Demonic possession and sins?

[promethius95945]

I think perhaps it is both. Some possession are the result of mortal sin. Some when you look at them are so random that they seem to defy explanation. Some others happen when one is not in a state of mortal sin or have done nothing to “deserve” or “merit” the possession as a result of their actions or non-actions.

That is absolutely incorrect. Although an explicit action is not required to allow a demon to possess a victim, there is always some form of submission of the will. Being possessed is, in a strange way, voluntary. It is also TOTALLY incompatible with a state of saving grace. Demons are incapable of striking of from a state of grace without our consent (even if we don’t realize we are giving that consent).

HOWEVER, a person in a state of grace may have a demon obsessed with them or oppressing them in an attempt to get the will to crack and let them in. Padre Pio was routinely physically attacked by demons, despite the fact that he was not possessed at all.

I would think the mortal sins that directly seek recourse outside of God does open you up for possession, ie Divination, Witchcraft, Satanism, those types of things. Anytime you are invoking things other than God, that really throws open the door.

God bless.

In this way you are largely correct: WHAT sins will invite a demon in for possession are hard to predict. A person might be a murderer and thief and yet never be possessed. Another might be a great person, who plays with a oujii board and tarot cards and attracts attention from a demon in the process. Another is a “witch” and spends all their time practicing the occult, again without attracting attention of a demon.

We simply don’t know, although a strong pattern indicates that invitation to the supernatural is an influencing factor, as is heresy, because, and this is personal opinion, these sins involve direct submission of the will to error and the unGodly. In other words, if I rob a bank, I know it is wrong, and I lose my state of grace, but I still haven’t rejected truth or supplanted God’s role in my life. If I become a heretic, however, I reject willfully truth and God, thus opening myself to counterfits of God in the process…

 

[MtnDwellar]

That is absolutely incorrect. Although an explicit action is not required to allow a demon to possess a victim, there is always some form of submission of the will. Being possessed is, in a strange way, voluntary. It is also TOTALLY incompatible with a state of saving grace. Demons are incapable of striking of from a state of grace without our consent (even if we don’t realize we are giving that consent).

I don’t understand this paragraph. I can understand submission by the will, but I do not understand submission of the will. Also, if one does not realize he is giving consent, how does he give it?

I am not sure that a state of grace immunizes a person from possession. Isn’t the state of grace referring to the soul? The demon possesses the physical body.

Father Amorth has some thoughts regarding the will…
“No matter what the origins, possession does not deprive us of freedom except during times of acute crisis, when we are not responsible for our words and actions. Freedom of the will, nevertheless, remains. We are still free to commit good or evil actions, to sanctify ourselves or to damn ourselves.”

Thanks.

 

[Little_One0307]

That is absolutely incorrect. Although an explicit action is not required to allow a demon to possess a victim, there is always some form of submission of the will. Being possessed is, in a strange way, voluntary. It is also TOTALLY incompatible with a state of saving grace. Demons are incapable of striking of from a state of grace without our consent (even if we don’t realize we are giving that consent).QUOTE]

Promethius95945,

There are cases that are called perfect possession. You cannot tell me those people will or submit in any way for the perfect possession to continue.

Demons can strike against people in a state of grace. They do it all the time. Else, why all the temptation, oppression, and obsession. Sometimes the people who struggle the most are the ones who are in a state of grace.

What of the people in the New Testamanet that were healed of demons? I am going to have to go and pull sources tomorrow when I can think. I remember there being a young boy who would throw himself in the fire and try to drown himself. I don’t think he was in a state of mortal sin.

The poster below me points out a very good point. One can be possesssed and in a state of grace. The demon possesses the body and not the soul. It is possible that one possessed can die in a state of grace and go to heaven.

Not all possessed people consent to their possession.

God bless.

 

[FCEGM]

That is absolutely incorrect. Although an explicit action is not required to allow a demon to possess a victim, there is always some form of submission of the will. Being possessed is, in a strange way, voluntary. It is also TOTALLY incompatible with a state of saving grace. Demons are incapable of striking of from a state of grace without our consent (even if we don’t realize we are giving that consent). . . QUOTE]

In their great work on spiritual theology, The Theology of Christian Perfection, Fr. Antonio Royo, O.P. and Fr. Jordan Aumann, O.P. make clear that while some cases of possession do come about when the subject has asked for this in order to enter into a pact with the devil, it is not true in all cases. Possession can take place because God has permitted (and any possession is always at God’s permission) this as a punishment in order to inspire a great hatred of sin, or, as in the case of some Saints, to bring about a greater purity of soul. Thus a soul may still be in the state of grace while being possessed. Fathers Royo and Aumann include this account of a saintly priest who in 1623 became possessed for twelve years after he exorcised the Ursulines of Loudun, France. From the priest’s own account:

“‘I cannot say what happens to me during this time nor how that spirit united to my soul without depriving me of consciousness or of liberty. He is there as another I, and it then seems that I have two souls, one of which, deprived of the use of the bodily organs and remaning as it were at a distance, watches what the other one does. The two spirits struggle on the same field of battle, which is the body. . . .In one and the same instance I experience a great peace under the approbation of God, and I do not in any way consent to the feeling of repulsion which moves me, on the other hand, to separate myself from God, to the great surprise of those who watch me. I am at the same time filled with happiness and overwhelmed with a sorrow which is expressed in complaints and groans, according to the caprice of the devils,’ Fr. Surin, S.J.”, quoted in The Theology of Christian Perfection

 

[Little_One0307]

Promethius95945,

From the Romanum Rituale - Rite of Exorcism of the Possessed.

This is from the opening instructions before the Ritual.

1. The subject, if in good mental and physical health, should be exhorted to implore God’s help, to fast, and TO FORTIFY HIMSELF BY FREQUENT RECEPTION OF PENANCE AND HOLY COMMUNION, at the discretion of the priest. And in the course of the exorcism he should be fully recollected, with his intentions fixed on God, Whom he should entreat with firm faith and in all humility. And if he is all the more grievously tormented, he ought to bear this patiently, never doubting the divine assistance.

----- Now why would this instruct a possessed person to take Holy Communion, when one can ONLY take Holy Communion in a state of Grace? And assuming that the possessed do go to Confession and confess their sins and make a good sacramental Confession, they are now in a state of grace, but they are still possesed.

I am researching more on this. I believe that there were saints in the history of the Church that were possessed. And I am looking up some more documents. I will post them as I come across them.

Thanks to you, I am re-reading some great books on this subject. Thank you.

God Bless.

 

[fakename]

you know, I was wondering one more thing. If mortal sins increase the probability of demonic attack, then shouldn’t people be afraid all the time since one mortal sin = demons are coming closer?

the question then is, in light of the connection b/t mortal sins and the devil, how scared should we be about mortal sins/is every mortal sin an accent (however tacit) of the demonic possession, etc? If it mortal sin(s) is/are tacit accent, then shouldn’t we be even more fearful?

 

[hunter123]

Let me ask you a question. If you went to your dad, and told him that you hated him and never wanted to see him again ever, what would he do? He would be hurt, yes, and for a time even try to regain the relationship. But after his years of efforts to rekindle a relationship with you, you still keep sending him away. Finally, he says, ok, this is what you want. You don’t want a relationship with me. I will respect your wishes, and I will not be near you again.
This is not a perfect analogy, but in a way, this is how it is with us and God. He gives us chance after chance, but if we keep sending Him away, that we want nothing to do with Him, he will honor our decision. And that is what Hell is. The absence of God. I think at that point the flames or anything else that may or may not be there will be inconsequential. What makes Hell, Hell, is the absolute absence of God that was a deliberate choice of whoever is there.

As for the OP - it is not healthy to indulge in a constant preoccupation with the occult. Not to say that we should bury our heads in the sand, figuratively speaking, but I have read many of your other threads, and it is a little concerning. The occult is a lot more dangerous than, sadly, many Christians realize. The best thing is to immerse yourself in good solid Catholic and Biblical teachings and books. If you do decide to pursue study of Christian Demonology as you call it, may I suggest consulting with a knowledgeable priest to oversee your study and to assist you in prayer and act as your “safety line” lest you stray too far - or to decide if such study is even appropriate or not for you at this point in your spiritual journey.

This seems like a water down version IMO. If we get back to the the traditional beliefs of the pains of Hell as alluded to in various marian messages and throughout the history of the church your analogy seems weak indeed. Unless of course we are to reject those old teachings of hell? How can we be sure what to reject and what to accept?

A better analogy might be- a person told his father he hated him and never wanted to see him, does that give the father the right to douse his son with gasoline and burn him/or kill him?
Besides the fact that once the son realizes the error of his ways, as I would assume a person being judged by God would, should the father still say too late son, you will suffer forever?
Even with this, is not God supposed to be more forgiving than mere mortals? And lets not forget, that the historical church and most hardliners today believe you do not have to “hate” god to earn hell, just merely be a humanist and reject the Catholic church, or be a kabbalist, communist, or Woody Allen LOL.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .A better analogy might be- a person told his father he hated him and never wanted to see him, does that give the father the right to douse his son with gasoline and burn him/or kill him?
Besides the fact that once the son realizes the error of his ways, as I would assume a person being judged by God would, should the father still say too late son, you will suffer forever? .

What do you think being in the Presence of God Who Is Infinite Love would be like without any love in your own soul?

It is God’s Nature to be love. His love for the damned is experienced as fire; i.e., there is nothing of those spirits of the damned that can respond to love and so God’s overwhelming love must necessarily be experienced as eternal fire and torment. Perhaps another way to express this is to consider Scripture’s words that “our God is a consuming fire” - in order to survive in and find joy and salvation in that fire one has to himself become one with the fire of Divine Love - this the damned cannot do because they have no desire to love God.

Bl. John Paul II regarding Hell:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Hell

 

[Little_One0307]

you know, I was wondering one more thing. If mortal sins increase the probability of demonic attack, then shouldn’t people be afraid all the time since one mortal sin = demons are coming closer?

the question then is, in light of the connection b/t mortal sins and the devil, how scared should we be about mortal sins/is every mortal sin an accent (however tacit) of the demonic possession, etc? If it mortal sin(s) is/are tacit accent, then shouldn’t we be even more fearful?

Fakename,

I think that we should be worried about the effects of mortal sin more than demonic possession. We fall out of a state of grace when we sin and lose God’s abiding presence in us. To me, that is infinitely much worse than demonic possession. Stacking the two up on each other is even more worse.

One should frequent Confession when one falls into mortal sin and even when one is not in mortal sin.

We should be fearful of the Presence of God leaving us when we sin.

Be at peace. Don’t worry about demonic possession, instead worry about living without God’s grace.

God bless.

 

[hunter123]

What do you think being in the Presence of God Who Is Infinite Love would be like without any love in your own soul?

It is God’s Nature to be love. His love for the damned is experienced as fire; i.e., there is nothing of those spirits of the damned that can respond to love and so God’s overwhelming love must necessarily be experienced as eternal fire and torment. Perhaps another way to express this is to consider Scripture’s words that “our God is a consuming fire” - in order to survive in and find joy and salvation in that fire one has to himself become one with the fire of Divine Love - this the damned cannot do because they have no desire to love God.

Bl. John Paul II regarding Hell:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Hell

So basically, If I am not Catholic, or God forbid an atheist I have no love in my heart? What gives you the right to make that leap?

 

[hunter123]

Do you really believe in a God that shows his love for the damned through fire?

 

[Little_One0307]

Do you really believe in a God that shows his love for the damned through fire?

Yes. I am thankful for an Almighty God who respects our free will in the end. And if we do not want to choose him or spurn him, then Praise His Holy name that he respects us in the end and allows us to choose where to be for all eternity.

That is love. Love is opening your hand and allowing what is in your hand to remain by its own choice. What use is a forced love? God will never force Himself on us, and it would be contrary to His love if he did not honor our wishes and let us go where we wish to be sent for all eternity.

The Love of God has provided for the Sacraments [Sacrament of Reconcilliation and Eucharist, as well as the other 5] to help us in our journey.

God bless.

 

[hunter123]

Yes. I am thankful for an Almighty God who respects our free will in the end. And if we do not want to choose him or spurn him, then Praise His Holy name that he respects us in the end and allows us to choose where to be for all eternity.

That is love. Love is opening your hand and allowing what is in your hand to remain by its own choice. What use is a forced love? God will never force Himself on us, and it would be contrary to His love if he did not honor our wishes and let us go where we wish to be sent for all eternity.

The Love of God has provided for the Sacraments [Sacrament of Reconcilliation and Eucharist, as well as the other 5] to help us in our journey.

God bless.

That me be love in your book, but not mine. If I choose to spurn anyone, I should not have to risk infinite punishment for doing so. And I would never have the audacity to claim the One who created this system as Loving or Just.

I find it really pretentious of you for trying to “teach me” what love is. I respect your beliefs, but do not agree with them. Do not try and tell me what love is. At least qualify your statement with “In my opinion”.

I am merely pointing out that 'Loving" in the modern sense of the word does not reflect the system created by the Catholic view of God which basically says, Believe in me, do as I say, or you will “chose” everlasting punishment. Any way you sugar coat it, thats what it basically teaches.

 

[FCEGM]

So basically, If I am not Catholic, or God forbid an atheist I have no love in my heart? What gives you the right to make that leap?

Where did I limit the ability to love to Catholics?

 

[FCEGM]

Do you really believe in a God that shows his love for the damned through fire?

God Is Who He Is; He doesn’t “show love” He IS Love. When a soul is so turned against Him (against He Who is Love), how can that soul experience Him (since He sustains their existence) in any way other than torment because of the soul having no reciprocal divine fire (which transforms the soul into an image of Christ) because of its denial of that Love?

 

[catholictiger]

Some people say that the devil can possess you for having too many mortal sins. But also people say that there is no obvious cause for possessions and they seem to be random. So which is it, or is it that mortal sins are necessary but not sufficient conditions for possession?

Can different types of mortal sins dispose you more towards possession?

just curious -not trying to get in contact with the devil.

I know i’m alittle late to the thread but I heard from a exorcism expert or something. that if you regularly partake in the sacraments of the Church, you can’t be touched by demons.

I’m sure if you go to mass once a week and receive the Eucharist

if you go to Confession at-least yearly hopefully alot more

you won’t be possessed by demons.

I think Demons can still mess with you I think they do by trying to influence our thought, but this temptation this interaction is really easy to push aside, a simple I need you Christ will shoe them away.

For a demon to actually take control of your body. You must I think not be invovled in the Church meaning you are not receiving the sacraments. You are probably in a life of mortal sin, probably where you commit one daily. You are also probably open to dark spirits in some way.

but I’m pretty sure demons don’t just quickly take over your body. Its not like one day you are a good faithful christian and the next day your possessed by 5 demons or something. No its a long process demons slowly take over your body.

but again remember this if you are a good faithful Catholic and you activily participate in the sacraments, many times a year, you are at little to no risk of being possesed by Demons. the sacraments I guess you could say build a force field around your body and soul, that protects you from demons.

 

[hunter123]

He doesnt show love, 'He is Love"…symantics. If Hitler said-"I am love. By doing my will you will feel my love. But if you dont follow my rules, you will choose eternal torment. Is he really love? And who said anything about “a soul so turned against him”. What about a happy agnostic who helps his fellow man? This person rejects Catholicism, does not live his life through religion. Did this person choose eternal torment by thinking differently? Do you believe that only a religious catholic knows love?

 

[OscarsMama]

OP: Regardless of what you study or learn about, please stay connected to the Catholic faith. Please continue to go to church each week. Please stay on CAF (since you are already here). Please maintain contact with a priest.

Satan is very strong and he works in very small ways. He is very suggestive and, I believe, doesn’t PULL somebody away from God, but gently calls them under the disguise of knowledge (hense the tree in the garden).

Anyway, I completely understand your desire and interest to know more. And to learn about the “dark side of things.” I have many of the same interests. But please remember to keep a very strong life-line open.

 

[Little_One0307]

That me be love in your book, but not mine. If I choose to spurn anyone, I should not have to risk infinite punishment for doing so. And I would never have the audacity to claim the One who created this system as Loving or Just.

I find it really pretentious of you for trying to “teach me” what love is. I respect your beliefs, but do not agree with them. Do not try and tell me what love is. At least qualify your statement with “In my opinion”.

I am merely pointing out that 'Loving" in the modern sense of the word does not reflect the system created by the Catholic view of God which basically says, Believe in me, do as I say, or you will “chose” everlasting punishment. Any way you sugar coat it, thats what it basically teaches.

Hunter,

Peace be with you. Could you please share with me your definition of love and source it? What do you mean by loving in the modern sense? I am trying to understand where you are coming from.

Thank you.

---

First of all I was not teaching you about what love is. This “opinion” that you think I am promulgating is also what the God has revealed through Sacred Scripture, Sacred Traditions, and the Holy Magesterium of the Catholic Church.

1 Corinthians 13 - refer to that chapter for a definition of Love. Many others have written about love.

I in good conscience cannot say that it is my opinion since it is supported and taught by the Church.

---

A scenario if you were the king of a vast kingdom and you loved ALL of your subjects dearly and one or more of your subjects not only refused to return your love but also attempted to turn others away from you, could you allow them to remain in your court? They cannot remain in the court, yet this does not stop you loving them or wanting them to return in repentance. Yet, in God’s case to be outside of His Court, namely being outside of His love, His Light, His grace, equals outer darkness, in a word namely Hell ie. eternal separation from Him becuase of one’s personal unwavering rejection of the One WHO IS love.

God never stops loving those whom he created.

God bless.

 

[hunter123]

Hunter,

Peace be with you. Could you please share with me your definition of love and source it? What do you mean by loving in the modern sense? I am trying to understand where you are coming from.

Thank you.

---

First of all I was not teaching you about what love is. This “opinion” that you think I am promulgating is also what the God has revealed through Sacred Scripture, Sacred Traditions, and the Holy Magesterium of the Catholic Church.

1 Corinthians 13 - refer to that chapter for a definition of Love. Many others have written about love.

I in good conscience cannot say that it is my opinion since it is supported and taught by the Church.

---

A scenario if you were the king of a vast kingdom and you loved ALL of your subjects dearly and one or more of your subjects not only refused to return your love but also attempted to turn others away from you, could you allow them to remain in your court? They cannot remain in the court, yet this does not stop you loving them or wanting them to return in repentance. Yet, in God’s case to be outside of His Court, namely being outside of His love, His Light, His grace, equals outer darkness, in a word namely Hell ie. eternal separation from Him becuase of one’s personal unwavering rejection of the One WHO IS love.

God never stops loving those whom he created.

God bless.

I am asking you to think rationally. Without the magesterium of the church. If someone tell you he loves you but that if you do not acknowldedge his love he will eternally punish you, is that justice?

I dont think its that hard to figure out where I am coming from. According to reasoning a finite number of sins should be punished with a finite punishment, not an infinite one. The fact that eternal damnation seems reasonable to you seems a bit more troubling to me.

I respect your beliefs, but really question the idea that you do not see my point. My idea of love is like that of a parent who loves their child unconditionally. Who may need to punish that child at times, but would never consider punishing them forever.