Despite Catholic teachings, women religiously take the pill

[rlg94086]

Other posters on other threads, here or on phat, commented on how difficult it was to receive the NFP instruction–one saying that it cost $50 and was offered only in another city. I have no personal experience. I do know that NFP is of no value in a variety of medical conditions.

You don’t “know” that. It is your opinion.

As far as the costs and availability, there is no way to comment on that as it is too area dependent. Are you thinking that $50 is more expensive than ongoing use of the pill or other contraceptives?

 

[rlg94086]

It is not the same. Few people discuss how many houses they ought to own or how many autos.

No, they don’t but they should. In regards to selfishness, it is the same. If your reason for limiting kids is because you would prefer to travel the world, buy a bigger house, etc., then you are basically discussing your lifestyle.
Rich Olszewski:

But, where is the bar set? How ill does a woman have to be before her health is a factor in deciding not to have another child? How much of a mental problem that she might have would advise against another child? What’s the dollar amount below which another child can’t be afforded? How serious must a previous child’s infirmity be to make caring for a new child too difficult?(Note that I said “another,” not “a.”)

There aren’t set bars. I realize that frustrates people. That’s why it requires prayer and priestly counsel. Certainly, someone can therefore try to fool themselves and God by saying…well, I get headaches when I’m pregnant, so I want to avoid that…but I don’t think that will work.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

There aren’t set bars. I realize that frustrates people. That’s why it requires prayer and priestly counsel.

I’m not so sure that the average parish priest is that good an advisor on such matters.

Certainly, someone can therefore try to fool themselves and God by saying…well, I get headaches when I’m pregnant, so I want to avoid that…but I don’t think that will work.

But, that’s obvious. I meant the degree of actual physical illness or infirmity that would set the bar. Does the woman have a mental condition that is controllable? How serious must it be before it is better that she not have children? If a husband comes down with something that makes it difficult or impossible to make a livelihood, how poor do they have to be before it would be better to postpone or even not have another child?

The trouble with prayer and priestly counsel is that it doesn’t necessarily give the right answer. “We prayed, Father, and we think the Holy Spirit would not be against our not having another child.” “Understandably, you are good Catholics, I’ve known you both for years, and I think it’s the right decision.”

If you think that doesn’t go on, think again. My wife knew a priest who quit as the Diocesan person who handled annulments. He said that he’d never heard so much lying in his life, and had to give the job up. How much different is that from counseling prospective parents? There are Flexible Freddies among the clergy as well.

 

[edwest2]

Neither have I…what’s in the bedroom…stays in the bedroom…it’s nunya…as in…none of your business. But sadly there are some that are so paranoid of some people on this board “think”…they freak out and run to forums like this…where “ordinary” human beings “attempt” to tell them what God thinks.

This is Catholic Answers, not Catholic Speculations. Some of us here are only offering what the Catholic Church teaches. Some here think that it’s none of your business. Well, what’s the point of posting anything?

God bless,
Ed

 

[rlg94086]

I’m not so sure that the average parish priest is that good an advisor on such matters.

But, that’s obvious. I meant the degree of actual physical illness or infirmity that would set the bar. Does the woman have a mental condition that is controllable? How serious must it be before it is better that she not have children? If a husband comes down with something that makes it difficult or impossible to make a livelihood, how poor do they have to be before it would be better to postpone or even not have another child?

The trouble with prayer and priestly counsel is that it doesn’t necessarily give the right answer. “We prayed, Father, and we think the Holy Spirit would not be against our not having another child.” “Understandably, you are good Catholics, I’ve known you both for years, and I think it’s the right decision.”

If you think that doesn’t go on, think again. My wife knew a priest who quit as the Diocesan person who handled annulments. He said that he’d never heard so much lying in his life, and had to give the job up. How much different is that from counseling prospective parents? There are Flexible Freddies among the clergy as well.

Seriously, Rich…you would accept a set bar? If one was set, people would complain “what about the couple who is dealing with x?” What if y may get worse? The only set bars are de fide teachings. Contraception is a sin. Abortion is a sin.

I am pretty disheartened to read that you expect certainty from prayer and counsel. With every decision in life, we must rely on prayer and counsel. With every decision based on prayer and counsel, the right answer may not be obtained. We have to do our best and accept the results. This is why we must trust in God, follow the teaching of the Church and act according to our well-formed conscience.

 

[edwest2]

Otherwise, the woman has to be prepared to be a brood mare? This implies that a healthy, mentally sound, financially secure couple isn’t to have sexual intercourse except with the aim of having children - though they can space them “for just reasons” - and if the first child comes along when she’s 23 and the last when she’s 43, that’s just what she has to accept??

That is the third most ridiculous post I’ve ever read here. Where is the man, huh? It’s a couple, right? Don’t put all this on the woman. There is a simple concept called self control – apparently, no one has heard of it or some just want to ignore it.

Both parties get to choose. The given reason for most abortions is contraceptive failure.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

My understanding is that Catholics use contraception at about the same rate as the general community. At least their birth rates do not differ significantly from the general community. This will vary, of course, depending on ethnic and social background. Immigrants, illegal or otherwise, have higher birth rates initially, but these approach that of the general population within one generation. Often after one unplanned birth, women employ contraception.

Half of unplanned pregnancies end in abortion. Many women pay for their own abortions. This is why sex education and contraception, in addition to abstinence, are so important.

Sex education has been a huge failure. Prior to 1960, there were only two STDs of serious concern, today there are a lot more. If people, men and women, stopped listening to idiots on TV, radio, and in the movies, they might realize that self control is a far better contraceptive than using anything artificial. The fact is, too many have been brainwashed into believing they just can’t control themselves. Who decides when you have sex?

God bless,
Ed

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I am pretty disheartened to read that you expect certainty from prayer and counsel. With every decision in life, we must rely on prayer and counsel. With every decision based on prayer and counsel, the right answer may not be obtained. We have to do our best and accept the results.

Which is to say that we’re left with uncertainty, and perhaps not the right answer. I’m not challenging you, but “do our best and accept the results” isn’t saying all that much.

 

[anode]

You don’t “know” that. It is your opinion.

As far as the costs and availability, there is no way to comment on that as it is too area dependent. Are you thinking that $50 is more expensive than ongoing use of the pill or other contraceptives?

Irregular periods make it difficult to follow so-called NFP. So do temperatures and cervical mucus that won’t cooperate.

As far as costs go, children are the most expensive of all.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

That is the third most ridiculous post I’ve ever read here. Where is the man, huh? It’s a couple, right? Don’t put all this on the woman. There is a simple concept called self control – apparently, no one has heard of it or some just want to ignore it.

The third most ridiculous post you’ve ever read? I don’t know if I should take that as a compliment. Maybe I ought to.

Sorry if I came off sounding like a sexist, which I am not - in any way. Of course, it’s not up to the woman alone. I find despicable men who think that their wives are there to serve them - in the kitchen, in the laundry and in the bedroom. I knew a fellow in the Air Force who seemed proud of the fact that the kitchen table had also been a venue for sex. I was appalled that the Catholic, by the way, husband was unable to stem his lust long enough to afford his wife some dignity. He wouldn’t have been allowed to do that even in a brothel.

So, yes, you have it right. It’s not all on the woman, who has a right to say no, but also on the husband, who can also say no, and who ought to be mindful of the proper homage that he owes his wife. My wife and I have done some pretty wild things when we were younger, but never without regard for what either of us was willing to do.

 

[archangel04]

Your personal insult noted.

Your uncharitable remark noted.

How nice.

Oh, did I imply that the Pope is a stand-up comic? Please show me the quotation from my post.

I can’t agree. There are any number of men holding high office who are without perspective and scope. Just ask some of the conservatives on this Forum if they believe that our President is a man with perspective and scope.

Your personal insult noted.

Go ask them.

Your personal insult noted.

How so? You know nothing of what my life is like.

The curse of the educated - the inability to look around them.

Have to say that’s a weak defence.

 

[anode]

Sex education has been a huge failure. Prior to 1960, there were only two STDs of serious concern, today there are a lot more. If people, men and women, stopped listening to idiots on TV, radio, and in the movies, they might realize that self control is a far better contraceptive than using anything artificial. The fact is, too many have been brainwashed into believing they just can’t control themselves. Who decides when you have sex?

God bless,
Ed

As a matter of fact, one of the main achievements in recent years, both in sex education and in so-called ‘feminist’ consciousness-raising is encouraging women and girls to say NO–as in, “Just say NO” and “What part of NO don’t you understand?” These and other similar expressions were promoted to encourage women and girls that it is** OK **to say NO. The woman and the woman alone decides when and IF to have sex.

 

[rlg94086]

Which is to say that we’re left with uncertainty, and perhaps not the right answer. I’m not challenging you, but “do our best and accept the results” isn’t saying all that much.

Sorry…it’s all we have in any endeavor. I’m not sure what it is you were hoping for that would be different in this case.

 

[rlg94086]

Irregular periods make it difficult to follow so-called NFP. So do temperatures and cervical mucus that won’t cooperate.

Data to back up your claim please? How many women can’t use NFP effectively?

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0707.asp

A large study on the effectiveness of the sympto-thermal method (or STM, which uses temperature and mucus observations) was published online in February 2007 in Human Reproduction, Europe’s largest reproductive medicine journal. For a method to be considered as effective as the pill when used correctly, one woman in 100 would get pregnant. The rate for the STM was far better for avoiding unwanted pregnancy: Only one woman out of 250 got pregnant.

Sounds pretty effective to me.

anode:

As far as costs go, children are the most expensive of all.

Well, since the study referenced in the article shows NFP to be more effective (1 in 250 rather than 1 in 100), then I guess you must be an NFP proponent for financial reasons.

Anyway, I disagree with your statement. Children are not “the most expensive” - they are priceless.

 

[Zatzat]

They are called cafeteria Catholics and there are a lot of them.

They’re still Catholics.

 

[rlg94086]

As a matter of fact, one of the main achievements in recent years, both in sex education and in so-called ‘feminist’ consciousness-raising is encouraging women and girls to say NO–as in, “Just say NO” and “What part of NO don’t you understand?” These and other similar expressions were promoted to encourage women and girls that it is** OK **to say NO. The woman and the woman alone decides when and IF to have sex.

Um…okay…but women aren’t saying NO…they are deciding to have sex out of wedlock. How is that a great achievement? Abstinence isn’t the same as empowerment.

 

[anode]

This is Catholic Answers, not Catholic Speculations. Some of us here are only offering what the Catholic Church teaches. Some here think that it’s none of your business. Well, what’s the point of posting anything?

God bless,
Ed

To support the opposite view. It isn’t anyone’s business but the prospective parents involved, and their medical consults if there are medical issues.

I am surprised that people are surprised that Catholics agree with the general population on this issue. Catholics, like other human beings, want only two in the bedroom, no one else. The issue on contraception drove a stake through the relationship of American (and European) Catholics with their church, which was the beginning of the end of the idea that the Catholic church can control people’s lives, as it had done in the past. American Catholics fled their previously monolithic support and took their wallets with them. Then, later, when the priest sex abuse scandal broke, the church ended up with extensive closure of schools and parishes, 60 in Boston alone, and several diocesan bankruptcies. The previous monolithic support of the church was gone, and the proscription of contraception helped kill it.

 

[Zatzat]

To support the opposite view. It isn’t anyone’s business but the prospective parents involved, and their medical consults if there are medical issues.

I am surprised that people are surprised that Catholics agree with the general population on this issue. Catholics, like other human beings, want only two in the bedroom, no one else. The issue on contraception drove a stake through the relationship of American (and European) Catholics with their church, which was the beginning of the end of the idea that the Catholic church can control people’s lives, as it had done in the past. American Catholics fled their previously monolithic support and took their wallets with them. Then, later, when the priest sex abuse scandal broke, the church ended up with extensive closure of schools and parishes, 60 in Boston alone, and several diocesan bankruptcies. The previous monolithic support of the church was gone, and the proscription of contraception helped kill it.

Quite right, and from the very article…many who’ve stayed, simply choose to blissfully ignore their Church’s position that they’re committing a mortal sin every time they practice artificial birth control.

 

[rlg94086]

Quite right, and from the very article…many who’ve stayed, simply choose to blissfully ignore their Church’s position that they’re committing a mortal sin every time they practice artificial birth control.

At their own peril, of course. The Church’s purpose is to save souls. If a soul decides it doesn’t want to be saved, that is their choice. Hell is never something forced on a person.

 

[Zatzat]

At their own peril, of course. The Church’s purpose is to save souls. If a soul decides it doesn’t want to be saved, that is their choice. Hell is never something forced on a person.

It can’t be that important, else the Priests would spend countless hours preaching on that very subject. As those Priests are in the best position to plainly see all of their one and two child families that fill the seats in their Church’s.

The fact of the matter is that the absolute vast majority of Western Catholics do what they want when it comes to contraception. If the Priests drove them away, there’d be no Western Church’s…hence the relative silence.