Denial - general discussion

[underacloud]

Standing on their own, those are true statements but to say ‘I like to see the good in someone’ immediately after being told they were abusive to me is like saying I deserved the abuse

There is a big difference between real abuse and fairly common family squabbles. She may not realise that you are talking about the former. She may think it’s a fairly common falling out similar to the one she had.

Perhaps it was a mark of respect, but there was not much respect in her blatant refusal to consider that I have a point of view and the possibility exist that it is the best course of action to just not have contact with my brother.

Have you asked her directly to consider this possibility? It seems from your account that this is more inferred than stated that she is blatantly refusing to consider it?

Asking me any question that you feel could she light on the conversation and I will give an honest answer

I don’t doubt you’ll give an honest answer, but nonetheless it is still just your perspective, and your own imperfect memory of events and what was said (because all memories are imperfect). That’s an important point and one that relates to this woman’s treating of this matter.

To suggest (or imply, as she did) that one’s memory and perspective are imperfect is very different that saying one is a liar.

Anyway - back to your question. No, I don’t think this conversation suggests she’s in denial. I suspect moreso, as outlined above, that her falling out with her brother is very different to yours - ie more a common family squabble and less in the realm of abuse.

 

[Anglewannabe]

There is a big difference between real abuse and fairly common family squabbles. She may not realise that you are talking about the former. She may think it’s a fairly common falling out similar to the one she had…

I ask this question with sincere honesty. When I told her ‘My brother is a very abusive person I had no choice but to cut contact with him.’ if she thinks it is just a family squabble, what else can I do or say to make her see it really is abusive. I am not going to tell her what he did because after her reaction, I fear she will just trivialize it.

Have you asked her directly to consider this possibility? It seems from your account that this is more inferred than stated that she is blatantly refusing to consider it?..

I was planning on telling her that very often when I make comments about myself instead of feeling I was allowed to share who I am, I feel as if I am trying to be talked into becoming what she wants me to be and see what she says

To suggest (or imply, as she did) that one’s memory and perspective are imperfect is very different that saying one is a liar…

She never suggested my memory was imperfect. She said that since she thinks I come from a good family she has trouble believing my brother is abusive. That is NOT implying I don’t remember what happened. And when I asked her point blank if she believe my brother is abusive and she said ‘I never met him’ is saying that she really does not think I am intelligent enough to make an accurate assessment of my brother’s behaviour

Anyway - back to your question. No, I don’t think this conversation suggests she’s in denial. I suspect moreso, as outlined above, that her falling out with her brother is very different to yours - ie more a common family squabble and less in the realm of abuse.

When I originally asked if it is possible she is in denial, it was not about anything between her and her brother. It was because of things she told me her father did (that I don’t want to repeat because it would be uncharitable gossip) that are quite IMO damaging to a child. I suspect she is not capable of admitting the effect her father’s behavior had on her.

 

[underacloud]

I ask this question with sincere honesty. When I told her ‘My brother is a very abusive person I had no choice but to cut contact with him.’ if she thinks it is just a family squabble, what else can I do or say to make her see it really is abusive. I am not going to tell her what he did because after her reaction, I fear she will just trivialize it.

It’s your prerogative to not go into detail of course. But then you can’t really expect her to understand the situation.

I was planning on telling her that very often when I make comments about myself instead of feeling I was allowed to share who I am, I feel as if I am trying to be talked into becoming what she wants me to be and see what she says

Yes, that’s fair enough. That’s quite a nice and constructive way of expressing your frustration here.

She never suggested my memory was imperfect. She said that since she thinks I come from a good family she has trouble believing my brother is abusive. That is NOT implying I don’t remember what happened. And when I asked her point blank if she believe my brother is abusive and she said ‘I never met him’ is saying that she really does not think I am intelligent enough to make an accurate assessment of my brother’s behaviour

Right - it seems implicit that she’s challenging how accurate your assessment is and whether you are being too harsh on him. Which may not be reasonable if she knew the full details, but she doesn’t.

And she didn’t need to suggest your memory is imperfect - it is a fact of life that it is, and it seems implicit in her comments.

When I originally asked if it is possible she is in denial, it was not about anything between her and her brother. It was because of things she told me her father did (that I don’t want to repeat because it would be uncharitable gossip) that are quite IMO damaging to a child. I suspect she is not capable of admitting the effect her father’s behavior had on her.

Ah, ok. I think it’s fair to say that most of us have experienced things via our parents that shape us and our personalities. Not always positive of course. And yes very often we are in denial about them.

 

[Anglewannabe]

It’s your prerogative to not go into detail of course. But then you can’t really expect her to understand the situation…

I never expected her to totally understand the situation. I expected her to have enough manners not to continue acting as if I don’t know what I am talking about and suggesting I have contact with my brother. It just occurred to me as I wrote this, probably what was irking me to most is she could not accept the boundary. She felt some need to get me to change my mind

Right - it seems implicit that she’s challenging how accurate your assessment is and whether you are being too harsh on him…

Isn’t a contradiction to call me such a nice person if she thinks I am too harsh

And she didn’t need to suggest your memory is imperfect - it is a fact of life that it is, and it seems implicit in her comments…

No, what she was saying is she doesn’t know my brother. I don’t know her father, but I know her well enough that I give her the benefit of the doubt and believe her when she tells me what he did. Which by the way is quite shocking and I never would have guessed. And after all her father did, she didn’t turn out to be a bad person, so she is living proof people from the same family can be different.

Why can’t she give me the benefit of the doubt?

 

[underacloud]

Isn’t a contradiction to call me such a nice person if she thinks I am too harsh

No, not a contradiction. People who are in general nice can be too harsh in certain specific situations. Just as people who are generally not nice can still be nice sometimes.

No, what she was saying is she doesn’t know my brother. I don’t know her father, but I know her well enough that I give her the benefit of the doubt and believe her when she tells me what he did. Which by the way is quite shocking and I never would have guessed. And after all her father did, she didn’t turn out to be a bad person, so she is living proof people from the same family can be different.

Why can’t she give me the benefit of the doubt?

She may just be the sort to play devil’s advocate in such situations. Some friends are good at lending an ear and helping us vent, while other friends are more inclined to want to troubleshoot things and look for solutions. My experiences in life make me believe that both these types of friends are important to us. In this situation you wanted a sympathetic ear and your friend perhaps misread this, or just isn’t the right person for you to share such discussions with.

Anyway, we all like to receive the benefit of the doubt. So I suggest extend to her the benefit of the doubt regarding this conversation and put it behind you.

 

[EasterJoy]

…Anyway, we all like to receive the benefit of the doubt. So I suggest extend to her the benefit of the doubt regarding this conversation and put it behind you.

The thing to remember about forgiveness is that it doesn’t require us to come up with an excuse for the offender. It just requires letting go of the incident. Sometimes, that is easier to do when we realize that forgiveness covers whether the other person is culpable or not. We’re letting go of our right to judge, but that doesn’t require us to reach “not guilty” verdict. We don’t have to concern ourselves with whether we have a doubt or not.

Forgiveness also does not require us to give a position of trust to someone we forgive. It doesn’t mean giving up the “sovereignty” of our own personal borders. We still get to decide who we invite in, who we don’t. We can be the gatekeeper at that border while giving up judgment of others if we remember it takes a ticket from us to get in, not a warrant for arrest to keep others out. We owe no one an apology or an excuse if we don’t extend that invitation.

In my experience, the problems come when someone tries to force their way into places they have no right to go and we feel a need to prove to them that we have authority to keep them out. It is freeing to maintain our authority without apology.

If we give ourselves permission to enforce our own borders without owing anyone else an excuse for doing it, it is a lot easier to step down from the judgment seat and refuse to judge cases that don’t belong in our court. When we reinforce our own authority in our own estimation, we can remain serene, expect that some other people aren’t going to like it, and let them have the problem of coping with their discomfort about it. Let them be uncomfortable. That’s their decision, that’s OK. It doesn’t mean we’re in the wrong. It means they have one of those problems that does not concern us.

The co-worker’s motives are not the OP’s to judge, not any more than the OP’s decisions about how to handle her family relationships are the co-worker’s to judge. The OP can give herself permission to say, “that’s private, I decide who goes there and when and that’s that” and refrain from concerning herself with doing any more than enforcing that rule.

It takes a lot of practice to maintain the authority that is ours without straying over into what is not ours in self-defense, but it is very much worth it. OP, don’t punish yourself for taking time to learn how to do that. Just continuously ask for the grace to be merciful and to have courage and work in that direction.

 

[underacloud]

Benefit of the doubt and forgiveness are not the same thing. I’m talking of trying to interpret other’s actions in a favourable manner; something we are supposed to try to do. If a favourable interpretation is impossible (or highly unlikely) we can then think of forgiveness.

But yes, either way, it is entirely Angie’s right to open her confidence to any given person, or to choose not to. Perhaps Angie should keep this friend at arms-length in the future.

 

[EasterJoy]

Benefit of the doubt and forgiveness are not the same thing. I’m talking of trying to interpret other’s actions in a favourable manner; something we are supposed to try to do. If a favourable interpretation is impossible (or highly unlikely) we can then think of forgiveness.

But yes, either way, it is entirely Angie’s right to open her confidence to any given person, or to choose not to. Perhaps Angie should keep this friend at arms-length in the future.

That is the great thing about forgiveness. She can give up the whole exercise of deciding whether the woman needs it or not because in this case she isn’t forced to make an interpretation at all. Sometimes we do need to make an interpretation, in which case we must strictly avoid rash judgment, but sometimes we can discern what we need to do without any of that.

This is not her sister, whom she has confided in for many years. She is not agonizing over unwanted feedback from a dear friend and a valued part of her support system. This is a co-worker who took a passing mention of family matters as an occasion to attempt an unwanted and unneeded intervention of “family attitude adjustment” and proceeded to ignore very clear communications that the intervention was not welcome.

The OP doesn’t need to know why she did that. She only needs to remind herself that she doesn’t need a reason to keep her private life private from this co-worker, that this is not someone to whom she ought to lightly make private disclosures. She can make a mental note to disclose less and not to attempt to explain herself when this woman purports to be trying to understand her. The co-worker was not a good listener. The woman will have opportunities to prove that was a one-time deal, but in the meantime, learn a lesson and move on without worrying about assessing who might have been “at fault.”

So, let go of hard feelings, let go of deciding who was right or who was wrong. Conclude that of all the people who are a good fit for listener and confidant about family of origin issues, this woman is not a good fit for the OP. Maybe a great friend for someone else, but not in the OP’s comfort zone. Make a mental note to just avoid anything that could be taken as confiding or an invitation to discuss what the OP has no desire to discuss. Don’t be lured into giving reasons for keeping private things private. Just pleasantly and kindly demur when the invitation to discuss these things come up, put an end to it, brightly change the subject, and move on. All done.

 

[underacloud]

So, let go of hard feelings, let go of deciding who was right or who was wrong. Conclude that of all the people who are a good fit for listener and confidant about family of origin issues, this woman is not a good fit for the OP. Maybe a great friend for someone else, but not in the OP’s comfort zone. Make a mental note to just avoid anything that could be taken as confiding or an invitation to discuss what the OP has no desire to discuss. Don’t be lured into giving reasons for keeping private things private. Just pleasantly and kindly demur when the invitation to discuss these things come up, put an end to it, brightly change the subject, and move on. All done.

Yes, sounds good.

It’s often easier to keep work discussion to things like football, what you did on the weekend, where your next holiday will be, etc. sometimes work friends become deeper friends, but often not.

 

[Anglewannabe]

The thing to remember about forgiveness is that it doesn’t require us to come up with an excuse for the offender. It just requires letting go of the incident. .

It would be great to let go of the incident. Sadly, I have been around this woman enough to now that I am easily tricked into getting into debate. The reality is, I have noticed, from where I am sitting, the debate is the symptom. The root cause is I am always being made to feel I am wrong. She has a way of strongly reacting to simple statements and looking at me like I am growing horns.

Examples:

When I told her I didn’t have a cell phone, a high pitch ‘How can you live without one’ and when I explained to her my choice to not have a cell phone instead of a ‘Thank you for sharing’ she contradicted everyone of my statements

Her husband’s baseball team was looking for more players and she told me she told them I would join and I said ‘no’ she gave a high pitch ‘but I already told them you would love to because you are always at the gym’ I told her I do aerobics not team sports, I got a big lecture about how wrong I was

When the girl talk was about having guests over and I said ‘I only invite people who respect I do all the work since I can not stand having people in my kitchen’ I got the big lecture about how I am too picky and need to let people in my kitchen.

I am fed up with all the times I just make a simple statement to join the conversation and she treats me like I am a weirdo.

Not with all that said and done, she does have good qualities and I do generally like her. Probably the reason I posted this because I want to work it out. If I didn’t like her, I just would have avoided her like the plague

 

[pensmama87]

Sounds like you need to learn to avoid giving reasons - they invite her to come up with an objection.

“No thank you,” “no thank you,” “no thank you,” on repeat.

“Thanks for thinking of me, but it’s just not my preference.” “Why not?” “It just isn’t. Now, about this work-related issue…”

You do not have to get her to agree with you or see your side. You need to get her to stop bugging you.

 

[LethalMouse]

Humans on politics, science, religion etc…

I don’t follow politics but let me tell you what would work

I dont know about the science of that but let me tell you how it works

I have never read the bible but let me tell you how God actually works

---

Humans on morals

I want a nice family (keeps cheating)

I dont believe in doing [insert thing] ( keeps doing it)

Denial is the greatest superpower of humans hands down.

 

[LethalMouse]

On insert culture ie: everyone is great!

So basically if I am not in great shape I know wholeheartedly it is for a combination of 2 reasons: 1. I eat too much delicious 2. I dont excersice enough…

Without denial this is a flaw

With denial I am GREAT and how dare anyone notice I am a lazy glutton!!! For my image is GREAT!!!

I kinda wish I had denial skills like that

 

[EasterJoy]

It would be great to let go of the incident. Sadly, I have been around this woman enough to now that I am easily tricked into getting into debate. The reality is, I have noticed, from where I am sitting, the debate is the symptom. The root cause is I am always being made to feel I am wrong. She has a way of strongly reacting to simple statements and looking at me like I am growing horns.

Yes, you do have to live with the knowledge that she will withhold validation and probably criticize you to your face.

You can’t win with her. She is a rigged game, a game in which she cannot lose. At some point, you have to learn to pass by the Playground of the Righteous where the only way to win is to make her your team captain. If you don’t want that, you can’t go there.

Examples:

When I told her I didn’t have a cell phone, a high pitch ‘How can you live without one’ and when I explained to her my choice to not have a cell phone instead of a ‘Thank you for sharing’ she contradicted everyone of my statements

You don’t have to thank her for sharing. She says, “how can you live without one,” you say, “I do,” she starts to go on and on giving you advice, and you say, “I beg your pardon?” Since she is dense, she will probably go on and you can say, “When I said I didn’t have a cell phone, I didn’t ask for your feedback about the situation. I was only giving you information. I don’t have a cell phone, and yet I continue to exist. That’s that.”

Her husband’s baseball team was looking for more players and she told me she told them I would join and I said ‘no’ she gave a high pitch ‘but I already told them you would love to because you are always at the gym’ I told her I do aerobics not team sports, I got a big lecture about how wrong I was

“You told him what?!? Why would you tell them that without asking me? I don’t have any intention of joining a baseball team. If I change my mind I’ll find my own team, thank you very much. You’re going to have to let your husband look elsewhere.” End of conversation.

When the girl talk was about having guests over and I said ‘I only invite people who respect I do all the work since I can not stand having people in my kitchen’ I got the big lecture about how I am too picky and need to let people in my kitchen.

“Your kitchen, your rules. My kitchen, my rules, which is why I love my kitchen.”

I am fed up with all the times I just make a simple statement to join the conversation and she treats me like I am a weirdo.

Not with all that said and done, she does have good qualities and I do generally like her. Probably the reason I posted this because I want to work it out. If I didn’t like her, I just would have avoided her like the plague

Well, you’re going to have to draw your boundaries and allow her to openly comment on how you are impossible to reason with. It will drive her crazy, but you can learn to live with it.

You know the comic strip, Peanuts? She is Lucy. That’s what you’re dealing with. You don’t have to be Charlie Brown, though. You don’t even have to be Linus. You can let her go on and on how she’s right and you’re wrong without taking it personally or allowing her to bully you. All it takes is seeing that she is Lucy, someone who can’t understand why the world won’t let her make it perfect by letting her dictate how it ought to turn. You can do that. It won’t make her different, though. It will just allow you not to take her definitive decrees quite so definitively.

 

[Anglewannabe]

Well, things have at least come to a conclusion where I know where I stand and that is a good thing.

I asked her for a private talk. I can’t remember the play by play details but here are some of the things that happened. Let’s call her ‘Lucy’ (from EJ’s earlier post)

---

Angie: When we have discussions, I feel like I am being shames for my opinion.

Lucy : So do I

Angie: How do we reach a point where we can each express our opinion and feel respected

Lucy doesn’t answer the question but changes the topic

---

Angie: There is always a heated response that makes me feel shame. For example when I said I did not want to join your husband’s baseball team

Lucy: I never forced you. When I said ‘But I told them you would join’ I was joking around. That is who I am and I will not change

---

Angie: Do you understand how it was painful for me when you kept saying ‘I have trouble believing your brother who grew up in the same house as you is abusive’

Lucy: You opened yourself up for that. When you say your brother was abusive, I can say anything I want back

Angie: When you told me about all the things your dad did, I never reacted and told you to quit associating with him. I left it as is and made no comment either way

Lucy: When I told you about my dad, I opened myself up and you then had the right to say whatever you wanted

Angie thoughts in her mind ‘ I don’t think anything gives me the right to be rude’

---

So in a nutshell, any attempt I tried to make to show her how it was painful for me and ask her to stop was rejected. Any attempt to create a win-win situation was rejected. She was offended and very adamant she that was who she was and she was not going to change. She was adamant that she was joking and she did nothing wrong.

Then she said that perhaps we should forget about being friends and I said ‘Fair enough’

As much as in general she is a pleasant person to be around. I have been around the type before. ie every time she hurts someone feelings, it is the other person’s fault for having feelings

Every time she hurts someone the go to excuse is ‘I was joking’

So the reality is, I am relieve because I don’t think she will be bugging me anymore

Angie

 

[underacloud]

Then she said that perhaps we should forget about being friends and I said ‘Fair enough’

Oh well, at least you know where you both stand now.

So the reality is, I am relieve because I don’t think she will be bugging me anymore

Something tells me you’ll continue to be bugged. But let’s hope she got the message.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well, things have at least come to a conclusion where I know where I stand and that is a good thing.

I asked her for a private talk. I can’t remember the play by play details but here are some of the things that happened. Let’s call her ‘Lucy’ (from EJ’s earlier post)

---

Angie: When we have discussions, I feel like I am being shames for my opinion.

Lucy : So do I

Angie: How do we reach a point where we can each express our opinion and feel respected

Lucy doesn’t answer the question but changes the topic

---

Angie: There is always a heated response that makes me feel shame. For example when I said I did not want to join your husband’s baseball team

Lucy: I never forced you. When I said ‘But I told them you would join’ I was joking around. That is who I am and I will not change

---

Angie: Do you understand how it was painful for me when you kept saying ‘I have trouble believing your brother who grew up in the same house as you is abusive’

Lucy: You opened yourself up for that. When you say your brother was abusive, I can say anything I want back

Angie: When you told me about all the things your dad did, I never reacted and told you to quit associating with him. I left it as is and made no comment either way

Lucy: When I told you about my dad, I opened myself up and you then had the right to say whatever you wanted

Angie thoughts in her mind ‘ I don’t think anything gives me the right to be rude’

---

So in a nutshell, any attempt I tried to make to show her how it was painful for me and ask her to stop was rejected. Any attempt to create a win-win situation was rejected. She was offended and very adamant she that was who she was and she was not going to change. She was adamant that she was joking and she did nothing wrong.

Then she said that perhaps we should forget about being friends and I said ‘Fair enough’

As much as in general she is a pleasant person to be around. I have been around the type before. ie every time she hurts someone feelings, it is the other person’s fault for having feelings

Every time she hurts someone the go to excuse is ‘I was joking’

So the reality is, I am relieve because I don’t think she will be bugging me anymore

Angie

OK, so
a) she thinks that when someone bares their soul to her in the slightest degree, it does not put a burden of trust on her to be sensitive to a person who trusted her enough to be so vulnerable, but rather gives her carte blanche to say whatever she pleases without thinking twice about whether or not what flies out of her mouth will hurt the feelings of someone so unwise as to place her in that position of trust and
b) she thinks that getting a mean-spirited comment made into a joke excuses the meanness of it when the butt of the joke is not the one willing to issue the excuse.

Well, OK. She is not someone to tell anything private or sensitive.

Write that down and don’t forget it.

If you do say something and she makes one of her comments, you say: Oh, (you can inject a “ha ha” here) *never mind. Forget I said anything. I’m not about to get on the table for a recreational dissection again! *and, if she objects you say, It is this simple: I put the topic on the table, I can take it off again. Well, unless you would like me to just walk out and wait to come back until you’re finished. After all, my bad, I can’t stop you from gossiping about secrets I let slip. I don’t have to sit and listen to you doing it, though. No thanks, been there, done that, not going on that cruise line again.

On the topic of her desire to self-excuse under the cloak of humor, read Letter #11 of the Screwtape Letters for a wonderful exposition of the topic by C.S. Lewis. Here’s an excerpt:

The real use of Jokes or Humour is in quite a different direction, and it is specially promising among the English who take their “sense of humour” so seriously that a deficiency in this sense is almost the only deficiency at which they feel shame. Humour is for them the all-consoling and (mark this) the all-excusing, grace of life. Hence it is invaluable as a means of destroying shame. If a man simply lets others pay for him, he is “mean”; if he boasts of it in a jocular manner and twits his fellows with having been scored off, he is no longer “mean” but a comical fellow. Mere cowardice is shameful; cowardice boasted of with humorous exaggerations and grotesque gestures can passed off as funny. Cruelty is shameful—unless the cruel man can represent it as a practical joke. A thousand bawdy, or even blasphemous, jokes do not help towards a man’s damnation so much as his discovery that almost anything he wants to do can be done, not only without the disapproval but with the admiration of his fellows, if only it can get itself treated as a Joke. And this temptation can be almost entirely hidden from your patient by that English seriousness about Humour. Any suggestion that there might be too much of it can be represented to him as “Puritanical” or as betraying a “lack of humour”.

 

[Anglewannabe]

Something tells me you’ll continue to be bugged. But let’s hope she got the message.

Actually, for the past 2 days whenever I bump into her at the photocopier, I act like nothing but she just gives short answers and keeps her head down.

I bumped into her at the microwave at lunch. She usually sits at the table but today she took her lunch to her desk. I don’t know if it is coincidence but what I found odd is she wasn’t even making small talk with others

Angie

 

[underacloud]

Sounds like she’s pretty upset by what happened. It’s your prerogative to choose who to be friends with, but I suspect you’ve misjudged what she’s said, why she’s said it, and her regard for your friendship in general.

As a one off this could be chalked up as an unfortunate misunderstanding. But based on a long posting history of similar interpersonal issues, I really think it’s time to seriously reconsider whether you are reading people well and properly giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry if that sounds too much like a lecture. But I believe that life is easier if you don’t feel like everyone is out to get you.

 

[Anglewannabe]

Sounds like she’s pretty upset by what happened. It’s your prerogative to choose who to be friends with, but I suspect you’ve misjudged what she’s said, why she’s said it, and her regard for your friendship in general.

I don’t think I misjudged what she said at all. Because if she was a friend worth having, she wouldn’t have insisted so much that she was right. She would have said something more along the lines 'Well, let’s just not talk about your brother.

And I honestly don’t understand what you mean by ‘I misjudge her regard for my friendship’. Are you saying she use to think I was a good friend? or a bad friend?

As a one off this could be chalked up as an unfortunate misunderstanding. But based on a long posting history of similar interpersonal issues, I really think it’s time to seriously reconsider whether you are reading people well and properly giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I don’t think I am misreading her at all. After all, when I told her I made no comment either way when she told me about the abusive things her father did, her exact words were ‘When I talk about my father, I am opening myself up for you to say anything you want’ She thinks it is OK to say rude things if the other person brought up the topic That does not sound like an emotionally stable attitude to me

Sorry if that sounds too much like a lecture. But I believe that life is easier if you don’t feel like everyone is out to get you .

I don’t feel she is out to get me. I think she is oblivious to the unpleasant effect her behavior can have on others and refuses to consider the possibility she could soften her approach.

If I really though she was out to get me, I would not act like nothing happened at the photocopier.