DESPERATE HELP - holy days of obligation

[slanzill]

LateranBasilica you’re missing the point. Yes, of course I get masses said for personal intentions of those who have passed on, but I don’t tell people they HAVE TO GO OR ELSE. It’s not the reason for offering the masses on Holy days, but rather being told that we are obligated to attend on those days.

 

[Socrates92]

this means that the church is telling me that if I do not feel like going to mass for no good reason on “Mary’s Feast Day” Jan. 1st. that I am going to hell

Incorrect. Your feelings are irrelevant when it comes to whether or not something is a sin. Not feeling like going to mass is not a sin. It is only a sin if you choose not to go on a day of obligation.

 

[slanzill]

Okay, well after some research I’ve found some very interesting information. This holy day of obligation business and being in mortal sin is a total Smoke Screen.

DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in Canada only have 2 holy days of obligation?
DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in Hong Kong only have 1 holy day of obligation?
DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in Hawaii only have 2 holy days of obligation?
DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in England only have 2 holy days of obligation?

and the list goes on and on. So I am told as a Catholic that if I live in Florida and do not attend mass on August 15th (the assumption) that I am in the state of mortal sin (which can of course send me to hell)…BUT IF I LIVE IN HAWAII or Canada, etc…, then it’s okay not to go to mass on that day. What on earth does my GEOGRAPHY have to do with being in Mortal Sin and my salvation???

This is LAUGHABLE!!! HDO are created by Bishops (who are not infallible like the Pope). If this was a directive from the Pope, then it would be UNIVERSAL and everyone would have to same stipulations. The Catholic Church cannot tell someone they committing a mortal sin by not attending a certain mass but only if you live in certain areas. That makes no sense at all and how they get away with attaching the words “Mortal Sin” for not attending these masses is very disheartening to scare people into attending mass.

In light of finding out that Catholics around the word have different requirements tells me more than ever that there is no possible way it can be a mortal sin.

A sin is a sin is a sin. Doesn’t matter where you live or where you are. Impossible to be a sin in one place and not the other. Just ridiculous.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

A sin is a sin is a sin. Doesn’t matter where you live or where you are. Impossible to be a sin in one place and not the other. Just ridiculous.

Actually that is not true. Bishops/The Church has the ability to bind or loose holy days of obligation. It’s like how Eastern Catholic priests can be married but western ones cannot (unless they were already an Anglican priest, for example). It seems like the root problem may be that you have a problem with the God-given authority of the church and it’s ability to change or impose discipline.

 

[1ke]

DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in Canada only have 2 holy days of obligation?
DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in Hong Kong only have 1 holy day of obligation?
DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in Hawaii only have 2 holy days of obligation?
DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in England only have 2 holy days of obligation?

Yes.

That doesn’t change that you have specific holy days where YOU live.

So I am told as a Catholic that if I live in Florida and do not attend mass on August 15th (the assumption) that I am in the state of mortal sin (which can of course send me to hell)…BUT IF I LIVE IN HAWAII or Canada, etc…, then it’s okay not to go to mass on that day.

Yep.

What on earth does my GEOGRAPHY have to do with being in Mortal Sin and my salvation???

It’s your obedience to the lawful authority over you that is in question.

Questions you still haven’t answered yet such as:

Do you abstain from meat on Friday of Lent and fast and abstain on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday? Why or why not?

Do you understand it is not “missing mass” that is the sin, but rather disobedience to the authority over you (your bishop).

Do you reject that the Church has authority to bind and loose?

 

[1ke]

A sin is a sin is a sin. Doesn’t matter where you live or where you are. Impossible to be a sin in one place and not the other.

Yes the sin of disobedience to the lawful authority over you is in fact grave matter wherever you go.

Just ridiculous.

This thread is ridiculous.

 

[humbleseeker]

I will NEVER turn my back on His church. Catholic through and through.

I do believe the church is wrong in this one instance,

The Catholic Church cannot tell someone they committing a mortal sin

Something isn’t adding up here…

Okay, well after some research I’ve found some very interesting information.

I would guess most “devout” Catholics already know about this information and have no objection to submit to the authority of the church.

 

[slanzill]

Jesus Christ is my authority and rules put in place by the Pope to whom he left the keys to the kingdom to. Not a bunch of bishops sitting around a table trying to change things up.

 

[1ke]

Different rules is one thing and the church’s authority is one thing…

Actually they are the same thing.

HOWEVER telling someone that they will GO TO HELL for not doing something that is not required of everyone is wrong.

Good thing no one is telling anyone that.

Obedience is required of everyone.

the only one who is infallible is the Pope…not the bishops.

No one has claimed otherwise. Also no one has claimed that HDOs are doctrinal. They are disciplinary in nature and can change.

If your bishop tells you that you have to start robbing banks to fill up the collection basket and that it’s now an authorative rule of the church, I guess you’ll start doing that as well “because the church says so”.

I think we both know that isn’t true. Mainly because bishops don’t make laws that violate one of the Ten Commandments.

Wow, this just blows me away that you would do something that clearly doesn’t make any inkling of sense just because you’re told to do it.

It makes perfect sense to me.

The Church establishes HDOs, and bishops may adjust them with permission of the Pope.

Now, please answer my question: do you follow the fast and abstinence laws of the Church or not?

 

[1ke]

Jesus Christ is my authority and rules put in place by the Pope to whom he left the keys to the kingdom to

He gave binding and loosing to all of the Apostles in addition to giving the keys to the Pope.

And the Pope approves all the HDOs worldwide, so— the bishops haven’t done anything apart from the Pope.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

None of this is going on without the Pope’s permission…

 

[slanzill]

1ke yes they most definitely are telling people that. They are telling us that if we do not go to mass on every holy day of obligation we are in mortal sin. if you know the teachings of the church you would know that if you are in mortal sin that you will go to hell if you don’t get to confession on time.

and I do know that rules and the church’s authority are the same thing. I never said they were different so don’t misconstrue my wording.

Yes Bishop’s clearly do make laws that violate the ten commandments if they tell certain people that they are in the state of mortal sin for missing Mass on December 8th. without trying to sound disrespectful that’s a lie. Something cannot be a mortal sin in one place and not a mortal sin and another. if a bishop wants to offer certain masses in one area of the world and not other areas of the world there’s nothing wrong with that. But telling somebody that they are obligated or else they are in mortal sin. No way!! My drastic analogy about robbing banks was made to make a point that the only response I’m getting is because the church says so and they have the authority. which tells me that you would do anything the church tells you to do just because they have the authority.

to the best of my knowledge I do follow the fast and the abstinence laws of the church.

 

[slanzill]

I’m sure the Pope knows about it but it’s not something that came down as an instruction from God using the Pope’s infallibility to create a message to us. I’m not saying the bishops are doing it on the sneak.

 

[slanzill]

Again for the millionth time. There’s nothing wrong with having these holy days and special masses. I’m not debating that at all. It’s sticking the word obligated and mortal sin in there that’s a problem.

 

[1ke]

They are telling us that if we do not go to mass on every holy day of obligation we are in mortal sin.

This isn’t true. When one has a good reason or when one is unable to go, there is no obligation. Also when one is dispensed by one’s pastor.

The Church tells us we must attend Sundays as HDOs and other feast days as determined by our
Bishop’s conference.

if you know the teachings of the church you would know that if you are in mortal sin that you will go to hell if you don’t get to confession on time.

This isn’t entirely true. If one has contrition and intends to confess but is unable to, then contrition supplies what it needed.

Of course God can also work extra-sacramentally.

Yes Bishop’s clearly do make laws that violate the ten commandments if they tell certain people that they are in the state of mortal sin for missing Mass on December 8th.

Actually, this is an application of the third commandment, not a violation of it.

Something cannot be a mortal sin in one place and not a mortal sin and another.

Disobeying the legitimate authority of the bishop is a sin in every place.

if a bishop wants to offer certain masses in one area of the world and not other areas of the world there’s nothing wrong with that. But telling somebody that they are obligated or else they are in mortal sin. No way!!

Oh, you’ve misunderstood. The universal laws of the Church establish the universal holy days. The holy days are the same everywhere.

Some bishops conferences have asked to, and been allowed to, dispense the obligation. So in some places, they’ve relaxed the universal law is the Church, not established a new law.

Now if you want to talk about patron feast days that are not universal, such as St Patrick in Ireland, that’s a different thing, although still approves by the Pope.

to the best of my knowledge I do follow the fast and the abstinence laws of the church

But why? Why are you OK doing that so as to remain in a state of grace but not another discipline of the Church?

Because these also vary from place to place by the authority of the bishop.

Abstaining from meat is required every Friday in England but only during Lent in the US. So, another example is authority that the bishops have and the obligation that Catholics have.

My drastic analogy about robbing banks was made to make a point that the only response I’m getting is because the church says so and they have the authority.

You analogy doesn’t hold, because the Church’s own teaching precludes it.

But yes, positive laws are definitely disciplines of the Church that the bishops have the authority to enact.

 

[1ke]

. It’s sticking the word obligated and mortal sin in there that’s a problem

You are obligated to fast and abstain.

You are obligated to marry according to the laws of the Church.

You are obligated to the Easter Duty.

You are obligated to attend mass on Sundays.

Why are you concerned about the Church’s ability to obligate you on HDOs but not it’s ability to obligate you elsewhere?

You either believe in the authority of the Church or you don’t.

 

[AngelaMarie]

Therefore, whether you or I or anyone else on this forum thinks there should be Holy Days of Obligation at all, or whether we think there should be ones for Mary and All Saints or not, it’s not our call. The Magisterium sets the Holy Days and we’re obligated to show up. You don’t get a vote.

^^^^This. We don’t get a vote. It’s not our decision to make. The Kingdom of God is a monarchy, not a democracy.

 

[AngelaMarie]

You either believe in the authority of the Church or you don’t.

^^^^This. It’s a decision we have to make. Do we believe it, or not.

 

[cathjuche]

Okay, well after some research I’ve found some very interesting information. This holy day of obligation business and being in mortal sin is a total Smoke Screen.

DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in Canada only have 2 holy days of obligation?
DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in Hong Kong only have 1 holy day of obligation?
DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in Hawaii only have 2 holy days of obligation?
DID YOU KNOW that Catholics in England only have 2 holy days of obligation?

and the list goes on and on. So I am told as a Catholic that if I live in Florida and do not attend mass on August 15th (the assumption) that I am in the state of mortal sin (which can of course send me to hell)…BUT IF I LIVE IN HAWAII or Canada, etc…, then it’s okay not to go to mass on that day. What on earth does my GEOGRAPHY have to do with being in Mortal Sin and my salvation???

This is LAUGHABLE!!! HDO are created by Bishops (who are not infallible like the Pope). If this was a directive from the Pope, then it would be UNIVERSAL and everyone would have to same stipulations. The Catholic Church cannot tell someone they committing a mortal sin by not attending a certain mass but only if you live in certain areas. That makes no sense at all and how they get away with attaching the words “Mortal Sin” for not attending these masses is very disheartening to scare people into attending mass.

In light of finding out that Catholics around the word have different requirements tells me more than ever that there is no possible way it can be a mortal sin.

A sin is a sin is a sin. Doesn’t matter where you live or where you are. Impossible to be a sin in one place and not the other. Just ridiculous.

Late response, but this is a question I struggled with for a long time. I honestly wilfully skipped a HDO (which I deeply regret) because of this, purely because I was upset. But as others have pointed out, it’s because by being obedient to the Church we are being obedient to God. The church is which God the Holy Spirit works through. I think it’s more that and less so God being offended because a council said so. It’s also really disheartening seeing how you’re typing, in all caps calling how the church works laughable. The bishops have this legitimate authority, as the others have explained in much and as much as I understand your qualm with this, just trying to argue against this is really incoherent if you work under Catholic beliefs.

 

[AngelaMarie]

I would add, that if is a real problem for the OP, they need to examine their conscience just how devout they really are.