Depressed About Catholic Church

[AlNg]

As to attorneys making a whole lot of money, unless and until you have either practiced law or done an economic study of the costs incurred in opening the office each and every morning, and a detailed analysis of “net of costs” I am not interested in the discussion.

You might not be interested in the discussion of payment to lawyers, but to the lay Catholic in Los Angeles, one third of $800,000,000 is a lot of money. And that is only one diocese.

And just as a question: How many lawyers do you know that open their offices each and every morning? My experience is that their offices are generally closed on Sunday?

 

[otjm]

Their offices are not open to the public. However if you were to speak with the newer attorneys in some of the medium to large law firms, you would find them putting in 80 hour weeks, which include work on Sundays.

And in the smaller law firms, when a case is coming to trial, the older attorneys are very very likely to be in the office on Sunday in preparation for the court appearance on Monday.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Without documentation, such arguments lack credibility and can be slanderous.

Without documentation, such arguments lack credibility and can be slanderous.

Exactly. And if you don’t tell me WHICH of my arguments in WHICH post, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

As to attorneys making a whole lot of money, unless and until you have either practiced law or done an economic study of the costs incurred in opening the office each and every morning, and a detailed analysis of “net of costs” I am not interested in the discussion.

I hear this argument (that all the lawyers are just “in it” for the money) a lot, about any subject you would like to name.

However, people who say that miss the point: The point is that UNLESS THEY ARE SUED AND LOSE, companies, the government, the church, whoever, are not going to change their ways. The money the lawyers make or the settlements the victims get are incidental. The point of the suits is to stop practices the defendants won’t stop unless they are sued. Sad state of affairs, but that’s what we’ve come to.

 

[TMC]

for all that occurred with and among the Apostles, it pretty much put forth the good, the bad and the ugly.

Yes. I am saying that the Church today should follow that example.

 

[jeannetherese]

Post 74 for you and 45 for the person with whom you are in agreement.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

jeannetherese–

I recently read an article that said that a survivor of McCarrick’s abuse told John Paul II about it and he only said he would pray for him and nothing was ever done after that.

OK, here’s an article from Aug. 19, 2019: Alleged priest sex abuse victim claims he told Pope John Paul II about ordeal in confession - New York Daily News A guy abused by McCarrick since he was 11 told John Paul II in confession, and JP did nothing. There were also articles in the NY Times, NBC News, etc. in mid-August.

Of course you can choose to dismiss the accuser as a liar, as has been the case for the last…fill in your own number. 2,000 years? 200? All I know is the number is too long. I choose to believe the accusers. As everyone should know by this time, studies have shown that there ARE false accusations–4% of the time. So 19 times+ out of 20, the accusations are valid. I’ll take those odds.

If scientists told us that 95% of the time, eating some food would kill us, would we be debating whether or not to eat the food? Would be saying “Well, they haven’t PROVED it kills people 95% of the time…it’s just circumstantial evidence.” Only if we were crazy.

If you think all this perversion is made up, I suggest you read about Mary Johnson. She became a nun at 19. She was in Mother Teresa’s order, and often was the sole companion of Mother Teresa in her travels. Her actual job in the order was to train nuns for the order in Rome. After about 20 years of this, she seduced one of the young nuns in a lesbian affair, and then, just to be even-handed, she had sex with a priest. Then she left the order. She’s actually quite proud of it all–you can read her book, or visit her web site, which advocates some New Age spirituality. I heard her speak in a relatively small audience (100?). It was 95% women in the audience, with a sprinkling of nuns in habits, and they all adored her: “She’s so BRAVE.” Not the adjective I would use. I was, and am, horrified. But I was the only one who was. So is all this stuff made up? Sadly, no.

 

[Diaconia]

A guy abused by McCarrick since he was 11 told John Paul II in confession, and JP did nothing. There were also articles in the NY Times, NBC News, etc. in mid-August.

Of course you can choose to dismiss the accuser as a liar, as has been the case for the last…fill in your own number.

I believe the accuser, but I can’t tell if he told the Pope during a meeting, or during Confession. If during Confession — the priest can’t act on information learned from a penitent.

Deacon Christopher

 

[CRV]

If a priest is in the state of mortal sin, can he still offer the Mass and perform the other sacraments?
According to this article, " the Church has taught that the sacraments act ex opere operato , that is “by the very fact of the action’s being performed.” The efficacy of the sacrament does not depend upon the human minister– whether a bishop, priest, deacon, or layperson– being free of mortal sin and thereby in a state of grace."

" St. Augustine (354-430) … In his In Ioannis evangelium tractatus , he forcefully distinguished the action of Christ versus the action of the minister when performing a sacrament: Christ acts by His power, while the minister acts by his ministry entrusted to him by Christ."

" St. Thomas Aquinas (d. 1224) taught, “The sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God” ( Summa Theologiae , III, 68, 8). … the Council of Trent in its Decree on the Sacraments (1547) declared, “If anyone says that a minister in the state of mortal sin, though he observes all the essentials that belong to the performing and conferring of the sacrament, does not perform or confer the sacrament, anathema sit [“let him be condemned”]. Finally, the Catechism asserts, “From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and His Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister” (#1128)."

CCC #1128 confirms the above last sentence but also more.

 

[Divine3]

Full text of Benedict XVI: ‘The Church and the scandal of sexual abuse’

www.catholicworldreport.com

How we as Catholics live out this reality regarding the blessed sacrament is vital for our lives as Christians. This text of emeritus Pope Benedict also refers to our understanding of the Holy Eucharist or I would say our lack of understanding and lack of faith. Interesting that Benedict would bring this out near the end of his excellent text regarding the evil of abuse etc.

Full text of Benedict XVI: ‘The Church and the scandal of sexual abuse’

www.catholicworldreport.com

 

[Divine3]

Full text of Benedict XVI: ‘The Church and the scandal of sexual abuse’ – Catholic World Report emeritus Pope Benedict brings out this very point in his text regarding abuse. Because in the Western world God is not recognized or is considered dead, we see the church as an institution. Just reading the Catechism of the Catholic church on the Church is a profound enlightenment. Reading the contents: article 9 - The Church in God’s plan, The Church - People of God, The Church - Body of Christ, The Mystery of the Church…etc.
If we as Church truly want a new horizon on what’s going on, reading this text from Pope Benedict is worth ones time, effort and work. When you want the history of why something is happening you go to facts, and reading what was written by the people who made decisions and who had the responsibility to act on these realities. God gave us some great and holy popes. We are not to be spoon fed by today’s secular society or brainwashed by its worldly view of humanity and God. Part of living ones baptism is to take the time and study as well as live out our faith. Jesus is more than a cute saying you have hung up on the wall or found in some of our comics in Casual living in CAF…there is nothing casual about Christ. Jesus is a living relationship, the Son of God who came to save us. We are living in an adulterous generation and have lost our faith.

 

[steve-b]

You c

As I see the continuous reports of child abuse by the clergy come forth, it becomes apparent how prevalent this was for almost the entire 20th century. I have alway defended the church throughout all of these revelations because I believe that Christ is at the center of the church despite the human failings.

But, I fear that I am beginning to become disillusioned. Even before the child abuse scandals, there were popes who had mistresses and pope who persecuted the Jews in Rome among many other scandals. Where does one draw the line between faith in the church and calling out these crimes and sins?

You can’t blame people for leaving their family when their father beats their mother or molests their brother, or has an affair with another woman. Im just so heartbroken over all of the evil within the Church that I am starting to wonder where the holiness is. How can we tell people not to sin when our church has become the prime example of hideous sins? Turning a blind eye to the ugliness of it all is exactly what we have done for the past decades. How are we supposed to move past this?

The “Church” is everyone in it. It is NOT just the clergy. Georgetown Univ, a Jesuit institution, did a survey and found 79% of Catholics don’t attend Mass faithfully on Sunday. To which everyone should say…Holy COW! That means 79% of the Church is objectively speaking in mortal sin. Meaning, They are all one heartbeat away from hell.

Since they (the 79%) aren’t practicing their faith, who is going to reach them when they don’t even show up? The 21% perhaps?

Historically speaking, for 2000 yrs of our history, this isn’t new news. Believe it or not, it’s been worse. So what happens? The good Individuals do what they do best. They live the faith and provide example for the rest. They do what Peter taught HERE so THEY don’t fall like the others did, and maybe by their example the ones who have fallen will learn from the good examples they see, and pick themselves up and return to the faith they disrespected in one way or another

 

[Dan_Defender]

And it should not frighten you that in the Church the bad are many and the good few.

This is very true. Only a few sustain the world and prevent its destruction!

 

[BT3241]

The Church has come along way have faith in the states they have good policy.

Safe Environment trainings taking place in 194 dioceses of the country.Over 2million adults have been trained to recognize the behavior of offenders and what to do about it.
Over 5 million children are being equipped with the skills to help them protect themselves from abuse.All children should be
Background checks are conducted on Church personnel who have contact with children. That is over 2.3 million volunteers,employees, candidates for ordination and clerics.
All dioceses have Codes of Conduct spelling out what is acceptable behavior. This serves to let people know what can and cannot be done as well as letting others know what behavior can be expected. It encourages the reporting of suspicious behavior.
All dioceses have Victim Assistance Coordinators, assuring victims that they will be heard. In 2012, $8,015,842 was spent on therapy for the victims of clergy sexual abuse.
All dioceses have Safe Environment Coordinators who assure the ongoing compliance to the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People.
Bishops are meeting with victims.
Dioceses have Healing Masses, retreats for victim/survivors and other reconciliation events.
There is a Zero Tolerance policy on abusers since 2002. When even a single act of sexual abuse by a priest or deacon is admitted or is established after an appropriate process in accord with canon law, the offending priest or deacon will be removed permanently from ecclesiastical ministry, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state, if the case so warrants
Dioceses require intensive background screening as well as psychological testing for those wishing to enter the seminary.

They are trying hard to rectify the past. Have Faith

 

[OKComputer]

One can have faith in Christ and his Church and still be disappointed in people who do bad things, and expect accountability and demand better.

This might be the best quote I’ve seen about the scandals.

 

[HB11]

thank you for this . I m trying to print it to put in my pocketbook but I am useless with this tech stuff. I will stay , pray and fight for the Faith. Them Bishops screwing up ain’t chasing me away. As for experts thinking this sickness was curable, well , too late to act on that. So sad and upsetting. I would like to see the media get a hold of cases in public schools , Protestant churches, or Yeshivas . Unions too strong for that I guess they wouldn’t dare try.

 

[TotusTuusForever]

Okay, so I’m in much better spirits about the Church now. But, how do I respond when ex-catholic relatives, for example, shame me for remaining Catholic? I feel like being a proud (or more like humble) Catholic these days is like voluntarily wearing a scarlet letter.

 

[QwertyGirl]

1. Set verbal, direct boundaries.

2.Let them know what they are in very explicit terms.

1. Let them know what the consequences will be if they overstepp the boundaries.
2. Then follow through every single time.

Hint: The best consequence may be just leaving and going on your way, or saying goodbye and then hang up the phone.