Depressed About Catholic Church

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farronwolf said:
They moved Priests around
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This excerpt from Google Books includes the footnote for further reading. Prior to the 80’s, the “experts” believed that the abuser could be reformed with proper treatment

books.google.com

Canon Law

Canon Law: A Comparative Study with Anglo-American Legal Theory, by the Reverend John J. Coughlin, explores the canon law of the Roman Catholic Church from a comparative perspective. The Introduction to the book presents historical examples of antinomian and legalistic approaches to canon law...
books.google.com

While the medical and psychological community have gained far greater insight today, we must consider the framework of the age.
farronwolf said:
What about the clergy who were aware of the issues and did not act properly who continued to celebrate Mass?
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The validity of the Sacraments is not dependent on the state of grace/mortal sin of the priest confecting the Sacrament. See above articles that show the belief that the priest must be in a state of grace to confect valid sacraments is actually a heretical belief.
 
Dolphin said:
The Apostles didn’t leave Jesus when Judas betrayed them. We can’t leave Jesus when some of the clergy betray us.
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They also did not excuse Judas’ behavior, or keep him as one of their number.
 
TheLittleLady said:
The validity of the Sacraments is not dependent on the state of grace/mortal sin of the priest confecting the Sacrament. See above articles that show the belief that the priest must be in a state of grace to confect valid sacraments is actually a heretical belief.
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It might be heretical to think that but it seems very logical.

One must not receive the sacrament unless they are in a state of grace, yet one can confect the sacrament and receive the sacrament when not in a state of grace.

Seems completely illogical to me, as if it were presented to exempt clergy from the the Church’s own rules.
 
farronwolf said:
In one camp there is Priests are people too, some have sinned, but it is a minority, we must look at all the good Priests out there and overcome the shortcomings of the Church in recent history. Yes this happens in all walks of life. Very simplified.
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I’d add another: that some fall into the mode of pointing out the misdeeds of people in other walks of life, as if drawing comparisons between bad priests and bad ‘others’ mitigates the priests’ misdeeds.
 
farronwolf said:
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TheLittleLady:
The validity of the Sacraments is not dependent on the state of grace/mortal sin of the priest confecting the Sacrament. See above articles that show the belief that the priest must be in a state of grace to confect valid sacraments is actually a heretical belief.
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It might be heretical to think that but it seems very logical.

One must not receive the sacrament unless they are in a state of grace, yet one can confect the sacrament and receive the sacrament when not in a state of grace.

Seems completely illogical to me, as if it were presented to exempt clergy from the the Church’s own rules.
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It seems illogical, but for it to be otherwise would be to potentially deny deserving people of the sacraments. It would be wrong to deny someone Holy Communion based on a priest not being in a state of grace.
 
farronwolf said:
It might be heretical to think that but it seems very logical.
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It’s not “might”. It is heretical. It has been condemned by the Church and rightfully so.
farronwolf said:
One must not receive the sacrament unless they are in a state of grace, yet one can confect the sacrament and receive the sacrament when not in a state of grace.
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Because receiving a Sacrament and administering it are two different things. The administration of a Sacrament is the administration of grace, grace which ultimately comes from God. It is God who provides the grace and the Sacraments, from the indelible mark of Baptism/Confirmation/Holy Orders, to making a man and woman one in marriage. The idea that the sinfulness the minister could stop God is ridiculous. Even so, if I’m remembering my canon law correctly, a priest in mortal sin is supposed to refrain from celebrating Mass (and thus receiving the Eucharist) unless it’s an emergency. So I’m not sure what you’re getting at right now.
 
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I understand this point. However, the Church teaches that God works through those with blessed hands (priests) and it is not the priest himself doing any special deed. It is Jesus who works to consecrate not the priest. But it does boggle my mind how that happens when the priest is fallen from grace. I guess the consecration does not depend on the soul of the priest but only his body/actions by virtue of his vocation? Can someone correct me if I’m wrong?
 
Pope Paul VI, Credo of the People of God, June 30, 1968:

The Church
  1. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, built by Jesus Christ on that rock which is Peter. She is the Mystical Body of Christ; at the same time a visible society instituted with hierarchical organs, and a spiritual community; the Church on earth, the pilgrim People of God here below, and the Church filled with heavenly blessings; the germ and the first fruits of the Kingdom of God, through which the work and the sufferings of Redemption are continued throughout human history, and which looks for its perfect accomplishment beyond time in glory.(24) In the course of time, the Lord Jesus forms His Church by means of the sacraments emanating from His plenitude.(25) By these she makes her members participants in the Mystery of the Death and Resurrection of Christ, in the grace of the Holy Spirit who gives her life and movement.(26) She is therefore holy, though she has sinners in her bosom, because she herself has no other life but that of grace: it is by living by her life that her members are sanctified; it is by removing themselves from her life that they fall into sins and disorders that prevent the radiation of her sanctity. This is why she suffers and does penance for these offenses, of which she has the power to heal her children through the blood of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
*** = emphasis added

Don’t confuse the Church with Churchmen. The former will last longer than the latter.
 
Fauken said:
Even so, if I’m remembering my canon law correctly, a priest in mortal sin is supposed to refrain from celebrating Mass (and thus receiving the Eucharist) unless it’s an emergency. So I’m not sure what you’re getting at right now.
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Did the Bishops require those accused of wrongdoing to stop celebrating Mass?

Did the Bishops or other Clergy who new about priests with accusations against them and allowed them to continue, stop saying Mass themselves due to their complicity?
 
farronwolf said:
Did the Bishops require those accused of wrongdoing to stop celebrating Mass?

Did the Bishops or other Clergy who new about priests with accusations against them and allowed them to continue, stop saying Mass themselves due to their complicity?
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How do you expect me to be able to answer that question?
 
Any Catholic priest or bishop - be he saint or sinner - validly confects the Holy Eucharist and administers the Sacraments provided he has the intention of doing what the Church does and uses the correct matter and form.
 
As the Lord says, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” That the reprobate would be found within the Church, and even outnumber the elect, was predicted by Him. Our holy faith and Church has sanctified many souls and continues to do so, even though many more have not taken advantage of her gifts.

As St. Gregory the Great commented as follows in a homily on those words of the Lord:
And it should not frighten you that in the Church the bad are many and the good few. For the Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was a figure of this Church, was wide below and narrow above, and at the summit measured but one cubit (Genesis vi, 16). And we are to believe that below were the four-footed animals and serpents, above the birds and men. It was wide where the beasts were, narrow where men lived: for the Holy Church is indeed wide in the number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in those who are spiritual. For where she suffers the morals and beastly ways of men, there she enlarges her bosom. But where she has the care of those whose lives are founded on spiritual things, these she leads to the higher place; but since they are few, this part is narrow. Wide indeed is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction; and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate that leadeth to life; and few there are that find it!
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This does not mean we should be indifferent to evil and injustice–quite the opposite–but it does mean we shouldn’t lose hope when things look overwhelming.
 
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farronwolf said:
It is an easy answer that we all know.

No they did not, which is exactly why the Church is in the state it is.
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And that is a different answer from “they didn’t stop because they’re clergy”. Those who did ignored the laws on the books.
 
www.crisismagazine.com

Uncle Tommy—Happy Martyr, and the Priest We Need

It’s coming up on 20 years since my uncle, Msgr. Thomas Wells, was murdered in his Maryland rectory during a somber late summer night. Deputy state attorney Kay Winfree called the scene spine…
www.crisismagazine.com www.crisismagazine.com

“It’s coming up on 20 years since my uncle, Msgr. Thomas Wells, was murdered in his Maryland rectory during a somber late summer night. Deputy state attorney Kay Winfree called the scene spine-chilling: as gruesome as anything she’d ever encountered.”…

I realize that we need tremendous, faithful and courageous people who don’t give up the ship just because we are in a horrific storm and it takes the gift of fortitude to be those types of people. Because I have meet, holy, and virtuous priests for most of my life, it breaks my heart to see what these Judas priest have done to our honest priest and faithful Catholics.
This story is a perfect example of a reality that takes you right to the foot of the cross…
 
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Amazing. This is one of the things I love about the Catholic tradition. It’s just a pity that it’s so hard to sift through all the mountains of information, for a new convert it’s almost too much.
 
Recent reprots are about one diocese (at least, that is what I have seen).

So do us all a favor, look up how many dioceses there are, and then give a percentage of the Pennsylvania diocese to all dioceses.

I suspect you will find that this diocese is a small % of all.

As to attorneys making a whole lot of money, unless and until you have either practiced law or done an economic study of the costs incurred in opening the office each and every morning, and a detailed analysis of “net of costs” I am not interested in the discussion.

Further, for cases tried, attorneys don’t make a single dime until a jury or a judge decides what the dollar award in the case amounts to. And it is the cases tried which set a standard for considering damages in future cases.
 
Well as far as “keeping him as one of their number” let’s consider a few things.
  1. his relatively quick suicide (if you read the account in the Gospel, it appears he may have died before the crucifixion) sort of settled that issue. He was no longer around to be counted.
  2. He was never written out of the Gospels, which means that he was never written out of the kerygma; the Apostles made no effort to hide, deny, ignore or not report pretty much the whole of the 3 years of Christ’s ministry and process of founding the Church, “warts and all”. for all that occurred with and among the Apostles, it pretty much put forth the good, the bad and the ugly.
 
The clergy are not alone in the ability to receive while not in a state of grace. Priests are not exempted from anything’; they are a conduit - an Alter Christus" through whom the Holy Spirit works. And the Holy Spirit would accomplish absolutely no work at all if it were dependent on the sanctity of the vessel through whom it works.

From Isiah 55: 8-9: For my thought are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. As high above the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.

Yes, I can understand the feeling of a lack of logic. Nor do I say that the feeling is wrong; it is hard to make any sense whatsoever of some things.

And yet God is with us; God is present through the actions of His priests, good, bad or indifferent.

Priests are not exempt, by any stretch of the imagination. They, like you and I, face judgement upon our death. And may God have mercy on us all, as we most definitely need it.
 
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