Design

[tonyrey]

:twocents:

Repentance involves a transformation. There’s a recognition of oneself in the context of the primacy of love in existence and a transcendence of who one was, into someone new, more dedicated to the good. It’s not a matter of making a decision like purchasing a new home or finding a new job, that leaves us unchanged. What it also is not, even in a first step where one may choose to change in fear of the consequences, is act done in self interest. It is an imperative because the good is the good. One repents seeking love. And, on that journey we become Christ-like, Love itself.

:clapping: Love is indeed the ultimate factor in determining our eternal destiny. Everything else - including rules - fades into insignificance.

 

[tonyrey]

It’s easy to ignore responses but to refute them is rather more difficult. The Church teaches that **our ultimate authority **is not the Catechism nor even the Pope but our conscience…

 

[tonyrey]

Which would imply. The catechism doesn’t, obviously, suggest that you ‘play safe’. It tells you in no uncertain terms what you are meant to do and what you are not meant to do and the punishment that you will receive (not might receive or possibly could receive) for transgression.

But I guess that if avoiding hell by repenting a mortal sin is not all-important or essential, then sure, it’s not imperative to do so.

Avoiding hell by repenting a mortal sin is certainly not all-important or even essential. It would amount to putting self-interest before everything else - instead of love for others.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . **our ultimate authority **is not the Catechism nor even the Pope but our conscience…

. . . Love is indeed the ultimate factor in determining our eternal destiny. Everything else - including rules - fades into insignificance.

. . . although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God."

These bear repeating.

Love and conscience are clearly linked, conscience being an awareness guiding us as to the rightness or wrongness of our behaviour, reflecting what we do, in the mirror that is Love.

Conscience cannot judge a person, whether it is ourselves or others. If and when we do, we appropriate God’s perogative. It is only an omniscient and omnibenevolent being who can make such judgements. Catholics adhering to their faith are not Judgementalists.

 

[tonyrey]

These bear repeating.

Love and conscience are clearly linked, conscience being an awareness guiding us as to the rightness or wrongness of our behaviour, reflecting what we do, in the mirror that is Love.

Conscience cannot judge a person, whether it is ourselves or others. If and when we do, we appropriate God’s perogative. It is only an omniscient and omnibenevolent being who can make such judgements. Catholics adhering to their faith are not Judgementalists.

I like the term “Judgementalists” which applies not only to Catholics but to everyone regardless of his or her views on religion.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

These bear repeating.

Love and conscience are clearly linked, conscience being an awareness guiding us as to the rightness or wrongness of our behaviour, reflecting what we do, in the mirror that is Love.

Conscience cannot judge a person, whether it is ourselves or others. If and when we do, we appropriate God’s perogative. It is only an omniscient and omnibenevolent being who can make such judgements. Catholics adhering to their faith are not Judgementalists.

This goes without saying. Yet we have an obligation always to examine our conscience and judge (discern) whether we have sinned and need to repent. This obligation extends to cautioning our brothers and sisters to examine their conscience when we see they are in moral jeopardy, urging them, as John the Baptist did, to repent, be baptized, and be saved. That urging is what the priest does at the sacrifice of each Mass.

 

[Aloysium]

This goes without saying. Yet we have an obligation always to examine our conscience and judge (discern) whether we have sinned and need to repent. This obligation extends to cautioning our brothers and sisters to examine their conscience when we see they are in moral jeopardy, urging them, as John the Baptist did, to repent, be baptized, and be saved. That urging is what the priest does at the sacrifice of each Mass.

 

[tonyrey]

This goes without saying. Yet we have an obligation always to examine our conscience and judge (discern) whether we have sinned and need to repent. This obligation extends to cautioning our brothers and sisters to examine their conscience when we see they are in moral jeopardy, urging them, as John the Baptist did, to repent, be baptized, and be saved. That urging is what the priest does at the sacrifice of each Mass.

Indeed. Charity begins at home and it doesn’t mean being soft on ourselves. Some people seem to take a delight in discussing hell as if they are immune to that possibility yet it is the self-righteous who are most likely to become isolated. Others go to the other extreme by denying hell exists as if we all share the same fate regardless of how we live. They are mistaken because hell - like heaven -begins in this world. If we live for ourselves and regard ourselves as the supreme authority on how we should live we are guilty of intellectual pride - and pride of any description is a pernicious vice which leads to a person’s downfall. It isolates us from others because they realise we regard ourselves as superior and more intelligent than they are.whereas in fact we all have limited knowledge and intelligence – and have the same right to life, liberty and happiness.

At the psychological level we all get what we deserve - which is further evidence that we don’t exist by Chance but by Design. Moral laws are not human conventions but facts about personal development: our virtues bring their own reward and our vices their own punishment. The Greek concept of Nemesis and the Indian doctrine of Karma reflect the fact that there is cosmic justice which applies to every person on this planet or in another form of life…

 

[inocente]

Hang on, hang on. Since you are a contributor to this thread, nothing was said behind your back. There you go again, making false accusations intended to show that Catholics are hopelessly confused and divided on this thread, while it is Protestantism as a whole that is hopelessly confused and divided. No question about that. Even Protestants have to admit it.

Isn’t that the devil’s strategy right from the start? Divide and conquer?

Eve divided from Adam, both conquered.

I have to note your consistent persistence, along with inocente’s, in trying to drive a wedge between Catholics and their catechism. Again, this is the devil’s own strategy, divide and conquer.

I’m not in any current conversation on this thread, including whatever it is you and Brad are discussing, yet this is the second time I’ve had to come back to deal with your uncivil personal remarks. Now, in addition to your conspiracy theory, you’ve likened me to the devil and raised your uncalled-for sectarianism yet again. None of this is dealing with whatever Brad posted, it’s just gratuitous insults. And I wasn’t even debating you!

I won’t let you bully me with your conspiracy theories. I’ll continue to point out when you say things which are the opposite of what the Vatican states.

Now please, no more of this. I’ll see you on another thread.

 

[tonyrey]

A fitting conclusion to this thread is that the divine plan is evident in every aspect of life because evil implies the reality of love just as purposeless events presuppose the existence of purpose! The atheist’s view that everything is ultimately absurd and meaningless is itself absurd in its dependence on reasoning to reach that conclusion. It is not only self-contradictory but also self-destructive…

 

[Vonsalza]

And to answer Tony’s point, the catechism is not a rule book for God. But it does tell Catholics what God expects from them.

I think that’s pretty accurate.

Really focus on what it means as well as what it doesn’t mean. It’s not a bilateral contract.

Excellent posts, Tony, Aloysium and Charlemagne.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Now please, no more of this. I’ll see you on another thread.

And I will expect to see you once again, over and over, trying to use the Catechism and the Popes to refute Catholic thought in this forum. Divide and conquer.

 

[inocente]

And I will expect to see you once again, over and over, trying to use the Catechism and the Popes to refute Catholic thought in this forum. Divide and conquer.

Today on your thread “Why the Left Likes Islam”, an Anglican pointed out that the theme was in opposition to John Paul II and a Catholic pointed out the theme was in opposition to the CCC. It’s not just me saying these things. I see the thread has now been closed.

You brought me back to this thread with personal remarks behind my back. By all means start a thread about your conspiracy theories but it’s off topic here, you’ve been uncivil to me and another poster, I’ve said all I have to say, enough. Please. You have the last word.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Today on your thread “Why the Left Likes Islam”, an Anglican pointed out that the theme was in opposition to John Paul II and a Catholic pointed out the theme was in opposition to the CCC. It’s not just me saying these things. I see the thread has now been closed.

You brought me back to this thread with personal remarks behind my back. By all means start a thread about your conspiracy theories but it’s off topic here, you’ve been uncivil to me and another poster, I’ve said all I have to say, enough. Please. You have the last word.

O.K. I’ll take the last word.

There are many matters upon which Catholics are allowed to agree or disagree. No Catholic in good standing disputes the official teachings of the Church. Unfortunately for Protestants, they have no Catechism nor popes to affirm truth, so we Catholics cannot point to whether you agree or disagree with your own Churches. I guess you all have an advantage of ambiguity there. No way to hoist yourself by your own petard since each of you is a pope unto himself.

It is uncivil of you to persist in your attempts to divide Catholics against each other and then object when someone else persistently calls you on it. Still the same old failed strategy and you will be called on it every time you use it. Get used to it.

How can anyone be remarking anything behind your back when you are constantly visiting this thread?

Since no reason was given for closing the other thread, I don’t see your mind reading of the monitors as a reason. You may have noticed that the thread produced 4 pages of posts in less than one day, clearly an indication that the topic was generating interest, and certainly not all of it against the topic itself.

Just wondering if you will take back the gift of the last word.

 

[inocente]

O.K. I’ll take the last word.

There are many matters upon which Catholics are allowed to agree or disagree. No Catholic in good standing disputes the official teachings of the Church. Unfortunately for Protestants, they have no Catechism nor popes to affirm truth, so we Catholics cannot point to whether you agree or disagree with your own Churches. I guess you all have an advantage of ambiguity there. No way to hoist yourself by your own petard since each of you is a pope unto himself.

It is uncivil of you to persist in your attempts to divide Catholics against each other and then object when someone else persistently calls you on it. Still the same old failed strategy and you will be called on it every time you use it. Get used to it.

How can anyone be remarking anything behind your back when you are constantly visiting this thread?

Since no reason was given for closing the other thread, I don’t see your mind reading of the monitors as a reason. You may have noticed that the thread produced 4 pages of posts in less than one day, clearly an indication that the topic was generating interest, and certainly not all of it against the topic itself.

Just wondering if you will take back the gift of the last word.

I won’t discuss moderator action, but privately I felt your thread was an incitement to racism, a view expressed also by a Muslim on that thread.

Neuroscience indicates that racism is caused by unconscious fear. In the language of design fans, the designer designed Adam to be a racist.

A Tuareg band performing at the Bataclan in Paris a year after the bombing. They’ve performed with the Red Hot Chillie Peppers. This is their latest. The rhythm is camels. The tradition is community. When you know people, they’re not so frightening. The Holy Spirit doesn’t do fear. Get with the program.

 

[Vonsalza]

Just wondering if you will take back the gift of the last word.

Looks like you called it.

 

[tonyrey]

I think that’s pretty accurate.

Really focus on what it means as well as what it doesn’t mean. It’s not a bilateral contract.

Excellent posts, Tony, Aloysium and Charlemagne.

Thank you, Vonsalza. You’ve played an important part in the discussion too.

I don’t apologise for apparently wanting the last word because we never know precisely when the thread will be terminated.

 

[tonyrey]

IBTW It’s quite obvious Design includes free will. The Christian belief that God made us in His image and likeness makes that quite clear unless our Father in heaven didn’t know what He was doing!

 

[Aloysium]

Word

 

[inocente]

Word

True.