Dems Say It's Time for GOP to Unite, End Shutdown

[99th_Monkey]

Maybe I’ll have a stiff drink instead!

Cheers. I think I will join you. It’s been a long week.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Cheers. I think I will join you. It’s been a long week.

 

[99th_Monkey]

Actually all the Republicans are asking for is a one year delay in the individual mandate - not a repeal of ACA. Obama did the exact same thing (only illegally) for the employer mandate.

They don’t seem to know what they want.

“We’re not going to be disrespected,” Rep. Marlin Stutzman of Indiana told the Washington Examiner. “We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”

I wonder if the conversation goes something like this behind closed doors.
youtube.com/watch?v=9GVsRUJEoB8

 

[ProVobis]

I wonder if the conversation goes something like this behind closed doors.
youtube.com/watch?v=9GVsRUJEoB8

It actually goes like this.

youtube.com/watch?v=PByJ7j7XST4

It’s all about winning and losing, folks. We don’t matter.

 

[meltzerboy]

First of all, there is no particular reason to believe Obamacare will bring “healthcare to millions of uninsured Americans” when Obama himself admits 30 million won’t be covered, and it’s beginning to look like more than that. And have you looked at the coverage? It’s reminiscent of what they used to say about the Missouri River, a mile wide and a foot deep. Yes, if you’re a 60 year old woman, you’ll have maternity coverage and full contraceptive and abortifacient coverage, both of which you’re paying for indirectly. But for your hip replacement, it’s only 60% on the bronze plan and 70% on the more expensive silver plan. You pick up the rest. And dumping 17 million more people onto Medicaid only crowds out the poor who are already on it.

So, Obamacare fails what you feel is Pope Benedict’s ideal.

Be embarrassed by Tea Party conservatives or other conservatives if you wish. Personally, I’m not. And it’s a virtual certainty that the leftists in Europe and elsewhere will think we should be embarrassed. Those who are not might well envy a country that actually indulges in robust debate and political battle within constitutional limits rather than submitting to some dictum from Brussels or somewhere. Perhaps many will think Americans really meant it when we rejected kings, emperors or potentates whatever name or title they might apply to themselves.

I’m not a particular admirer of, say, Ted Cruz, but it actually is refreshing to see some of those people in Washington stand up on their hind legs and PROTEST something for a change; to use the powers given to them by the Constitution instead of acting like a herd of lemmings like the Dems seem willing to do when one knows full well that they don’t all believe in Obamacare, but can’t brook the power of their leaders. No, I’m glad to see SOMEBODY resist the “leaders”. As, for example, the Arab and Israeli leaders look on a country that has been so supine in the face of that Lynx, Putin and that devil Rouhani, might well have some new hope that there is actually a spine left somewhere within the borders of the U.S.

Others in this nation who feel they have grievances ought to persuade their representatives to their causes. That’s why they’re there.

Some of the Bush tax cuts WERE eliminated, and (to my sorrow) Repubs went along with it in “compromise”. But when it comes to Obamacare, oh no, we can’t compromise on that even though we know for sure the nation can’t afford it. Irony after irony.

If Obama respected democratic processes, his eyes would be bleary with fatigue from hammering out resolutions with the House. But they’re not because he won’t negotiate with them. Not on Obamacare, not on the Park Service, not on VA, not on the National Institutes of health, not on the debt ceiling, not on anything.

Personally, I hope it keeps on. Those Repubs who are willing to break through the seven veils of the mainstream media that protects Obama from the consequences of his actions are men of noble purpose. Maybe the public will more and more come to see that. Maybe it won’t, and if doesn’t, those who stood up will pay the price. At least they’re willing to risk their careers; a characteristic often sorely lacking in government folk.

I have a few questions concerning your comments. Why does “dumping 17 million more people on Medicaid only crowd out the poor who are already on it”? Isn’t this only if the individual states are unwilling to pay for Medicaid? Remember too that it’s not only the poor but also the disabled who often need Medicaid although these groups are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Also, isn’t the 60% of the tab for hip replacement that the bronze plan might pick up better than nothing and are these actual statistics that you’ve seen in the plan? Finally, do you really think the Republicans are protesting Obamacare based on “noble purpose” rather than political ideology?

 

[Al_Moritz]

I can’t believe that the article from Truthout was written two years ago. I thought I made a mistake and scrolled up to check the date. It’s terrifying

Yes, it is terrifying – and incredibly prescient. Remember the “47 %” remark that, thank God, helped bring down Mitt Romney’s candidacy in 2012? Now compare this text from the 2011 article:

*When pressed, Republicans make up misleading statistics to “prove” that the America’s fiscal burden is being borne by the rich and the rest of us are just freeloaders who don’t appreciate that fact. “Half of Americans don’t pay taxes” is a perennial meme. But what they leave out is that that statement refers to federal income taxes. There are millions of people who don’t pay income taxes, but do contribute payroll taxes - among the most regressive forms of taxation. But according to GOP fiscal theology, payroll taxes don’t count. Somehow, they have convinced themselves that since payroll taxes go into trust funds, they’re not real taxes. Likewise, state and local sales taxes apparently don’t count, although their effect on a poor person buying necessities like foodstuffs is far more regressive than on a millionaire.

All of these half truths and outright lies have seeped into popular culture via the corporate-owned business press. Just listen to CNBC for a few hours and you will hear most of them in one form or another. More important politically, Republicans’ myths about taxation have been internalized by millions of economically downscale “values voters,” who may have been attracted to the GOP for other reasons (which I will explain later), but who now accept this misinformation as dogma.*

And again, this is not Democratic propaganda, it is a conservative and former GOP operative who writes these words.

 

[99th_Monkey]

Yes, it is terrifying – and incredibly prescient. Remember the “47 %” remark that, thank God, helped bring down Mitt Romney’s candidacy in 2012? Now compare this text from the 2011 article:

When pressed, Republicans make up misleading statistics to “prove” that the America’s fiscal burden is being borne by the rich and the rest of us are just freeloaders who don’t appreciate that fact. “Half of Americans don’t pay taxes” is a perennial meme. But what they leave out is that that statement refers to federal income taxes. There are millions of people who don’t pay income taxes, but do contribute payroll taxes - among the most regressive forms of taxation. But according to GOP fiscal theology, payroll taxes don’t count. Somehow, they have convinced themselves that since payroll taxes go into trust funds, they’re not real taxes. Likewise, state and local sales taxes apparently don’t count, although their effect on a poor person buying necessities like foodstuffs is far more regressive than on a millionaire.

All of these half truths and outright lies have seeped into popular culture via the corporate-owned business press. Just listen to CNBC for a few hours and you will hear most of them in one form or another. More important politically, Republicans’ myths about taxation have been internalized by millions of economically downscale “values voters,” who may have been attracted to the GOP for other reasons (which I will explain later), but who now accept this misinformation as dogma.

And again, this is not Democratic propaganda, it is a conservative and former GOP operative who writes these words.

I’ve heard that tax argument over and over. I read an interesting book called (I think)
Blinded by the Right. It was also written by someone who was fed up with the lies. He went on to found Media Matter for America which is a valuable resource to democracy.

 

[VanSensei]

Democrats are right, this shutdown needs to be over soon. If I knew the GOP was gonna be this incompetent in trying to solve their problems like this, I would’ve voted Democrat.

 

[Al_Moritz]

Democrats are right, this shutdown needs to be over soon. If I knew the GOP was gonna be this incompetent in trying to solve their problems like this, I would’ve voted Democrat.

Good for you! I did vote that way, and I am glad I did. This may have been the most important election in a generation, and America got it right. It also got the popular vote for the House right (there were something like 1.2 million votes more for Democratic than for Republican House members), but the Republicans stole the election with their gerrymandering of districts (not that Democrts are innocent about that, but Republicans have made it an entirely new art form).

 

[bellasbane]

First of all, there is no particular reason to believe Obamacare will bring “healthcare to millions of uninsured Americans” when Obama himself admits 30 million won’t be covered, and it’s beginning to look like more than that. And have you looked at the coverage? It’s reminiscent of what they used to say about the Missouri River, a mile wide and a foot deep. Yes, if you’re a 60 year old woman, you’ll have maternity coverage and full contraceptive and abortifacient coverage, both of which you’re paying for indirectly. But for your hip replacement, it’s only 60% on the bronze plan and 70% on the more expensive silver plan. You pick up the rest. And dumping 17 million more people onto Medicaid only crowds out the poor who are already on it.

So, Obamacare fails what you feel is Pope Benedict’s ideal.

The ACA isn’t perfect, but its a heck of a lot closer to Pope Benedict’s ideal than what we had before. What do the Republicans have to offer? Where is their plan for providing universal healthcare? Oh - it’s that program Romney put in place in Massachusetts. :doh2:

Be embarrassed by Tea Party conservatives or other conservatives if you wish. Personally, I’m not. And it’s a virtual certainty that the leftists in Europe and elsewhere will think we should be embarrassed. Those who are not might well envy a country that actually indulges in robust debate and political battle within constitutional limits rather than submitting to some dictum from Brussels or somewhere. Perhaps many will think Americans really meant it when we rejected kings, emperors or potentates whatever name or title they might apply to themselves.

Are you calling all of Europe leftist or just those nations with universal health care? Wait, that’s virtually ALL of them - including the Vatican!
Whistle while you wait: Vatican employees have heavenly health system I guess that speech Pope Benedict made about it being the governments responsibility to provide healthcare is pretty far out there on the left.

I’m not a particular admirer of, say, Ted Cruz, but it actually is refreshing to see some of those people in Washington stand up on their hind legs and PROTEST something for a change; to use the powers given to them by the Constitution instead of acting like a herd of lemmings like the Dems seem willing to do when one knows full well that they don’t all believe in Obamacare, but can’t brook the power of their leaders. No, I’m glad to see SOMEBODY resist the “leaders”. As, for example, the Arab and Israeli leaders look on a country that has been so supine in the face of that Lynx, Putin and that devil Rouhani, might well have some new hope that there is actually a spine left somewhere within the borders of the U.S.

Others in this nation who feel they have grievances ought to persuade their representatives to their causes. That’s why they’re there.

What do you mean by “stand on their hind legs” - are you suggesting that the Republicans in Washington are some kind of four footed animal (with forelegs and hind legs). I always thought the “donkey” and “elephant” were just mascots.

Seems like you are advocating anarchy, “resist the leaders!” That what the leftists were all about at the turn of the century. That is what defines radicals. They are people who don’t feel empowered by the system so they work to undermine and destroy it. The problem is that the system the Tea Party is undermining and destroying is the United States of America.

Some of the Bush tax cuts WERE eliminated, and (to my sorrow) Repubs went along with it in “compromise”. But when it comes to Obamacare, oh no, we can’t compromise on that even though we know for sure the nation can’t afford it. Irony after irony.

If Obama respected democratic processes, his eyes would be bleary with fatigue from hammering out resolutions with the House. But they’re not because he won’t negotiate with them. Not on Obamacare, not on the Park Service, not on VA, not on the National Institutes of health, not on the debt ceiling, not on anything.

The ACA has survived the democratic process, a supreme court challenge and a national referendum. There is nothing left to negotiate. In this country, we live by the rule of law and the ACA is the law of the land. If the GOP wants to change the law, then they will have to abide by the law and win enough elections in order to do it legitimately.

Personally, I hope it keeps on. Those Repubs who are willing to break through the seven veils of the mainstream media that protects Obama from the consequences of his actions are men of noble purpose. Maybe the public will more and more come to see that. Maybe it won’t, and if doesn’t, those who stood up will pay the price. At least they’re willing to risk their careers; a characteristic often sorely lacking in government folk.

The problem is that they are not risking anything. I’m sure most have wealthy donors who have promised to take care of them when things get bad. No, what they are doing is undermining the United States Government and economy and risking the well being of millions of Americans - including you.

 

[Al_Moritz]

Personally, I hope it keeps on. Those Repubs who are willing to break through the seven veils of the mainstream media that protects Obama from the consequences of his actions are men of noble purpose. Maybe the public will more and more come to see that. Maybe it won’t, and if doesn’t, those who stood up will pay the price. At least they’re willing to risk their careers; a characteristic often sorely lacking in government folk.

No, as Bellashane points out, they don’t risk anything. The 30 to 40 Tea Party extremists in the House who led the “defund Obamacare” charge and caused the shutdown (due to Boehner’s cowardness to stand up to them and allow a simple vote on the House floor) come from heavily gerrymandered districts where Obama was beaten by +20 points, and the population is +75 % white (thus absolutely unrepresentative of the US as a whole). They have nothing to fear, except for being not enough hard-right for their constituents – a risk they obviously don’t take. And no, they are not men of noble purpose, they are only concerned about being “heroes” in their gerrymandered districts (see above) and could care less about the greater good of this country – as proven by their willingness to wreck our economy into a second Great Depression due to actual default. But in their childish phantasy world a default of the US would be “no big deal”, even though most grown-up economists sharply think otherwise – fortunately Boehner, who may be a coward but who most certainly is not a fool, unlike those idiots, has at least yesterday indicated the courage to agree with the consensus of economists and not to let this country go into default when push comes to shove

 

[99th_Monkey]

Democrats are right, this shutdown needs to be over soon. If I knew the GOP was gonna be this incompetent in trying to solve their problems like this, I would’ve voted Democrat.

I have a theory that the big money power brokers no longer care if a candidate appears reasonable. I wonder how so many incompetent people, who are truly uninformed, can make it to congress and keep their seats. I guess that says something about us, the voters.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Good for you! I did vote that way, and I am glad I did. This may have been the most important election in a generation, and America got it right. It also got the popular vote for the House right (there were something like 1.2 million votes more for Democratic than for Republican House members), but the Republicans stole the election with their gerrymandering of districts (not that Democrts are innocent about that, but Republicans have made it an entirely new art form).

Stunning!

 

[99th_Monkey]

No, as Bellashane points out, they don’t risk anything. The 30 to 40 Tea Party extremists in the House who led the “defund Obamacare” charge and caused the shutdown (due to Boehner’s cowardness to stand up to them) come from heavily gerrymandered districts where Obama was beaten by +20 points, and the population is +75 % white (thus absolutely unrepresentative of the US as a whole). They have nothing to fear, except for being not enough hard-right for their constituents – a risk they obviously don’t take. And no, they are not men of noble purpose, they are only concerned about being “heroes” in their gerrymandered districts (see above) and could care less about the greater good of this country – as proven by their willingness to wreck our economy into a second Great Depression due to actual default (but in their childish phantasy world a default of the US would be “no big deal”, even though most grown-up economists sharply think otherwise).

I couldn’t agree more. But to refer to my point above, they don’t seem smart enough to know the damage they cause…or they don’t care. These are not patriots. That’s why they have to keep saying that they are.

 

[Jeanne_S]

I have a theory that the big money power brokers no longer care if a candidate appears reasonable. I wonder how so many incompetent people, who are truly uninformed, can make it to congress and keep their seats. I guess that says something about us, the voters.

Bingo!

 

[99th_Monkey]

Bingo!

See what happens when we drink together. We find we can agree on a few things.

 

[Al_Moritz]

I couldn’t agree more. But to refer to my point above, they don’t seem smart enough to know the damage they cause…or they don’t care.

Both.

These are not patriots.

No, they are not. As I pointed out, they only care about their districts, not about the USA. In fact, having the intention to put the full faith and credit of the USA at risk through default is treason, in my view (no, I am not exaggerating).

 

[ishii]

You do realize that by condoning what the GOP is doing, you are essentially throwing the American democratic process under the bus in favor of rule by oligarchy.

In all charity, my guess is that this is something you simply failed to realize and am glad to have had this opportunity to enlighten you.

You mean the oligarchy that chooses not to enforce laws that are on the books, like DOMA? That oligarchy? Or do you mean the folks democratically elected to the House by America?

Do you mean the “my way or the highway” folks who rammed Obamacare through congress - with NO bi-partisan support whatsoever? There wasn’t much negotiation then, was there. No attempt to forge a bipartisan consensus on a fundamental transformation of our healthcare system. And now the Republicans are saying “wait a minute - not so fast, Obama.” And Obama is crying, “not fair, not fair.”

I think you need to clarify what you mean by oligarchy.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

See what happens when we drink together. We find we can agree on a few things.

Maybe on what to drink.

 

[livingwordunity]

Quoted from post #57:

First of all, there is no particular reason to believe Obamacare will bring “healthcare to millions of uninsured Americans” when Obama himself admits 30 million won’t be covered, and it’s beginning to look like more than that. And have you looked at the coverage? It’s reminiscent of what they used to say about the Missouri River, a mile wide and a foot deep. Yes, if you’re a 60 year old woman, you’ll have maternity coverage and full contraceptive and abortifacient coverage, both of which you’re paying for indirectly. But for your hip replacement, it’s only 60% on the bronze plan and 70% on the more expensive silver plan. You pick up the rest. And dumping 17 million more people onto Medicaid only crowds out the poor who are already on it.

So, Obamacare fails what you feel is Pope Benedict’s ideal.

Be embarrassed by Tea Party conservatives or other conservatives if you wish. Personally, I’m not. And it’s a virtual certainty that the leftists in Europe and elsewhere will think we should be embarrassed. Those who are not might well envy a country that actually indulges in robust debate and political battle within constitutional limits rather than submitting to some dictum from Brussels or somewhere. Perhaps many will think Americans really meant it when we rejected kings, emperors or potentates whatever name or title they might apply to themselves.

I’m not a particular admirer of, say, Ted Cruz, but it actually is refreshing to see some of those people in Washington stand up on their hind legs and PROTEST something for a change; to use the powers given to them by the Constitution instead of acting like a herd of lemmings like the Dems seem willing to do when one knows full well that they don’t all believe in Obamacare, but can’t brook the power of their leaders. No, I’m glad to see SOMEBODY resist the “leaders”. As, for example, the Arab and Israeli leaders look on a country that has been so supine in the face of that Lynx, Putin and that devil Rouhani, might well have some new hope that there is actually a spine left somewhere within the borders of the U.S.

Others in this nation who feel they have grievances ought to persuade their representatives to their causes. That’s why they’re there.

Some of the Bush tax cuts WERE eliminated, and (to my sorrow) Repubs went along with it in “compromise”. But when it comes to Obamacare, oh no, we can’t compromise on that even though we know for sure the nation can’t afford it. Irony after irony.

If Obama respected democratic processes, his eyes would be bleary with fatigue from hammering out resolutions with the House. But they’re not because he won’t negotiate with them. Not on Obamacare, not on the Park Service, not on VA, not on the National Institutes of health, not on the debt ceiling, not on anything.

Personally, I hope it keeps on. Those Repubs who are willing to break through the seven veils of the mainstream media that protects Obama from the consequences of his actions are men of noble purpose. Maybe the public will more and more come to see that. Maybe it won’t, and if doesn’t, those who stood up will pay the price. At least they’re willing to risk their careers; a characteristic often sorely lacking in government folk.