Design

[tonyrey]

You must confuse me someone else. I argue that God’s omnipotence COULD allow him to make a much better world. It is tony who argues that due to the “immense complexity” of the world it is impossible to have a world without errors, problems, atrocities. Why don’t you address him?

You have** never** produced detailed evidence for your contention that God’s omnipotence COULD allow him to make a much better world. It is easy to make facile assertions but to justify them is rather more difficult. We are not concerned with vague logical possibilities but the implications of creating a specific universe which offers opportunities for physical, moral, social and spiritual development. Piecemeal improvements are not a valid solution…

 

[tonyrey]

The truth bears repetition when it is ignored:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil.

Only God is perfect in every respect. It is an infantile fantasy to believe finite creatures will always be successful in whatever they do without ever conflicting with one another either deliberately or accidentally. There are bound to be unfortunate coincidences in a universe controlled by natural laws. How could they possibly cater for every contingency when countless events are occurring at every moment of the day and night?

It is ironic that those who don’t believe in God claim to know what God should do and could do! It is not a question of logical possibility but of consistency - as the Catechism has indicated. God can certainly intervene whenever He chooses but to do so would defeat the purpose of creating an orderly, predictable universe. Unlike His critics the Creator is consistent and knows what He is doing. To presume He could have done better is a sign of intellectual pride and vanity…

It is to be expected that those who believe the universe is irrational eventually become irrational themselves. After all we can’t get something for nothing, can we?

 

[Aloysium]

. . .That is sheer nonsense. There is NOTHING in the physical reality which would also be a LOGICAL problem. God’s omnipotence can deal with all the physical problems. The only thing that omnipotence could not deal with are LOGICAL contradictions.

So if God would want to create a world where there are absolutely no diseases, deformities, no earthquakes, no tsunamis, no meteor strikes, God’s omnipotence could achieve that - because none of them are LOGICALLY necessary. Where everyone would be kind, loving and caring, that would be possible, too. And the “free will” could be preserved, too. People simply would not WISH to do harm to others, even though they would be free to do so.

To put it simply, God could create an earthly paradise, if he so desired… after all he allegedly did it in the Garden of Eden. People could be given the freedom to be hateful, mean - as long as they would have the predisposition NOT to act out those possible acts. They simply would NOT WANT to do them.

This is what seems to be beyond the ability of those apologists, I had the (mis)fortune to talk to.

At some point we have to face reality for what it is, and here, it is harsh and filled with discord. Some of us give in to bitterness and anger, usually temporarily as part of a grieving process that ultimately leads to despair. Not quite the end, from that state we bounce back as we surrender to Life, opening us up for Its saving graces. Religion is about transcendence, which Christianity understands can only be achieved through love.

I believe we chose to be here. We want to be gods, and what a true god does is create the good. We do this through our free will. However, that capacity permits us to do the opposite and become demonic. The essential quality of the person Is a self-other connectedness, wherein the give and take determines who we are in relation to others, the world and the Ground of our being. Our doing good is the Way, transforming us step by step into the Good from whom all this springs.

Navigating the turbulence of life, rising above the transient and the illusory, we can come to know existence in its true glory, in the miracle of our very being and filling every corner of the universe - the infinite compassion that holds our lives.

This is how it is, whatever your logic may otherwise deduce.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

At some point we have to face reality for what it is, and here, it is harsh and filled with discord.

But the point is that it does not HAVE TO be that way. If God wanted to, he could have created the “end product” directly. That is what omnipotence is all about. And if all that pain, suffering and misery are not NECESSARY to reach that end product, then they are gratuitous sufferings. Pain, misery, suffering can ONLY be justified, if they are logically necessary to reach that “greater good”.

To spare us of all those sufferings would have been the real manifestation of God’s “love”. No loving parents would allow unnecessary, gratuitous suffering of their children IF they could prevent it.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

You must confuse me someone else. I argue that God’s omnipotence COULD allow him to make a much better world. It is tony who argues that due to the “immense complexity” of the world it is impossible to have a world without errors, problems, atrocities. Why don’t you address him?

There you go again. God didn’t make the world perfect, wah wah wah. Actually he did, but evil entered into the world and mankind embraced it. Why do you keep blaming God? Look around you - it’s people that make the world bad.

 

[Aloysium]

But the point is that it does not HAVE TO be that way. If God wanted to, he could have created the “end product” directly. That is what omnipotence is all about. And if all that pain, suffering and misery are not NECESSARY to reach that end product, then they are gratuitous sufferings. Pain, misery, suffering can ONLY be justified, if they are logically necessary to reach that “greater good”.

To spare us of all those sufferings would have been the real manifestation of God’s “love”. No loving parents would allow unnecessary, gratuitous suffering of their children IF they could prevent it.

The greatest good is being face to face with God.

I have explained my understanding, heavily influenced by Catholic teaching, of suffering.
Pain as it pertains to this world, is like that of childbirth, as we are reborn in the spirit.

Humanity’s central problem is that of sin, which turns joy into horror.
Participating in our creation, it is something we chose at the beginning.

To dream of alternative universes, what could have been or what we think should have been, does nothing to further our understanding of what is.
Accepting who we are and where we are is a first step to getting to where we belong, which I feel I must repeat, we gave away choosing to place ourselves rather than God at the centre of our lives, where is He always.

 

[tonyrey]

.

Vera Ljuba

A superb, impassioned post! Our atheist is presenting us with a valuable service by stimulating us to give of our best. What he ignores in his description of his perfect world is the indivisible nature of a person. We are entities not sets of physical organs. It is a desperate ploy to separate freedom to think from freedom to act:

“People could be given the freedom to be hateful, mean - as long as they would have the predisposition NOT to act out those possible acts.”

Just imagine how frustrated we would feel to be impotent and incapable of expressing our wishes, desires and ambitions. We would end up by committing suicide but no doubt we would also prevented from doing that! Rather than a perfect world it sounds like hell on earth - and a fool’s paradise into the bargain… I eagerly look forward to more suggestions for an earthly paradise, i.e. “more cannon fodder”…

 

[tonyrey]

There you go again. God didn’t make the world perfect, wah wah wah. Actually he did, but evil entered into the world and mankind embraced it. Why do you keep blaming God? Look around you - it’s people that make the world bad.

But the atheist has a better solution. Create do-gooders who are saints, never do anything wrong, love everyone automatically without hesitation and are perfect in every respect…

 

[tonyrey]

But the point is that it does not HAVE TO be that way. If God wanted to, he could have created the “end product” directly. That is what omnipotence is all about. And if all that pain, suffering and misery are not NECESSARY to reach that end product, then they are gratuitous sufferings. Pain, misery, suffering can ONLY be justified, if they are logically necessary to reach that “greater good”.

To spare us of all those sufferings would have been the real manifestation of God’s “love”. No loving parents would allow unnecessary, gratuitous suffering of their children IF they could prevent it.

In other words life on this planet is useless and worthless. We could be created directly in heaven without having to undergo the trials and tribulations of a physical existence. Human parents shouldn’t ever let their children experience pain or hardship but shelter them in every possible way throughout their lives…

 

[CHRISTINE77]

But the atheist has a better solution. Create do-gooders who are saints, never do anything wrong, love everyone automatically without hesitation and are perfect in every respect…

Ha ha - you are right! O how much wrong has been done by do-gooders!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The greatest good is being face to face with God.

I have explained my understanding, heavily influenced by Catholic teaching, of suffering.
Pain as it pertains to this world, is like that of childbirth, as we are reborn in the spirit.

Humanity’s central problem is that of sin, which turns joy into horror.
Participating in our creation, it is something we chose at the beginning.

To dream of alternative universes, what could have been or what we think should have been, does nothing to further our understanding of what is.
Accepting who we are and where we are is a first step to getting to where we belong, which I feel I must repeat, we gave away choosing to place ourselves rather than God at the centre of our lives, where is He always.

So true. This is our world. It has evil in it. We also have a good, loving and merciful God to help us through the evil.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

The greatest good is being face to face with God.

If that is the case, a loving God would create everyone directly into heaven.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

But the atheist has a better solution. Create do-gooders who are saints, never do anything wrong, love everyone automatically without hesitation and are perfect in every respect…

Of course.

In other words life on this planet is useless and worthless. We could be created directly in heaven without having to undergo the trials and tribulations of a physical existence.

Obviously.

Who would want NOT be in heaven, basking in the beatific vision?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Of course.

Obviously.

Who would want NOT be in heaven, basking in the beatific vision?

You probably. You would be so busy criticizing God, you wouldn’t be able to see it!

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

You probably. You would be so busy criticizing God, you wouldn’t be able to see it!

Ah, but allegedly the beatific vision simply overwhelms everything else, it leaves you with your imaginary saliva dripping from your virtual chin. Makes you forget all your troubles. You would even be happy to see your relatives burning in the fire of hell (Schadenfreude, anyone?), if one can accept St. Augustine’s “vision of heaven”.

So that is what you assert about God, who could spare you of this vale of tears, but does not.

 

[tonyrey]

Ah, but allegedly the beatific vision simply overwhelms everything else, it leaves you with your imaginary saliva dripping from your virtual chin. Makes you forget all your troubles. You would even be happy to see your relatives burning in the fire of hell (Schadenfreude, anyone?), if one can accept St. Augustine’s “vision of heaven”.

So that is what you assert about God, who could spare you of this vale of tears, but does not.

Your virulent antagonism explains why you reject the view that love is more precious and significant than anything else. Everything you have written is negative.and destructive, i.e. soul-destroying in every sense.of the term…

 

[Aloysium]

. . . a loving God would create everyone directly into heaven.

Heaven is a state of being wherein we return God’s love for us.
As a Trinity of persons, He is Love eternally, reaching down to us in time.
We cannot be created directly into heaven because it requires our will to get there.
Our will is damaged by sin, so what is necessary through His grace is a transformation of oneself into Christ.
The Way to God involves our giving of ourselves for the good of the other and totally to God, Love itself.
Only our true self can be in paradise, free of attachment to what is transient and illusory.
What is required is our participation in the fulfillment of the graces He bestows on us.

Encounters with God happen all the time.
When we see the dirt, we may be closest to Him. And, it can spur us on to change for the good.
A glimpse of the glory that is His could prove disastrous, believing as we might that it is ours.
Clutching at the pleasure, the imagined potential for fame, fortune and power that such knowledge might bring in this world, ultimately the spiritual pride would cast us into hell - the disconnectedness, lust and ignorance of the self-absorbed ego.

 

[tonyrey]

But the atheist has a better solution. Create do-gooders who are saints, never do anything wrong, love everyone automatically without hesitation and are perfect in every respect…

Of course.The infantile fantasy is a sign of inability to come to grips with reality. Love which is automatic isn't love at all. It's merely a conditioned reflex...

In other words life on this planet is useless and worthless. We could be created directly in heaven without having to undergo the trials and tribulations of a physical existence.

Obviously.

Who would want NOT be in heaven, basking in the beatific vision? Of course.I’m delighted you have agreed life on this planet is useless and worthless. It explains your total negativity with no positive attitudes whatsoever.

NB Nothing shall come of nothing…

BTW History repeats itself! You have failed to respond to my previous post:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil.

Only God is perfect in every respect. It is an infantile fantasy to believe finite creatures will always be successful in whatever they do without ever conflicting with one another either deliberately or accidentally. There are bound to be unfortunate coincidences in a universe controlled by natural laws. How could they possibly cater for every contingency when countless events are occurring at every moment of the day and night?

It is ironic that those who don’t believe in God claim to know what God should do and could do! It is not a question of logical possibility but of consistency - as the Catechism has indicated. God can certainly intervene whenever He chooses but to do so constantly would defeat the purpose of creating an orderly, predictable universe. Unlike His critics the Creator is consistent and knows what He is doing. To presume He could have done better is a sign of intellectual pride and vanity…

It is to be expected that those who believe the universe is irrational eventually become irrational themselves. After all we can’t get something for nothing, can we? :

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Evolution News. Brought to you by the Discovery Institute. A bunch of science denying charlatans whose dishonesty has been widely documented.

I’m sorry but evolution has not been proven. There is no species to species evolution ever documented. It has been shoved down our throats by the “educational system”. It remains a theory, not a fact in any sense of the word. Talk about your Fairy Tales! That’s a modern day whopper!

But we are not supposed to talk about evolution here…

 

[Bradski]

IBut we are not supposed to talk about evolution here…

It’s now allowed. But I really try not to get involved in discussions. Not very succesfully, I’m afraid. Because if someone has wrong information I can’t help but try to correct it.

But let’s just say there’s honest ignorance and then there’s willful ignorance. Luckily for Catholics of both stripes, the church allows you to accept it as a fact (as does the pope and the pontifical acandemy of science)’ or not.