Design

[tonyrey]

After a thousand posts on this thread a feasible blueprint of a world superior to the one we inhabit has still not been presented, a fact which confirms the conclusion that it is an infantile fantasy. Since sceptics have failed to so for thousands of years it confirms Leibniz’s conclusion that this is the best of all possible worlds - where there are sentient persons with free will and the power of self-control. This is not surprising if we believe human intelligence is not in the same category as divine love and wisdom. For the atheist no adequate explanation is possible…

 

[tonyrey]

Indeed. Charity begins at home and it doesn’t mean being soft on ourselves. Some people seem to take a delight in discussing hell as if they are immune to that possibility yet it is the self-righteous who are most likely to become isolated…

To be more precise, it is the self-righteous who are most likely to isolate themselves. If we want to be loved we must make ourselves lovable. Ultimately we all get what we deserve and if we respond to God’s love - rather than choose to be independent - we also receive His gift of life in heaven. The atheist’s morbid view of reality is the result of negativity which ignores the immense value of existence. When we are in love every moment is precious…

Although Jesus had a serious message the outstanding features of His life and teaching were joy and hope.

 

[tonyrey]

For Christians there is overwhelming evidence for Design in the prayer given to us by Jesus: that we hallow God’s name, that His kingdom come and His Will be done on earth as it is in heaven. He promised us He will answer our prayers for help if we forgive others, resist temptation and fight against evil. Our life on this planet is not a meaningless accident but a incalculably precious gift which will culminate in life with Him in heaven If we do our best to love others as He has loved us…

 

[tonyrey]

“Design” is capitalised to distinguish divine activity from all other forms of purposeful activity. It is only right and fitting that it should be pre-eminent just as “Chance” is applied to the hypothesis that everything in the universe is ultimately mindless and meaningless. In practice it is impossible to live without goals or values…

 

[tonyrey]

The supreme absurdity in this thread was the objection that a loving God would not permit - let alone design - the existence of worms which burrow into children’s eyes. No one has explained how they could be prevented from ever doing so. David Attenborough knows nothing about the full implications of his atheistic views…

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Gotta love tony’s conversation with himself when no one cares to engage him. Sometimes he even quotes himself. How sad.

 

[tonyrey]

Gotta love tony’s conversation with himself when no one cares to engage him. Sometimes he even quotes himself. How sad.

What is far more significant is that you have not answered or refuted any of my posts and are only capable of making a sarcastic comment. You have undoubtedly brought atheism into disrepute on this and other threads by revealing its inadequacy and negativity. As Lear remarked, nothing shall come of nothing…

Thank you very much for revealing your intellectual weakness! It would have been wiser not to attack when you are incapable of defence…

How about attempting to answer my last post?

“The supreme absurdity in this thread was the objection that a loving God would not permit - let alone design - the existence of worms which burrow into children’s eyes. No one has explained how they could be prevented from ever doing so. David Attenborough knows nothing about the full implications of his atheistic views…”

 

[tonyrey]

Gotta love tony’s conversation with himself when no one cares to engage him. Sometimes he even quotes himself. How sad.

I’ve just discovered one post to which you deigned to reply:

As this thread is drawing to its close it’s worth repeating that the richness and beauty of Christ’s teaching is that suffering is never wasted.

Oh, the incredible arrogance and hypocrisy of those who are always willing to “endure” the suffering of others! Maybe it would be uncharitable to wish upon them the suffering of those whose pain and suffering they like to “downplay” - as if it did not “really” matter… after all it will be compensated in the afterlife. I wonder what their reaction would be if they would be exposed to the fate of those whose suffering they make light of in such a casual and dismissive manner. It is always the well-fed that have no problem with the starvation of others.

Your post is based on a non sequitur:

To point out that those who suffer in this world will be compensated in the afterlife does not imply that we have never suffered, are not suffering or will not suffer in the future nor does it “downplay” their suffering. On the contrary it consoles the victims and their relatives with a message of hope and consolation whereas you increase their suffering and leave them in despair with your opinion that their pain and misery serve no useful purpose whatsoever. It shows you have no compassion or understanding of their state of mind with your dogmatic rejection of life after death - a mere opinion for which you have no evidence whatsoever.

 

[tonyrey]

A post to which you did not reply:

**Vera_Ljuba **
So what use is the suffering of a kidnapped, raped, tortured, mutilated and murdered child? If it is not “wasted”, then it has a positive outcome. What is it?

None whatsoever as far as a sceptic is concerned. There is no answer to evil in this world - and all the atheist can do is despair and ultimately commit suicide - but for Christians it leads to greater joy in heaven. Jesus liberated us from a purposeless life by transforming suffering into an expression of unselfish love. He chose to be mocked, scourged and crucified to demonstrate that evil doesn’t have the last word. We are not isolated individuals but members of a universal family who are deeply affected by what happens to our brothers and sisters. Our prayers and sacrifices unite us more closely to one other both in this world and the next whereas the monsters who torture and murder children become isolated outcasts in a hell of their own making.

I rather hope that we shall NOT become “Christ-like”. God does not feed the hungry, does not heal the sick, does not protect the downtrodden. We try to do these as much as our abilities can go. As the observation goes: “As long as we have God’s love and compassion who needs hate and cruelty”?

Christ did feed the hungry, heal the sick and condemned in no uncertain terms those who exploited the poor. Not everyone follows His example; otherwise there would be far less misery and suffering in the world. Nor is it true God never intervenes in answer to prayer. It is an infantile fantasy to claim the Creator is guilty of hate and cruelty because it is men, women and even children who deliberately inflict suffering on others. They abuse the power they have been given but not with impunity: since evil is divisive and self-destructive they finish up in a hell of their own making if they don’t atone for their crimes before it is too late…

 

[Aloysium]

Gotta love tony’s conversation with himself when no one cares to engage him. Sometimes he even quotes himself. How sad.

I find his posts explain the Catholic position quite well. They’re thought out and well written, addressing the point of the OP. They are very much appreciated.

There seemed to be no point in posting:











But, I guess what is meant is a joke.
It falls flat for me because the matter is of such great importance - our salvation.

Our fate is decided in this life. It is a matter of what do we do with what we are given, and our coming to know God, who is Love itself. That is what we are designed for.

 

[tonyrey]

I find his posts explain the Catholic position quite well. They’re thought out and well written, addressing the point of the OP. They are very much appreciated.

There seemed to be no point in posting:











But, I guess what is meant is a joke.
It falls flat for me because the matter is of such great importance - our salvation.

Our fate is decided in this life. It is a matter of what do we do with what we are given, and our coming to know God, who is Love itself. That is what we are designed for.

Thank you, Aloysium. :tiphat:

It is sad that people descend to mockery instead of admitting that love is more important and significant than anything else including life on this earth but in their heart of hearts they know it is true. Why else did Jesus let Himself be crucified?

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

I find his posts explain the Catholic position quite well.

Do you really think so? He keeps on asking how could God design/create the world where there are no problems, errors, unintended consequences, etc… He keeps on repeating that the world is just TOO complicated, so this kind of world is beyond the capabilities of God. Is that a correct representation of the Catholic position? I doubt it.

And demands a “blueprint” for such a world. I really don’t think that the Catholic position considers God to be UNABLE to create a world without atrocities, disasters and so on. God is supposed to be omnipotent, which means that God could do anything and everything, except 4-sided triangles and such.

All God would need to do to will these problems away, and they would disappear. How could God get rid of those worms which burrow themselves in the eyes of children? Is he now so impotent that he cannot do even THAT? Well, I think that God is much smarter than tony thinks.

Poor man. He is so pathetic with his non-arguments and the ridiculous overuse of “No reply!”, “No reply!” when people get tired of explaining his errors. In netiquette the abuse of exclamation points is considered rude and shouting. But if you agree with him, that is your business. Now you two can get into another “tennis-match” and keep on praising each other. After all almost no one else will praise you. Aha! I see it started.

 

[Aloysium]

Do you really think so? He keeps on asking how could God design/create the world where there are no problems, errors, unintended consequences, etc… He keeps on repeating that the world is just TOO complicated, so this kind of world is beyond the capabilities of God. Is that a correct representation of the Catholic position? I doubt it.

And demands a “blueprint” for such a world. I really don’t think that the Catholic position considers God to be UNABLE to create a world without atrocities, disasters and so on. God is supposed to be omnipotent, which means that God could do anything and everything, except 4-sided triangles and such.

All God would need to do to will these problems away, and they would disappear. How could God get rid of those worms which burrow themselves in the eyes of children? Is he now so impotent that he cannot do even THAT? Well, I think that God is much smarter than tony thinks.

Poor man. He is so pathetic with his non-arguments and the ridiculous overuse of “No reply!”, “No reply!” when people get tired of explaining his errors. In netiquette the abuse of exclamation points is considered rude and shouting. But if you agree with him, that is your business. Now you two can get into another “tennis-match” and keep on praising each other. After all almost no one else will praise you. Aha! I see it started.

As far as we know, except for this planet, there are no atrocities, no disasters. Stars go supernova, galaxies collide, black holes suck anything close into them, all quite spectacular - no evil anywhere else to be observed in the physical universe. Yes it is possible, but that is not our fate.

In order to have an earth to dwell on, there must be tectonic plates, and hence there will be earthquakes. We will be bodily resurrected, and while I can imagine various scenarios as to how this is, it would be mere speculation. Suffice to say that if we are more grounded in existence itself, we are more real than are material manifestations of being. In that state we are immortal. In order to become more real, we must become more loving. We have to bring about the good by giving ourselves over to it. I’ve seen a lot of people sick, dying, dementing. In the end, what we don’t give over, will be taken from us. When we return to God this life, all our abilities and experiences, which he has granted, they are returned as a sense of peace, purpose and gratitude. This entire process is one of a flowering producing the seed allowing for our rebirth as completely eternal beings. We could have had this at the beginning, but we chose otherwise. Now we have a second chance in this world.

The loa loa nematode that causes filariasis adapted itself to living in the human organism through the same processes that are involved in producing the multitude of living forms on the planet. For it not to exist, would involve the elimination of this diversity. We cannot know to what extent God has intervened so that all humanity may not be infected and go blind, but this illness is permitted to exist because it offers us a choice to make as to whether we help one another. Humans are the primary reservoir and it is treatable medically and surgically. Another opportunity to do good and be transformed into goodness.

We were designed to think and argue, so that we can grow in knowledge and wisdom. As to your last paragraph, the only response that seems appropriate is “no reply”.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Do you really think so? He keeps on asking how could God design/create the world where there are no problems, errors, unintended consequences, etc… He keeps on repeating that the world is just TOO complicated, so this kind of world is beyond the capabilities of God. Is that a correct representation of the Catholic position? I doubt it.

And demands a “blueprint” for such a world. I really don’t think that the Catholic position considers God to be UNABLE to create a world without atrocities, disasters and so on. God is supposed to be omnipotent, which means that God could do anything and everything, except 4-sided triangles and such.

All God would need to do to will these problems away, and they would disappear. How could God get rid of those worms which burrow themselves in the eyes of children? Is he now so impotent that he cannot do even THAT? Well, I think that God is much smarter than tony thinks.

Poor man. He is so pathetic with his non-arguments and the ridiculous overuse of “No reply!”, “No reply!” when people get tired of explaining his errors. In netiquette the abuse of exclamation points is considered rude and shouting. But if you agree with him, that is your business. Now you two can get into another “tennis-match” and keep on praising each other. After all almost no one else will praise you. Aha! I see it started.

Wow what a poisonous post! All you ever argue is why can’t God make the world perfect? You are a broken record at most.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

All you ever argue is why can’t God make the world perfect?

You must confuse me someone else. I argue that God’s omnipotence COULD allow him to make a much better world. It is tony who argues that due to the “immense complexity” of the world it is impossible to have a world without errors, problems, atrocities. Why don’t you address him?

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

As far as we know, except for this planet, there are no atrocities, no disasters. Stars go supernova, galaxies collide, black holes suck anything close into them, all quite spectacular - no evil anywhere else to be observed in the physical universe. Yes it is possible, but that is not our fate.

In order to have an earth to dwell on, there must be tectonic plates, and hence there will be earthquakes. We will be bodily resurrected, and while I can imagine various scenarios as to how this is, it would be mere speculation. Suffice to say that if we are more grounded in existence itself, we are more real than are material manifestations of being. In that state we are immortal. In order to become more real, we must become more loving. We have to bring about the good by giving ourselves over to it. I’ve seen a lot of people sick, dying, dementing. In the end, what we don’t give over, will be taken from us. When we return to God this life, all our abilities and experiences, which he has granted, they are returned as a sense of peace, purpose and gratitude. This entire process is one of a flowering producing the seed allowing for our rebirth as completely eternal beings. We could have had this at the beginning, but we chose otherwise. Now we have a second chance in this world.

The loa loa nematode that causes filariasis adapted itself to living in the human organism through the same processes that are involved in producing the multitude of living forms on the planet. For it not to exist, would involve the elimination of this diversity. We cannot know to what extent God has intervened so that all humanity may not be infected and go blind, but this illness is permitted to exist because it offers us a choice to make as to whether we help one another. Humans are the primary reservoir and it is treatable medically and surgically. Another opportunity to do good and be transformed into goodness.

We were designed to think and argue, so that we can grow in knowledge and wisdom. As to your last paragraph, the only response that seems appropriate is “no reply”.

So you support tony, who argues that God is too impotent to make a better world. Diversity is not desirable for its own sake. And to say that blindness is “preferable” because it allows us to practice being helpful… all I can say what I said before: “Don’t be so dismissive when it comes to the plight of others”.

 

[tonyrey]

Vera_Ljuba

Do you really think so? He keeps on asking how could God design/create the world where there are no problems, errors, unintended consequences, etc… He keeps on repeating that the world is just TOO complicated, so this kind of world is beyond the capabilities of God. Is that a correct representation of the Catholic position? I doubt it.

And demands a “blueprint” for such a world. I really don’t think that the Catholic position considers God to be UNABLE to create a world without atrocities, disasters and so on. God is supposed to be omnipotent, which means that God could do anything and everything, except 4-sided triangles and such.

All God would need to do to will these problems away, and they would disappear. How could God get rid of those worms which burrow themselves in the eyes of children? Is he now so impotent that he cannot do even THAT? Well, I think that God is much smarter than tony thinks.

Poor man. He is so pathetic with his non-arguments and the ridiculous overuse of “No reply!”, “No reply!” when people get tired of explaining his errors. In netiquette the abuse of exclamation points is considered rude and shouting. But if you agree with him, that is your business. Now you two can get into another “tennis-match” and keep on praising each other. After all almost no one else will praise you. Aha! I see it started.
Wow what a poisonous post! All you ever argue is why can’t God make the world perfect? You are a broken record at most.

You’ve hit the nail on the head, Christine! People often accuse others of their own defects and mistakes which gives us the opportunity to expose the absurdity of their opinions:

He keeps on asking how could God design/create the world where there are no problems, errors, unintended consequences, etc… He keeps on repeating that the world is just TOO complicated, so this kind of world is beyond the capabilities of God. Is that a correct representation of the Catholic position? I doubt it.

You have revealed how little you know about Catholicism:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil.

And demands a “blueprint” for such a world. I really don’t think that the Catholic position considers God to be UNABLE to create a world without atrocities, disasters and so on. God is supposed to be omnipotent, which means that God could do anything and everything, except 4-sided triangles and such.

Non sequitur. Only God is perfect in every respect. It is an infantile fantasy to believe finite creatures will always be successful in whatever they do without ever conflicting with one another either deliberately or accidentally. There are bound to be unfortunate coincidences in a universe controlled by natural laws which cannot possibly cater for every contingency when countless events occurring at every moment of the day and night

All God would need to do to will these problems away, and they would disappear. How could God get rid of those worms which burrow themselves in the eyes of children? Is he now so impotent that he cannot do even THAT? Well, I think that God is much smarter than tony thinks.

It is ironic that a person who doesn’t believe in God claims to know what God should do and could do! It is not a question of logical possibility but of consistency - as the Catechism has indicated. God can certainly intervene whenever He chooses but to do so would defeat the purpose of creating an orderly, predictable universe. Unlike His critics the Creator is consistent and knows what He is doing. To presume He could have done better is a symptom of intellectual pride and vanity…

Poor man. He is so pathetic with his non-arguments and the ridiculous overuse of “No reply!”, “No reply!” when people get tired of explaining his errors. In netiquette the abuse of exclamation points is considered rude and shouting. But if you agree with him, that is your business. Now you two can get into another “tennis-match” and keep on praising each other. After all almost no one else will praise you. Aha! I see it started.

Once again the critic is accusing another person of his own faults and defects. He has produced no positive reasons for his views whatsoever - as Christine pointed out:

“All you ever argue is why can’t God make the world perfect?”

Now he has contradicted himself by asserting:

“All God would need to do to will these problems away, and they would disappear… Well, I think that God is much smarter than tony thinks.”

It is to be expected that those who believe the universe is irrational eventually become irrational themselves. After all we can’t get something for nothing, can we?

 

[Aloysium]

So you support tony, who argues that God is too impotent to make a better world. Diversity is not desirable for its own sake. And to say that blindness is “preferable” because it allows us to practice being helpful… all I can say what I said before: “Don’t be so dismissive when it comes to the plight of others”.

I am actually somewhat visually impaired. I was pretty much completely blind for a while following a surgical misadventure that collapsed the eyeball of my good eye, and filled its anterior chamber with blood. My “winking eye” is pretty much useless. As the mud cleared the world was a funhouse mirror for a rather long time. It made me appreciate the visual world and how the entire complexity of vision arises from so little “(name removed by moderator)ut”. For the most part I don’t even realize I see so poorly until someone or some situation forces me to focus. I thank God for this miracle that enables me to more than get by. I am not going to get into it further because there are so many who face greater hardships, but the adversities that I have encountered, and were mitigated by God’s grace, have enabled me to see far more than I ever could through what were once healthy eyes.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

I am actually somewhat visually impaired.

I am sorry to hear that. If you say that your problem gives an opportunity to others to exhibit kindness and helpfulness toward you, AND that is a sufficient justification for your impairment, that is your business. But you cannot speak for others.

You said: “In order to have an earth to dwell on, there must be tectonic plates, and hence there will be earthquakes.” That is sheer nonsense. There is NOTHING in the physical reality which would also be a LOGICAL problem. God’s omnipotence can deal with all the physical problems. The only thing that omnipotence could not deal with are LOGICAL contradictions.

So if God would want to create a world where there are absolutely no diseases, deformities, no earthquakes, no tsunamis, no meteor strikes, God’s omnipotence could achieve that - because none of them are LOGICALLY necessary. Where everyone would be kind, loving and caring, that would be possible, too. And the “free will” could be preserved, too. People simply would not WISH to do harm to others, even though they would be free to do so.

To put it simply, God could create an earthly paradise, if he so desired… after all he allegedly did it in the Garden of Eden. People could be given the freedom to be hateful, mean - as long as they would have the predisposition NOT to act out those possible acts. They simply would NOT WANT to do them.

This is what seems to be beyond the ability of those apologists, I had the (mis)fortune to talk to.

 

[tonyrey]

So you support tony, who argues that God is too impotent to make a better world. Diversity is not desirable for its own sake. And to say that blindness is “preferable” because it allows us to practice being helpful… all I can say what I said before: “Don’t be so dismissive when it comes to the plight of others”.

:clapping: A deeply moving account of your disability and suffering which exposes the absurdity and insensitivity of the remark “Don’t be so dismissive when it comes to the plight of others”. The assertion “And to say that blindness is “preferable” because it allows us to practice being helpful” is also a distortion of the truth. It is not preferable to be blind for any reason whatsoever because it is one of the worst handicaps a person has to endure. Yet Jesus has shown us that even the evils cited by atheists as a disproof of God’s love can be transformed into a means of developing nobility of character. Those who have never suffered are far more likely to become self-centred and incapable of compassion because they have never experienced hunger or hardship. It is the worst form of defeatism to tell others pain and misery are utterly useless, serve no useless purpose
and reveal the ultimate futility of a life where there is often no answer to injustice.