Denominations which allow Women Pastors.

[PRmerger]

I thought the thread was concerning women pastors, each Friend is a priest already by virtue of our inheritance with Christ, we have no need for priests in this world, our Great High Priest is sufficient.

That’s a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing, friend.

There is NOTHING in Scripture which proclaims that we have no need for priests in this world.

You can search Genesis through Revelation and you won’t find that in a single page.

 

[Publisher]

That’s a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing, friend.

There is NOTHING in Scripture which proclaims that we have no need for priests in this world.

You can search Genesis through Revelation and you won’t find that in a single page.

I’ll remain in my 'duped-ness believing" friend. His Presence in Meeting, if part of the “duped-ness” makes it all worth while.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ll remain in my 'duped-ness believing" friend. His Presence in Meeting, if part of the “duped-ness” makes it all worth while.

There is no doubt He is present there.

However, it is troubling that there are folks who are not concerned at the possibility of being duped.

If there was a grown man who reveled and rejoiced in his belief in Santa Claus, would you encourage him to persist in this belief? Even if it made him happy and good to believe in Santa Claus?

NB: I am NOT comparing Quaker beliefs, at all, to belief in Santa Claus.

I am simply making a point regarding truth, and its import.

Even if belief in a particular concept makes one happy and good, one ought not countenance such a belief, if it is not steeped in truth.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I thought the thread was concerning women pastors, each Friend is a priest already by virtue of our inheritance with Christ, we have no need for priests in this world, our Great High Priest is sufficient.

Paul and the writer of Hebrews seem to disagree with you.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Thess 5:12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,13 and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin, the Early Catholic Church determined the canon of scripture and in doing so, they read the whole bible as well, in context. They were also - nearly - 2,000 years closer to the teachings of Christ himself. As we do today, they also held the apostolic teachings that were handed down through time that were not part of scripture. This raises a bunch of questions, not the least of which are:

Why would the Holy Spirit not work in their day to ordain women priests if scripture was so clear? Why not in year 300, 500, 700, 1200 etc?
Why would the Holy Spirit wait 2,000 years to put it into someone’s mind, that scripture should be read in such as way as to ordain women?
How do you know that it is the work of the Holy Spirit putting this into someone’s mind and not that of the evil one?

Per the last comment, the evil one wants to attack Christ’s Church, to fragment it and to deny his flock the sacraments that he himself established for our salvation. In doing so, he leads them away from the Truth, away from eternal life.

PnP

Christ has given us apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Those he appoints he will call and those that he calls he will equip. Those who are pastors or teachers or evangelists will function in their roles, whether you or I or a bishop or an ordination board recognizes such a call, because the Lord who called them will open doors. I have no doubt that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church and the Coptic Church followed their own tradition and did not ordain women as priests. Yet, when I look at history I have seen women who have clearly exercised the ministry of evangelists and shepherds and teachers and prophets regardless of whatever titles people chose to bestow on them.

All I am concerned with is that people obey the Lord. We are all priests, so discerning a separate priestly class is not an issue for Pentecostals. I will not condemn anyone who God has blessed with fruitful and effective ministry of shepherding or teaching or evangelizing regardless of gender. Those who teach false doctrine or attempt to spiritually or financially abuse those in the body of Christ, regardless of their gender, should be called out for what they are–wolves in sheep’s clothing.

 

[Qaletaqa]

It was a poster here who proposed that the catacombs show women celebrating Mass.

It is therefore up to her to offer some sort of evidence for this.

If it is simply the fact that it is a woman raising her hands in prayer, that is clearly not sufficient.

Otherwise, we would interpret this as a woman celebrating Mass as well.

http://www.livingbetterat50.com/wp-...hy-Howard_woman-raising-hands-worshipping.jpg

well that woman in that picture isn’t dressed in what appears to some as priests type vestments is she, she also isn’t hanging out in a catacombs either

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Again, EC… Just because both communions hear what the other believes, doesn’t mean either side necessarily agrees. Do you understand the difference?

Also, is there an authoritative source outside of the dialogues -from either the Roman Catholic Magisterium or your ecclesial body- that concurs with your opinion that Rome and LWF congregations ought to receive at each other’s altars?

As a fellow Lutheran, you understand we believe the Catholic faith. Many LWF national synods/ diocese [ie. Africa] disagree with female ordination but share holy Communion with all other Lutherans. It is not an interpretation of theology but rather a ministry to God’s children. And as Francis, urges us to prayer and humility.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Interesting discussion. All I know is I’ve had contact with a number of priests and pastors in my walk and one of my favorites has been a female Episcopal priest. Granted I understand Roman Catholics here wouldn’t recognize her as a priest.

 

[Porknpie]

based on that is there any evidence to show that they are not celebrating a mass, it works both ways

Just looking at the artwork what I see on the left are three people carrying a deceased person, perhaps an adult. The person on the right is holding a dead infant. Given that it is a catacomb, a place of burial, it makes sense that the artist is depicting a person in prayer for these two dead people. The early Christians definitely prayed for the dead in the catacombs.

Similarly, the second image from the same Catacombs shows three men in flames. They all have their hands raised. In prayer? Yes. Celebrating the Mass? No.

PnP

 

[adrift]

The interesting fact to note is…Jesus never said anything about how the person giving out the bread and wine had to be “ontologically” correct.

He just said: remember me by doing this.

.

It isn’t all that Jesus said. It must be noted that when He said “remember” it was to the Apostles. Jesus taught the Apostles and left them in charge. The priesthood was began in the Old Testament by God. God chose who He wanted. He didn’t choose Marion but He did chose her brother. This fact is not insignificant.

It also needs to be pointed out that not everything that Jesus said to the Apostles was recorded.

 

[stewstew03]

…Yet, when I look at history I have seen women who have clearly exercised the ministry of evangelists and shepherds and teachers and prophets regardless of whatever titles people chose to bestow on them.

…

Correct. There is no need for women to be ordained as priests – we are all priests, as you say, and we can all evangelize – regardless of our “titles.”

 

[GKC]

Interesting discussion. All I know is I’ve had contact with a number of priests and pastors in my walk and one of my favorites has been a female Episcopal priest. Granted I understand Roman Catholics here wouldn’t recognize her as a priest.

I’m Anglican and I wouldn’t recognize her as a priest, either.

OTOH, except in some very rare cases, RCs wouldn’t recognize an Episcopal male in her position as a priest in the sense of this discussion, either.

GKC

 

[andrewstx]

There are two separate points, using women as leaders and teachers and secondarily a formal process of ordination placing those church members separate above and beyond the other faithful brothers and sisters. Those who don’t accept women as leaders tend to title them Evangelist, Prophetess, Sister, only Pastor if she is married and her husband is the official Senior Pastor of the local congregation even if she takes the bulk of the teaching elder role. When new members or visitors arrive you can guess at that church background when they address our teaching pastor’s wife, “First Lady” or “Pastor”. The Church of God In Christ one of the larger Pentecostal organizations, perhaps the largest in North America, does not ordain women. but Foursquare and the Assemblies of GFd do.

As to which is correct to most American Evangelic churches that women are recognized as leaders or they are not I have no ideal of the numbers. Both denominations I have been most involved in the United Methodist and ICFG do. I do remember being surprised that one of my mother’s sorority sisters is the Senior Pastor of a local Missionary Baptist Church, so add them to the list

Actually the Four Square denomination was founded by a woman. Sister Amy McPherson
. I may have the spelling wrong.

 

[Telstar]

well that woman in that picture isn’t dressed in what appears to some as priests type vestments is she, she also isn’t hanging out in a catacombs either

“Marriage in the presence of the bishop”, “Motherhood” and “Praying in heaven with a veil”

“Here the realistic tradition of Roman art, all committed to translating, maybe quickly and easily, a humble and ordinary ‘cursus vitae’ (story of a life) is combined with new figurative fashions, with signs and metaphors that suggest a life and a condition that go beyond the earthly horizon, to see a new and suspended world. (…) The atmosphere is heavenly and, while remaining on a real level with the scenes of motherhood and marriage, it rises in paradise with the central figure-portrait, in an attitude of prayer, in proportions much greater than the other, and thus, symbolically, more significant” (Fabrizio Bisconti)

 

[4Squarebaby]

Actually the Four Square denomination was founded by a woman. Sister Amy McPherson
. I may have the spelling wrong.

Aimee Semple McPherson, or Sister Aimee

 

[Sy_Noe]

I’m Anglican and I wouldn’t recognize her as a priest, either.

OTOH, except in some very rare cases, RCs wouldn’t recognize an Episcopal male in her position as a priest in the sense of this discussion, either.

GKC

I suppose it’s your choice whether to recognize her or not. TEC does. That was part of my point. Romans don’t recognize male Episcopal priests either. But thanks for clearing that up.

 

[PRmerger]

well that woman in that picture isn’t dressed in what appears to some as priests type vestments is she, she also isn’t hanging out in a catacombs either

So where does this math fact come from?

Arms uplifted + long robe (which everyone wore at that time, yes?) = presiding as a priest at Mass

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws....s/2014/05/doesnt_make_any_sense_anchorman.gif

 

[seaton2005]

I’m curious to know how so many churches have decided to allow women pastors. I can find hundreds of reasons not to allow women pastors aside from the obvious biblical passages but I haven’t been able to find reason to allow women pastors.

The following passages are the main ones of interest:

1 Tim 2:12 …11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.…

1 Tim 3:2…1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.…

1 Corinthians 14:34 …33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.…

Goodness! first and foremost - and perhaps most important - discrimination! Sexism! Bias! It’s the right thing to do! They are human beings capable of preaching the word of God. Funny, 40 years ago we were having this discussion about women police officers and firefighters and we now no that they are very effective in public safety professions.

 

[GKC]

I suppose it’s your choice whether to recognize her or not. TEC does. That was part of my point. Romans don’t recognize male Episcopal priests either. But thanks for clearing that up.

Not exactly my choice, no, but you are very welcome.

GKC

 

[PRmerger]

Goodness! first and foremost - and perhaps most important - discrimination! Sexism! Bias! It’s the right thing to do! They are human beings capable of preaching the word of God. Funny, 40 years ago we were having this discussion about women police officers and firefighters and we now no that they are very effective in public safety professions.

This comment shows an impoverished understanding of the priesthood.

The priesthood is not a job. It’s not about what they do that makes them a priest.

For if it were, then, of course, women could do what priests do. And perhaps even better than some men who are priests (namely, the nurturing part that is necessary for being a shepherd).

However, thinking about a priest in the same way that one does a police officer or firefighter demonstrates that one has no idea about the ontological essence of the priesthood.