether one is going to heaven or not. Did you not say previously that only God knows, right? I think we may have jumbled our posts. (Sometimes, you do not use the quote function correctly, and it is hard to decipher…)

My definition of saved, is someone who has accepted Christ into their heart, and is going to heaven when they die.

This is a big subject, so another thread perhaps.

This verse speaks of Jesus love and protection for his sheep, is the same as the Father’s.

Yes, and giving the Christian over to Satan and his demons, does not sound as if no one can take them out of His hand.

Yes, but we have the free will to separate from him.

Let me ask you one question to ponder and consider starting a thread on the Bible: Why did St. Mark write his gospel?

I do not get what you are saying, why would Mark not have written his gospel???

I will leave it to you to ponder further.

The Bible says nothing about Oral Tradition, I am inclined to believe that this was created so man could add things to God’s Holy Word.

2Thes2: 15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

The word of God was handed down orally, then later some of it was put into writing. The Bible, the canon, is actually Sacred Tradition, because there was no table of contents, this was discerned by Catholic Bishops between AD 300 to AD 397 or so.

Here is another question for you, to demonstrate this: Where is the chapter and verse in the Bible where Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark? (Table of contents and titles are excluded, these were put by the publisher).

A Christian is someone who has accepted Christ as their Saviour, believes the Word of God, and is going to heaven when they die. You are born with a sin nature, you have to accept Christ as your Saviour to become a Christian.

Subject for another thread.

Where is the Biblical basis for this???
It seems to me that whenever something does not fit with the Bible, you claim that it is oral tradition, and also God’s Word. I read those sites, and got some of it, but it left me slightly confused, and I felt as if I had wasted the time in reading them. Could you please just explain it yourself???

Shortly, the gospel was spread through the oral teachings of the Apostles. Jesus did not write anything down nor did He command anybody to write something down. Later, some apostles, and some of the apostles’ successors (Paul, Luke, James, Jude, Mark) would write something down. What was written became the Scripture and what was not written is Sacred Tradition.

Another question for you: Which is the pillar and foundation of truth?

“the battle for the conversion of sinners”
and “they become the stakes in the battle”
(If I have made any mistakes, please correct me, this was made up in a hurry)

That is the constant battle with the devil, isn’t it? The conversion of sinners away from sin.

 

[Jon_Leveille]

I was speaking of being saved, by Christ, when you accept him into your heart.

There are several threads on this one. You can start one or search and read through them. This subject is often discussed here with protestants.

The fact remains that Peter was not divine, and that God never created the Roman Catholic Church, nor made him head over it.

On another note, if you got this from CARM, this would explain your views. Unless you are very anti-Catholic, which I hope you are not, I would suggest you re-consider why you are in that forum. There are other well meaning protestant forums.

Actually I had never heard of CARM. I am anti- anything that goes against God’s Holy Word, in this discussion however, I have begun to see that there are certain beliefs, of the CC, that no true Christian, could agree with.

You should watch it. The possessed boy is a Lutheran, a Christian, from a Christian family. This is a real story and was even shown on the Discovery Channel, where I first saw it.

Here is the link again: youtube.com/watch?v=dDgoNlOn-hk

And after watching it, answer “why did the Lutheran minister approach a Catholic priest for assistance?”
He felt that the Catholic priest, would be able to handle the situation better, than he would.
The truth is, that the Catholic church, has been much more involved in the subject of Demon Possession, than the other denominations, and has been for a while. There are many preachers, who have not studied the subject, or just think it is not true. The truth is that no one denomination has everything correct. Man has a sin nature, and is fallible, and no matter how many of them group together, and decide on something. We should trust God rather than men!!
Psalm 146:3, Jeremiah 17:5-7, 2 Samuel 22:31, Matthew 5:17-18, Matthew 24:11, Matthew 24:23-26, Mark 13:22

Why would you say such a thing? Catholics were the very first Christians, or do you disagree with this?

Another subject for another thread.

That is a very tricky question, in that catholic, has not always meant the same thing.
Catholic’s greek roots meant “according to the whole”, or “universal”, it was used when referring to the Church as a whole, today that word is used in referring to the Roman Catholic Church. So in a sense it was referring to the Church, as catholic, but it was not the same as the Roman Catholic Church.

Actually, you may not realize, but it is your interpretation, and it is influenced by what you have read elsewhere, what somebody (your pastor perhaps) has told you what those verses mean, by your upbringing, culture and a host of other influences. And this is your “tradition” and you may not realize it.

Actually, I have tried not to be prejudiced by what my pastor and others say, but always try to check it with the Bible. I got on a forum a year or two ago, and realized that something I had always regarded as true, was actually not correct, based on God’s Word. Ever since then, I have tried to check each and every one of my beliefs, using God’s Holy Word.

Are you just starting college?

You are welcome, and I find this beneficial too. I would suggest and recommend you read The Rite by Matt Baglio. It is probably in your college or public library.

God bless.

Yes, I am. I have not found it in my library system, but it might be in the school library, as they have a pretty large one.

May You Have a Blessed Day

 

[pablope]

QUOTE=Jon Leveille;8047945]

I was speaking of being saved, by Christ, when you accept him into your heart.

And when that “saved” person commits murder, rape, any crime, is he still 'saved"?

The fact remains that Peter was not divine, and that God never created the Roman Catholic Church, nor made him head over it.

And do you consider your pastor divine? From Rom 10:15 And how can people preach unless they are sent?

And who sent your pastor to preach?

If you want to clear the misinformation you have been handed down (unwittingly, you do not realize that this is your tradition), I suggest you start threads. Sadly, are carrying this misinformation.

Actually I had never heard of CARM. I am anti- anything that goes against God’s Holy Word, in this discussion however, I have begun to see that there are certain beliefs, of the CC, that no true Christian, could agree with.

As I stated, why don’t you start threads on this very subjects. Amd by what authority do you make such statement that some beliefs of the CC are not true? The same could be said of your denomination, isn’t it?

The CC wrote and compiled the Bible, it did not come out of the Bible. So why would the CC produce something and contradict what it put together?

He felt that the Catholic priest, would be able to handle the situation better, than he would.

And why did the Lutheran minister feel that a Catholic priest could handle the situation better?

Common, be honest now.

The truth is, that the Catholic church, has been much more involved in the subject of Demon Possession, than the other denominations, and has been for a while.

Why should it not be? It has been exorcising demons since Pentecost up to this very day. It continues to battle the devil because the CC is of divine origin.

There are many preachers, who have not studied the subject, or just think it is not true. The truth is that no one denomination has everything correct.

Actually, there is one, it is called the Catholic Church.

We should trust God rather than men!!

Yet, you trust your pastor and other men who told you lies about the Catholic Church.

That is a very tricky question, in that catholic, has not always meant the same thing.
Catholic’s greek roots meant “according to the whole”, or “universal”, it was used when referring to the Church as a whole, today that word is used in referring to the Roman Catholic Church. So in a sense it was referring to the Church, as catholic, but it was not the same as the Roman Catholic Church.

You are showing your misconception again. The Catholic Church was first called “The Way”…then sometime in AD100 or so, a Church father called it Catholic Church and has been so ever since. The “Roman” was added sometime in the 1500 or so as a derogatory definition by some protestants. The RCC is the Latin rite, there are 22 other rites that comprise the Catholic Church, all in communion with each other and the Pope.

Actually, I have tried not to be prejudiced by what my pastor and others say, but always try to check it with the Bible. I got on a forum a year or two ago, and realized that something I had always regarded as true, was actually not correct, based on God’s Word. Ever since then, I have tried to check each and every one of my beliefs, using God’s Holy Word.

You may not realize it, but your views, preconceptions, etc are the result of somebody’s tradition being imparted on you. You are a reflection of that tradition and is reflecting that tradition.

I would suggest that you study the CC further to debunk this misconceptions. If you have not, you can start with the Catechism of the CC, it contains all the teachings of the CC.

Here is an online source: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Yes, I am. I have not found it in my library system, but it might be in the school library, as they have a pretty large one.

May You Have a Blessed Day

Gob bless too.

 

[Jon_Leveille]

When??? Could you please post the verses, and explain how they give the Pope authority???
What exactly do you mean by “bind and lose”???

Correct, that is why the CC takes great pains to investigate and discern. That is why it takes years, not the snap of a finger. Who does it? It is still God, through the prayers of intercession of the Saint. And God grants it according to His will.

How can they tell the difference between a real miracle, and a clever fake?? Thousands of people, fell for Erik Weiz(Harry Houdini)'s illusions, many of them magicians themselves, who understood the tricks of the trade. Man is born with a sin nature, and is fallible, how do you know that those investigators were not fooled??

The Church. I am not that familiar with the history of it. I think the first site you had has a history of canonization also.

Wait, so if the Church, came up with canonization, and it was not instituted by God, then that means that there is a possibility of canonization being in error. The Church is made up of fallible humans, agreed?? Then those humans, created a way to tell if someone was saved, called Canonization, which is not sanctioned by God, and which seems to go against His Holy Word, and yet this was still implemented!!!

Correct. That is why it takes years to canonize, to ascertain that the candidate is in heaven, through the requirement of miracles, before the CC makes a pronouncement. Keep in mind that the CC has been doing this since pentecost.

Why do you think that God did not say anything about a way to see if someone was saved, and why do you think the Bible is against this???
Can you give me some examples from the Bible of when they first practiced this??
Cannabalism, has been around since at least the time of Elisha, does that make it right??? (2 Kings 6:25-30) Of course not!!

I think you should read a book about the subject from an actual exorcist. It explains the different levels of possession, what they are and what not. Again, I would recommend The Rite or a book by Fr. Gabriel Amorth-“An Exorcist tells his story”

The attack on those saints was to make them suffer, or to increase their suffering, so that they will stop from getting closer to God. I think until you understand this, you will keep disbelieving.

Mary crushes the serpent:mysticsofthechurch.com/2010/09/mary-crushes-serpent-virgin-marys-role.html

It was buried in another article.
I will try to find it. How come the Bible does not speak of this happening to those in the Bible who were very close to God??? (E.g. Job, Enoch, etc…)
Also I noticed on this site, and on other links, instances where people talked to demons, other than casting them out. Is this Biblical?? If so could you post some examples??
I do not think Jesus ever talked with demons!!! Here is a site about casting out demons, and this man says never to talk to the demons.

Maybe we are talking different definitions. What do you mean by “saved by an exorcist”? Do you mean saved from the demonic possession or “saved” meaning being in heaven?
Well, an exorcist is to expel a demon, not pronounce judgement whether one is going to heaven or not. Did you not say previously that only God knows, right? I think we may have jumbled our posts. (Sometimes, you do not use the quote function correctly, and it is hard to decipher…)

You kept putting posts about exorcists, into our conversation, and I just assumed that you were saying that they could tell if someone was saved. Because if you weren’t, it was irrelevant to the topic, but I think I see why you put them in, now.

This is a big subject, so another thread perhaps.

Ok, but I don’t see why this should be a problem.

This verse speaks of Jesus love and protection for his sheep, is the same as the Father’s.

Yes, and would a kind and loving God give his children over to demons. That totally goes against God’s Word, God is Love.

Yes, but we have the free will to separate from him.

So you are saying that you can lose your salvation???

I will leave it to you to ponder further.

Ok, but I still won’t get what you are trying to say.
(will continue in next post)

 

[Jon_Leveille]

Actually it does not say word “of mouth”, it merely says word, the “of mouth” was added in later translations. Even with the “of mouth”, it could still mean preaching. Also I do not think that they should have added the “of mouth”, because God says in Matthew 5:18 “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” The Bible does not directly say anything, about Oral Tradition, being passed down, and man tends to misconstrue things, as he passes them along by word of mouth. Like in the game “Telephone”, where one person at one end of a circle, whispers a word, and you see how much it has changed, when it gets to the end.

Here is another question for you, to demonstrate this: Where is the chapter and verse in the Bible where Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark? (Table of contents and titles are excluded, these were put by the publisher).

There is none, it was discovered using history and, yes, word of mouth. I see your point, but there is one difference, and that is that Mark, is confirmed by many sources, and the word of mouth, that was used to find the author of the book of Mark, were just things people had said throughout history, not an actual history passed down from Jesus.

Subject for another thread.

Yes.

Shortly, the gospel was spread through the oral teachings of the Apostles. Jesus did not write anything down nor did He command anybody to write something down. Later, some apostles, and some of the apostles’ successors (Paul, Luke, James, Jude, Mark) would write something down. What was written became the Scripture and what was not written is Sacred Tradition.

How do you know that Jesus did not tell the disciples to write anything down???
I thought you said that just because something is not in the Bible does not mean it didn’t happen!! Why wouldn’t they have written everything down??? How come the Bible never speaks of them writing down half, and orally passing down the other half.

Another question for you: Which is the pillar and foundation of truth?

1 Timothy 3:15 “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” Are you saying that this is speaking of the Roman Catholic Church???

That is the constant battle with the devil, isn’t it? The conversion of sinners away from sin.

That doesn’t make any sense, so whenever a saint defeated a demon, people got saved??? That is what you are saying!!!
May You Have a Blessed Day!!

[/QUOTE]

 

[Jon_Leveille]

QUOTE=Jon Leveille;8047945]

Yes, here are some sites that explain it very well. It doesn’t matter where they are from, just read them with an open mind.
We become God’s children, when we are saved, if you try to lose your salvation, then I would be wondering whether you were actually saved in the first place, no true Christian would want to lose their salvation.
dyeager.org/post/2008/01/can-you-lose-your-salvation
carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/can-believer-lose-his-salvation
commconn.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/seven-reasons-you-cant-lose-your-salvation/
A True Christian, would not want to do any of those things, but yes, they would still be saved. When you were a child, and you did something wrong, did your parents automatically kick you out of the family, no they did not, because they loved you.
God does not see murder and rape, as extreme sins, he hates all sin equally, so if you stole a candy bar, God hated that as much as if you shot the store owner. All sins are equal to God.

And do you consider your pastor divine? From Rom 10:15 And how can people preach unless they are sent?
And who sent your pastor to preach?
If you want to clear the misinformation you have been handed down (unwittingly, you do not realize that this is your tradition), I suggest you start threads. Sadly, are carrying this misinformation.

No, I do not. You however, stated that the Roman Catholic Church was of Divine origin, and I was trying to clarify that it was not. God, our pastor felt God calling him to the ministry, ad he obeyed. I already told you that I use the Bible, for my sources, so either you think that I am lying, or you believe that the Bible is full of misinformation. I do realize that this has been taught to me since I was little, and that I have presuppositions about my beliefs, but I have tried to check all of my beliefs with the Bible, and have not found one foundational belief to be wrong. You are also starting with presuppositions.

As I stated, why don’t you start threads on this very subjects. Amd by what authority do you make such statement that some beliefs of the CC are not true? The same could be said of your denomination, isn’t it?

The CC wrote and compiled the Bible, it did not come out of the Bible. So why would the CC produce something and contradict what it put together?

By the authority of the Bible, God’s infallible Holy Word!! No, because I do not have a denomination, I am Christian!! Every denomination, has beliefs that are not in accordance with scripture, and that is why I do not label myself one, or another. I have found however that the CC has the most foundational errors that I have seen.
(continued in next post)

[/QUOTE]

 

[Jon_Leveille]

And why did the Lutheran minister feel that a Catholic priest could handle the situation better?

 

[Jon_Leveille]

Here is an article of interest:

catholicnewsagency.com/news/romes-exorcist-finding-bl.-john-paul-ii-effective-against-satan/

Excerpt:

[SIGN]As for the extraordinary powers used by Satan, Fr. Amorth explained it as how the Devil acts when he focuses his attention more specifically on a person. He categorized the expression of that attention into four types: diabolical possession; diabolical vexation like in the case of Padre Pio, who was beaten by the Devil; obsessions which are able to lead a person to desperation and infestation, and when the Devil occupies a space, an animal or even an object.”

Not surprisingly, ‘Jesus Christ’ is the name Fr. Amorth most often calls upon to expel demons. But he also turns to saintly men and women for their heavenly assistance. Interestingly, he said that in recent years one man – Blessed Pope John Paul II – has proved to be a particularly powerful intercessor.

“I have asked the demon more than once, ‘Why are you so scared of John Paul II and I have had two different responses, both interesting. One, ‘because he disrupted my plans.’ And, I think that he is referring to the fall of communism in Russia and Eastern Europe. The collapse of communism.”

“Another response that he gave me, ‘because he pulled so many young people from my hands.’ There are so many young people who, thanks to John Paul II, were converted. Perhaps some were already Christian but not practicing, but then with John Paul II they came back to the practice. ‘He pulled so many young people out of my hands.’” [/SIGN]

I do not believe that calling on any other name than God’s, will cast a demon out, and further more, Jesus never talked to the demons which He cast out, he simply commanded them out in God’s name, as do many exorcists now.
May God Bless Your Day

 

[Jon_Leveille]

He asked Legion’s name only, and there are many reasons why he could have done that, he does not ask Demons, why they hate a certain person, and hold conversations with them.
I did not say that Catholics cease to call upon God, but calling upon a dead person to cast out a demon, seems non-biblical.
Matthew 7:22"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

 

[pablope]

When??? Could you please post the verses, and explain how they give the Pope authority???
What exactly do you mean by “bind and lose”???

Matt 16:
18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock** I will build my church, and the gates of hell[c] shall not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[d] in heaven."

This is further explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the link which I provided in another post.

How can they tell the difference between a real miracle, and a clever fake?? Thousands of people, fell for Erik Weiz(Harry Houdini)'s illusions, many of them magicians themselves, who understood the tricks of the trade. Man is born with a sin nature, and is fallible, how do you know that those investigators were not fooled??

**

For every miracle authenticated, there are countless other claims that are investigated and discounted. So the Church knows and has experience to discern what is divine and what is not. Keep in mind, the CC has been doing this since Pentecost.

Wait, so if the Church, came up with canonization, and it was not instituted by God, then that means that there is a possibility of canonization being in error.

No. The CC will not canonize unless there is absolute certainty.

The Church is made up of fallible humans, agreed?? Then those humans, created a way to tell if someone was saved, called Canonization, which is not sanctioned by God, and which seems to go against His Holy Word, and yet this was still implemented!!!

Everyone is human. But, the Apostles and their successors, when exercising their task, were gifted with the protection of the Holy Spirit to not fall in error. Remember, Christ promised the HS to be with the Church so the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Why do you think that God did not say anything about a way to see if someone was saved, and why do you think the Bible is against this???

Sorry, I do not understand what you are asking here.

Can you give me some examples from the Bible of when they first practiced this??

The first martyr, St. Stephen in Acts. This is mostly part of the History of the CC.

Cannabalism, has been around since at least the time of Elisha, does that make it right??? (2 Kings 6:25-30) Of course not!

!

What does this have to do with the topic of the thread?

I will try to find it. How come the Bible does not speak of this happening to those in the Bible who were very close to God??? (E.g. Job, Enoch, etc…)

Because you are making the Bible for what it was not intended to be. Example, do you believe in the Trinity? If yes, where is that in the Bible? If not, why do you believe in it?

And who told you about the Trinity?

Also I noticed on this site, and on other links, instances where people talked to demons, other than casting them out. Is this Biblical?? If so could you post some examples??
I do not think Jesus ever talked with demons!!! Here is a site about casting out demons, and this man says never to talk to the demons.

Once you read The Rite, you will know. To defeat the demon, the exorcist needs to get him to say his or reveal the demon’s name. Once he says his name, the demon can be defeated. So, how will you get the demon to say his name?

You kept putting posts about exorcists, into our conversation, and I just assumed that you were saying that they could tell if someone was saved. Because if you weren’t, it was irrelevant to the topic, but I think I see why you put them in, now.

I thought you had not answered it, that is why I reposted. And I wanted to clear up our definitions, so that we are on the same page.

Yes, and would a kind and loving God give his children over to demons. That totally goes against God’s Word, God is Love.

I think you are again misunderstanding. God does not give His children over to demons. He lets or permits the attack for His greater purpose. I think once you read further, you will come to understand it.

So you are saying that you can lose your salvation???

Yes. You can refer to the Cathecism.

But I will leave you with some verses to ponder:

Heb 10:

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries

36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

V36 is the condition-the need to persevere and only when you do the will of God. Do you think continuing to sin is the will of God?

 

[pablope]

Well, it still speaks of oral teaching. Epistle in the latter part is the written form. So it speaks both of oral and written.

Even with the “of mouth”, it could still mean preaching.

Well, what do you think the Apostles were doing except preaching? And everything they preached was not written down.

Also I do not think that they should have added the “of mouth”,

That is in the translations and the translations convey what was intended by the verse.

The Bible does not directly say anything, about Oral Tradition, being passed down,

You are thinking 21st century. How do you think the original stories were handed down, especially the OT? By word of mouth. Then at the invention of papyrus, these were put down in writing. Again, let us go back to the Gospel of Mark? Why did he write it? Where did he get his material?

and man tends to misconstrue things, as he passes them along by word of mouth.

The Bible, the original stories, were handed down by word of mouth. So, now, why do you believe the Bible?

I think you should start a thread on this, if you wish to explore further. There are biblical scholars on this website and who could respond better than I can.

There is none, it was discovered using history and, yes, word of mouth. I see your point, but there is one difference, and that is that Mark, is confirmed by many sources, and the word of mouth, that was used to find the author of the book of Mark, were just things people had said throughout history, not an actual history passed down from Jesus.

Good, now you are getting somewhere.

And who are those sources? And why do you believe those sources? And how do you know it was the real St. Mark, and not just anybody named Mark from the street?

Someone had to authoritatively tell you, right? And it had to be in infallible source, right, otherwise, why believe it that it is the word of God?

How do you know that Jesus did not tell the disciples to write anything down???

If Jesus had intended anything to be written down, this would have been an important instruction and any of the Apostles would have written or handed this instruction down orally.

Why wouldn’t they have written everything down??? How come the Bible never speaks of them writing down half, and orally passing down the other half.

It is about time you investigate the origin of the Bible. I will leave you with a question: What is the reason the Bible was compiled, initially?

1 Timothy 3:15 “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” Are you saying that this is speaking of the Roman Catholic Church???

Which church was in existence when this was written? Which Church did St. Paul belong to? The Catholic Church.

And it is not the Bible, isn’t it? The source of truth is the Church.

And it does not say churches, either. There could only be one church, otherwise, there will be confusion. Look at the 33000 denoms of the protestants, which one of them is the true church?

And these are the marks of the true church: One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic.

That doesn’t make any sense, so whenever a saint defeated a demon, people got saved??? That is what you are saying!!!
May You Have a Blessed Day!!

See, you are saying the word “saved” again, that is why I got confused. Have you read the article “Mary crushes the serpent”? Hopefully, it will make it clear for you.

It is good that you are investigating and have an inquisitive mind. My suggestion is for you to start threads on subjects you feel you need answers. There are more knowledgeable catholics here than me. I just gave you snippets.

God bless.

 

[pablope]

QUOTE=Jon Leveille;8047945]

carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/can-believer-lose-his-salvation
commconn.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/seven-reasons-you-cant-lose-your-salvation/

Thanks, Jon. I already know what protestants believe, and there are different beliefs that it can get confusing.

I will just recap the CC teaching-one can lose one’s salvation by sinning and other grave acts, but can be reconciled back to Christ by the sacrament of Confession.

A True Christian, would not want to do any of those things, but yes, they would still be saved.

And how would they be saved back?

When you were a child, and you did something wrong, did your parents automatically kick you out of the family, no they did not, because they loved you.

Yes, but they made sure they corrected you, right? They did not let you do the same thing over and over again.

No, I do not. You however, stated that the Roman Catholic Church was of Divine origin, and I was trying to clarify that it was not.

I will leave with you with something to investigate: It is only the CC that can be traced to the Apostles (St. Peter) and from Peter to Jesus.

All other protestant denoms can only be traced to Martin Luther and the Reformation, and nothing beyond that.

God, our pastor felt God calling him to the ministry, ad he obeyed.

Look at the example of St. Paul: from acts 13:

Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Symeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who was a close friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

2
While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
3
Then, completing their fasting and prayer,** they laid hands on them and sent them off.**

St. Paul was ordained and laid hands on, which is the Biblical way of ordination, before he went on his first missionary journey.

How do you know it was the HS that called your pastor?

I already told you that I use the Bible, for my sources, so either you think that I am lying, or you believe that the Bible is full of misinformation.

I do not think you are lying. You interpreting the Bible from what you were taught. The question for you, is this in accordance with what the Apostles taught?

In the CC, we read and interpret the Bible through the lens of the Sacred Tradition of the Apostles.

I do realize that this has been taught to me since I was little, and that I have presuppositions about my beliefs, but I have tried to check all of my beliefs with the Bible, and have not found one foundational belief to be wrong. You are also starting with presuppositions.

And in the previous post, what is the pillar and ground of truth? The Bible is subject to different interpretation, so where do you go to for the correct one? for the proper understanding in accordance with that taught by the Apostles?

It is also in the bible that for disputes, it is stated to take them to the Church, not the Bible.

By the authority of the Bible, God’s infallible Holy Word!! No, because I do not have a denomination, I am Christian!! Every denomination, has beliefs that are not in accordance with scripture, and that is why I do not label myself one, or another. I have found however that the CC has the most foundational errors that I have seen.
(continued in next post)

And how is the Bible able to exercise that authority? You exercise it through your interpretations. And how do I know your interpretations are correct?

Actually, you denomination is that you are “non-denom” though you may fail to realize it.

Actually, if you are up to it, why don’t you start threads on what you think are the foundational errors of the CC, so that this will be cleared for you.

 

[pablope]

Well, have you actually watched the video. Part 4 will surprise you.

No only studying, but knew how do deal with possession having done so since Pentecost.

There, you said it again!! You stated that the Catholic Church is of divine origin, we already clarified, that Peter was not divine. Christ never clearly commissioned the CC, in the Bible. He made some vague statements, that are claimed as being references to the CC, but He never said outright, that He was commissioning a church, with Peter at its head. Also as I said earlier, people have been practicing cannibalism, since the time of Elijah, that does not mean that they are correct in doing so!!

Look at my previous post. Subject for another thread.

Can you prove that all of these beliefs that you hold, that go against God’s Word, are true!!

Yes. Catholics wrote the Bible, and it was written for Catholics.

What lies, have you ever been to my church???

Sorry, bad choice of words. I did not mean your particular church. There have anti-catholic information being spread around and continues to this day. Ever heard of jack Chick comics?

I have studied the subject, from the Bible, and have come to the belief, using the Bible, that the CC is non-biblical. Actually our pastor, has never once taught us about the CC, which he should have.

Once you study this further, you will come to know that the CC is Biblical, and is divine in origin. Here is something for you to check:

davidmacd.com/catholic/catholic_mass_bible_references_full_text.htm

Even if the Church, in the Bible, did become the CC, which it is my belief that it did not, then they were wrong in doing so, because they twisted the Bible, to do so.

It is not the Bible that is twisting, it is in how you interpret it that is twisting and causing your way of thinking.

Many good Catholics, realized the error of the CC, and tried to reform it, but by that time it was too late, and many of them died as martyrs. The CC did not want anyone to even try to go against them, so they made it almost a death penalty, to think differently than them, that type of thinking was what birthed the Inquisition!!

Where did you get this material? This is another of the misinformation being spread about the CC.

I do realize it, and I have tried to check each of my preconceptions, with the Bible. I find however that most of those preconceptions, are true. You also start with preconceptions, which makes it hard for you to believe anything I say, as it goes against them.
I am in the process of reading, but so far I see no biblical reasons for those beliefs.
I will keep reading, and see if there are some later on.
May God Bless You too!!

Please do so. Again, start with the Catechism, it contains Biblical references and the writings of the Early Church fathers.

 

[Jon_Leveille]

If you are casting out a demon, in the name of God, it does not matter who you are, only whose name you are casting the demon out in. He is dead on this earth, and can no more come back than you and I can visit heaven. Why call upon him in the first place if he is just going to call upon God for you, why not just call upon God yourself.

The latter comments in your post are edging into dubious territory and you should bear in mind that implicit disrespect of clergy from ANY Church is not allow in this manner here.

I was not trying to disrespect him, but was merely pointing out, that the method he was using, does not seem Biblical.

When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won’t torture me!” For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you evil spirit!”

Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

Where does it say that Jesus started having a conversation, he merely asked their name, and it says he suffered them to go into the pigs. When it speaks of the disciples casting out demons, in the Bible, it says nothing about them calling upon saints in heaven to intercede between them and God. I could say more, but as I have been warned, someone might think that I was implying disrespect, and ban me, as you have threatened, so I will leave it at that.
May You All Have A Blessed Day!!

 

[Dorothy]

<<Where does it say that Jesus started having a conversation, he merely asked their name, and it says he suffered them to go into the pigs. When it speaks of the disciples casting out demons, in the Bible, it says nothing about them calling upon saints in heaven to intercede between them and God. I could say more, but as I have been warned, someone might think that I was implying disrespect, and ban me, as you have threatened, so I will leave it at that.
May You All Have A Blessed Day!! >>

I would just like to interject that the reason a saint can be called up to intercede in the casting out of a demon is to glorify God in that He sanctified that person. The grace comes from the Lord to sanctify a person, and that person (the saint) had to cooperate with the grace of God.