Detecting FAKE Tongues in Charismatic

[MichaelTDoyle]

Quote:
such as after a prayer that invokes the Holy Spirit or a prayer that is focused on “High Priase” to God.

Invoke Holy Spirit? HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD!
–Beng

Yes. I share Beng’s sentiment here. Even as a “slip” this kind of attitude is really dangerous. When I forget that God is in the driver’s seat, I always end up in trouble. I entreat Him and worship Him and praise Him. To presume to invoke Him is terrible, terrible.

and here:

I for one would rather be disobeying Paul’s instructions to the Corinthians that I would want to disobey Jesus himself.

What a Protestant way of thinking.
–Beng

Although this mode of thought playing Paul against Jesus is classically attributed to certain Protestant sects I think, It’s more important to note the serious underlying error: the fundamental idea of the Holy Spirit and Christ are One. By inserting conflict between Paul’s teaching and Christ’s there is the implication that the Spirit and Christ could possibly be at odds. The Trinity is One.

I think these points are more important than whether or not the charism is valid. It’s good that the discussion brings these ideas out. It gave me much to think about.

Peace and God Bless all of you in your worship.

 

[CatholicGeek]

MichaelTDoyle:

CG,
You quoted the encyclopedia a little out of context when you declared it not fake.

I do not mean to say that they (the gifts) were not abused, or take the statements out of context. Clearly Paul is addressing what he sees as an abuse. I was attempting to emphasis that it was the gift of tongues that they were doing, not some fake version of it.

There is a HUGE difference between FAKING a gift and ABUSING a gift. God gives each of us gifts and asks us to use them for his greater glory. Does that mean that we always use the gift as it is intended? There are too many examples we can come up with to show that this is true. Mis-use of a gift does not mean that the gift is not a gift.

I found a statement about the charismatic renewal, and posted it on the other thread. Check out forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10600&postcount=114 to see it. (Sorry it’s so long)

 

[Elizabeth]

Is anyone actually adjusting their opinion of tongues in any way as a result of this thread?

 

[CatholicGeek]

Elizabeth:

Is anyone actually adjusting their opinion of tongues in any way as a result of this thread?

Maybe we do another poll in a week with this question?

For me, I feel that I am more open to looking with a critical eye the potential abuses of the gifts in the charismatic renewal, but do not feel that I’ve really changed opinions about the movement as a whole.

It comes down to what I see as the Pope’s an bishops support of the movement. It has been said that the Pope says nice things to all people, even to the Dali Lama. Ok, I can understand that, but I have never seen a situation where the Pope lies or deliberatly says the politically correct thing. Saying that JP2’s statement “I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action” is the Pope just being nice belittles our Pope and minimizes all his words. It is saying he does not speak the truth, and does not wish to offend anyone.

I was in Denver at the airport in 1993 when the Pope visited for WYD. He greeted President Clinton, and addressed the crowd. He spoke directly and forthrightly about the need to protect unborn children and to turn away from our culture of death. He did not mince words, and the president stood right next to him (looking rather grim I might add). He spoke the truth in love, as he always does. He is a model for us all in this.

How you get any hint that the Pope does not believe this is a movement of God from anything he has said is beyond me.

You don’t need to be charismatic to follow God, it is one expression of a faith life, but condemning it whole and outright is a huge problem.

Ever person has different experiences of this movement, but a person’s experience should NOT dictate or lead a persons faith. Our Catholic doctrines and dogmas, and direction of our Pope and the magestarium of the church, must come before our personal experiences. So if I experience that a tree is God, I cannot believe it, as the faith/church says it is not true. No matter how real the experience may seem. I am one person. The church, led by the Vicor of Christ, JP2, has over 2,000 years of experience, the Holy Spirit, and the authority Jesus gave it.

Where I’m going with this (which is hopefully obvious) is that even if the charismatic renewal is flawed (which it is because it has human beings in it), it does not mean that it is not a work of God.

 

[CatholicGeek]

I don’t what the “tree” part taken too much out of context. What I’m saying there is …

We should evaluate our experiences in the light of the teachings of the Church, and not evaluate the Church in the light of our experiences.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

CG,



I knew next to nothing about it, so I found the reasoning here very edifying. These threads did influence me.

A big thumbs from me for that post of yours just above this one. I think obedience is more important than people think. I’m no biblical scholar, but disobedience sure seemed to be a big problem in OT times. I want to stay away from that error.

peace

 

[ralphinal]

My opinion has not changed because of this, and I think that I am more in the middle. I think that the various gifts are faked often, though not nearly 99%. I do think, though, that the reason tends to be a need to fit in or be a part of the group. I feel that people still do speak in tongues and some can translate these tongues. I also think that the supreme form of worship is the Mass, no tongues needed. I do not know why this is such a huge issue. That is my problem. We do have a lot of Pentecostals in AL, as well as those “moved in the Spirit” in many ways. Whether or not they are faking is not for me to decide. I can say that they are devout and generally try to live their faith. Isn’t that the important part?

 

[beng]

CatholicGeek:

Can one quote oneself here? I see that we’ve moved the “tongues” issue to its own thread.

What I posted from the other thread …

*Another question came to my mind … Paul is addressing the church at Corinth, to correct some problems and “show (them) a still more excellent way” (1 Cor 12:31b) and most of chapter 14 is about the use of tongues in the church. What does Paul not call it “Fake Tongues”? It was obviously happening, the dis-order and dis-organization.

The reason is, IMHO, that the tongues Paul was addressing were NOT fake, only used inappropriately. Thus, beng, your “challenge” is not valid. Paul never goes so far as to even imply that they were faking it, or that it was not “tongues”, but just some babbling. Paul addresses it as tongues.
*

I propose that your use of the term and meaning of “Fake Tongues” is non-biblical. Can you show that this term is biblical or that Paul is saying that it is fake?

What do you call the dis-order, dis-organized tongue? I call it fake, cause they are fake.

To say the tongues are FAKE means that it is not a gift from God that the person is exercising. It means that it is the person’s own humanness that is coming up with the words. This is NOT what Paul is addressing at all in this 1 Cor 14. Paul is addressing order.

Are you saying that a tongue spoken without interpretation amongst believer which is clearly against the Bible are from God?

I do not see the “unless they pass the test” anywhere here in Pauls words.

Read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (LOL, I’m using Protestant’s prooftext HA)

Even in the New Advent aritcle you posted it says

glossolaly = Gift of Tongues

The New Advent article does NOT say it is FAKE, in fact is says that it is “a fair reproduction”. Not FAKE.

Well, if you read carefully that is the true tongues. Not the fake one.

 

[beng]

Elizabeth:

Is anyone actually adjusting their opinion of tongues in any way as a result of this thread?

They should.

There are lurkers. I’m sure they don’t post but now they are educated. Praise the Lord.

 

[beng]

CatholicGeek:

Maybe we do another poll in a week with this question?

For me, I feel that I am more open to looking with a critical eye the potential abuses of the gifts in the charismatic renewal, but do not feel that I’ve really changed opinions about the movement as a whole.

Good. Realize the abuse. Utilize the test. If there’s no interpreter (REAL Interpreter) among believers, then THERE SHOULD NOT BE any tongues.

Crack on other abuses. Laying of hands (this is serious), sugar coated sermon (not as serious but need to be adressed).

It comes down to what I see as the Pope’s an bishops support of the movement. It has been said that the Pope says nice things to all people, even to the Dali Lama. Ok, I can understand that, but I have never seen a situation where the Pope lies or deliberatly says the politically correct thing. Saying that JP2’s statement “I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action” is the Pope just being nice belittles our Pope and minimizes all his words. It is saying he does not speak the truth, and does not wish to offend anyone.

I do not belittle Pope. I just put it in the correct perspective since every charismatic seems to justify their abuse with the Pope statement.

How you get any hint that the Pope does not believe this is a movement of God from anything he has said is beyond me.

The Vatican is a busy place. Anthony De Mello, Hans Kung didn’t get reprimanded until so much later.

Charism IS INDEED THE GIFT FROM GOD!! Heck, It’s from the scripture!! But what you have nowadays with Charismatic movement are truly much abuses.

You don’t need to be charismatic to follow God, it is one expression of a faith life, but condemning it whole and outright is a huge problem.

I’m condemning the abuses, which is a lot.

Ever person has different experiences of this movement, but a person’s experience should NOT dictate or lead a persons faith.

I put biblical evidences

So take it up with the Bible.

Our Catholic doctrines and dogmas, and direction of our Pope and the magestarium of the church, must come before our personal experiences.

Correct

Where I’m going with this (which is hopefully obvious) is that even if the charismatic renewal is flawed (which it is because it has human beings in it), it does not mean that it is not a work of God.

God can bring the goods from the bad (David’s adultery brought Solomon) yet this doesn’t make the bad becomes good.

 

[iguana27]

It appears that those who are violently opposed to speaking in tongues would not be caught dead at a Charismatic meeting, so what is the problem? It appears that the criticism is just an attempt to cast stones.

At some point, we need to trust the Holy Spirit to guide His Church, and we need to edify one another in whatever way we can.

 

[jp2fan]

beng-

I’m praying for you, man. I definitely infer that you are what I affectionately call a Protestant-hater. Believe me, I was one until about a year ago. Thankfully, the Lord brought some amazing, holy people into my life that showed me that just because Protestants do it too doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Here’s how it was for me, when I was a Protestant-hater-

-you hate praise and worship music
-you are afraid to be called a Jesus freak
-religion is more an intellectual exercise for you than something rooted in the heart
-you spend more time doing apologetics and theology than you do in prayer
-you love arguing with Protestants more because you’re right than because you love spreading the truth
-you don’t actually pray with Scripture, but only use it to prove other people wrong
-(please don’t get mad here, this is just my own personal experience)- you talk more about God than you do *to *God.

I just pray that you will be freed from any of these sentiments, if you have them. But you seem to say that everything you don’t like is ‘Protestant’. Well so what if it is? Protestants do some things better than us, that’s just the way it is. To discredit everything they do just because it’s Protestant is totally closed-minded and I don’t think it’s going to help you grow in holiness in any way.

jp2fan

1 Cor 8:1b-3: “We realize that all of us have knowledge; knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.”

 

[beng]

iguana27:

It appears that those who are violently opposed to speaking in tongues would not be caught dead at a Charismatic meeting, so what is the problem? It appears that the criticism is just an attempt to cast stones.

I have attend dozens of Charismatic meeting.

I’m trying to convert these people HALLELUJAH!

At some point, we need to trust the Holy Spirit to guide His Church, and we need to edify one another in whatever way we can.

Edify them with what? Fake tongues?

Holy Spirit doesn’t create abuses.

 

[beng]

jp2fan:

beng-

I’m praying for you, man. I definitely infer that you are what I affectionately call a Protestant-hater. Believe me, I was one until about a year ago. Thankfully, the Lord brought some amazing, holy people into my life that showed me that just because Protestants do it too doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

I have many Protestant friends. I LIVE WITH Protestant couples. I converse, debate, help, pray with and for them.

Here’s how it was for me, when I was a Protestant-hater-

-you hate praise and worship music

Any non-heretical pop Christian music is fine by itself OUTSIDE THE MASS. I listen to KFSH (LA-Orange Country gospel station) time to time.

-you are afraid to be called a Jesus freak

I can’t relate with the term since I’m not that old.

-religion is more an intellectual exercise for you than something rooted in the heart

It’s both.

-you spend more time doing apologetics and theology than you do in prayer

Can’t really say. I’d say more time on prayer.

-you love arguing with Protestants more because you’re right than because you love spreading the truth

I love arguing with anyone who can argue. Not every Protestant or Catholic are a good debate partner. Many times you’d rather band your head to the wall :banghead:

-you don’t actually pray with Scripture, but only use it to prove other people wrong

Scripture can be use for both.

-(please don’t get mad here, this is just my own personal experience)- you talk more about God than you do *to *God.

It’s nothing wrong by itself. God can be experience through people.

I just pray that you will be freed from any of these sentiments, if you have them. But you seem to say that everything you don’t like is ‘Protestant’.

What’s to like about Protestant?

Well so what if it is? Protestants do some things better than us, that’s just the way it is.

BULL! Name it and I’ll address them!

To discredit everything they do just because it’s Protestant is totally closed-minded and I don’t think it’s going to help you grow in holiness in any way.

jp2fan

Sorry, if it’s not from the Catholic Church, then it’s nothing (Gal 1:9). On second thought, I shouldn’t say “sorry.”

1 Cor 8:1b-3: “We realize that all of us have knowledge; knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.”

Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

 

[_veritas]

As someone who is certainly not very inclined to be “charismatic”, and who traditionally has been sceptical of all those tongue-speakers and people “slain” in the Spirit, I sympathize will all who do not “get it”.

However… Who are we to say that tongues no longer exist?? Does Scripture say that? (to pull, as beng would say, a Protestant trick–a valid one I think!) Is God not ABLE to continue giving the gift of tongues? Wrong, “With God all things are possible”.

Also, Scripture seems to indicate that there is more than one “variety” of tongues. There is public prophesy with interpretation as said in 1 Cor.; there is speaking in another earthly language, as was done by the disciples in Acts; and there is the “groanings of the Spirit” or private prayer in tongues as in Romans 8:26. It would seem to me that the first two would need interpreters, and the third one does not.

Even in 1 Cor 14:28 it says “But if there is no one to interpret, there should be silence in the assembly, each one speaking only to himself and to God”. This says two things - first, that just because there is no one interpreting for humans does not mean that the tongues do not exist. Second, this says silence “in the assembly”, as in, not speaking in tongues so that all can hear. Rather, one is indicated here to keep “silent” – to keep it to themselves rather than speaking publicly. This then ties into Romans 8:26 (groanings of the Spirit) and shows that one could have the gift of “silent” tongues, only between the individual and God.

One of the orthodox charismatic renewal movements within the Catholic Church today is the Emmanuel Community, based in Paray-le-Monial France. They are an officiallly Church-recognized lay apostolic community, and in fact have been granted the church in Paray (where St. Margaret Mary is from) as one of their 15 parishes. They also are in charge of the WYD cross, a duty given to them by our Holy Father himself in recognition of their love of Christ and fidelity to His Church. I am not a member of Emmanuel, but I have attended various of their prayer meetings, and of all charismatic groups I have ever encountered they are by far the most orthodox. Every meeting is centered around Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and they have a deep devotion to our Blessed Mother and the Most Sacred Heart. Their Masses are the most beautiful (and yes, liturgically correct) that I have seen. The charismatic gifts that they pray for (and do not require or force by any means) are simply a part of their way of prayer, and this is NOT the most important part–Mass and Adoration are.

Any who are interested in learning more about the prayer and charisms of the Emmanual Community can go to emmanuelcommunity.com

 

[CatholicGeek]

“I do not belittle Pope. I just put it in the correct perspective since every charismatic seems to justify their abuse with the Pope statement.”

Excuse me? You may not think you belittle him, but you DO. See your words below…

From forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9447&postcount=86

"I thought I already adress about Papal Audiences. What do you expect the Pope to say? Outright condemnation? He’s just being a fatherly shepard.

He even say nice things to Dalai Lama. Altough he should know better how wrong Budhism is."

You say that you know better than the pope. “Although he should know better”. Tell me how this is NOT belittling. It’s like a parent talking to a child. Face it, you show little respect for the pope in this, and related, threads.

"I’m condemning the abuses, which is a lot.

I put biblical evidences / So take it up with the Bible."

So far I’ve seen NO “biblical” evidence that the Corinthian were not authentically speaking tongues. The “evidence” you site is not from the bible from commentators on the bible. And if it was “so obvious in the scripture”, we would not be having a “debate” over this. Don’t you think there are others who seek God too? Many seek God, and many are charismatic who seek him. They read these same passages and do not see what you see.

I’ve read you arguments, and although you repeatedly - over and over - spout the same things, asking people to “Apply my test”. I find nothing to support your test. (Yes, I’ve read what Paul said, so please don’t tell me to read it again.)

Here’s my suggestion for you that will hopefully clear this up…

It appears that you believe in an authentic tongue that God grants to certain individuals. You believe that 99% of people are faking speaking in tongues, that these people are deceived.

**Why don’t YOU pray that God would give YOU the authentic gift of tongues, ** so that you can show the non-believers and those who are deceived what the authentic gift is? Paul does say, “eagerly desire spiritual gifts” (1 Cor 14) so this would be biblical, and he says later in the same chapter “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues” so that would be biblical.

This would probably be a better way to show the charismatic group your currently “infiltrating”. It would certainly seem less deceptive, more straightforward, and more loving.

 

[beng]

CatholicGeek:

Excuse me? You may not think you belittle him, but you DO. See your words below…

You say that you know better than the pope. “Although he should know better”. Tell me how this is NOT belittling. It’s like a parent talking to a child. Face it, you show little respect for the pope in this, and related, threads.

Umm, re-read caaaarefully again.

That is NOT belittling

He even say nice things to Dalai Lama. Altough he should know better how wrong Budhism is."

This mean that he ACTUALLY KNOW that Budhism is WRONG but HE SAID THOSE NICE THINGS ANYWAY JUST TO BE NICE

Sheeesh.

So far I’ve seen NO “biblical” evidence that the Corinthian were not authentically speaking tongues. The “evidence” you site is not from the bible from commentators on the bible.And if it was “so obvious in the scripture”, we would not be having a “debate” over this.

Did I ever say that the ones in Corinthians are fake?

Don’t you think there are others who seek God too?

Yes, Luther, Arius, Nestorius, Budha were also searching for God. Probably their own God.

Many seek God, and many are charismatic who seek him.

True, even Moslem, Hindust, Sikh and Baha’i also seek God. That doesn’t make their practices right.

They read these same passages and do not see what you see.

That is why they should be enlightened.

It’s (how tongue amongst believer should have interpreters and if not is fake) so obvius yet they are deceived. I’m doing my best.

I’ve read you arguments, and although you repeatedly - over and over - spout the same things, asking people to “Apply my test”. I find nothing to support your test

. (Yes, I’ve read what Paul said, so please don’t tell me to read it again.)
Yes, I will tell you to read it again!

1 Cor 14:27-28
27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.

Open your eyes!

Here’s my suggestion for you that will hopefully clear this up…

It appears that you believe in an authentic tongue that God grants to certain individuals.
Correct.

You believe that 99% of people are faking speaking in tongues, that these people are deceived.

That is an arbitrary number but just about right IMO.

**Why don’t YOU pray that God would give YOU the authentic gift of tongues, **

so that you can show the non-believers and those who are deceived what the authentic gift is? Paul does say, “eagerly desire spiritual gifts” (1 Cor 14) so this would be biblical, and he says later in the same chapter “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues” so that would be biblical.
I strive for other gifts and I think I have other gifts. Tongues is the least of the gift. However I leave it all up to the Holy Spirit.

And I have used two of the gifts, Wisdom and knowledge, to inform our beloved deceived brethren thorugh out this forum.

This would probably be a better way to show the charismatic group your currently “infiltrating”. It would certainly seem less deceptive, more straightforward, and more loving.

I have done so to one Charismatic group. I have explained to them the correct meaning. I don’t want to push it. It takes time. The Holy Spirit will take care of the rest, meanwhile I will continue working. The Bible is on my side.

 

[SwissGuard]

It seems like there’s a lot of individual interpretation of the Bible going on here. Just out of curiosity…What does the Church have to say about the issue?

 

[beng]

CatholicGeek:

So far I’ve seen NO “biblical” evidence that the Corinthian were not authentically speaking tongues. The “evidence” you site is not from the bible from commentators on the bible. And if it was “so obvious in the scripture”, we would not be having a “debate” over this.

Let me readdress this point, cause it may cause for confussion.

I would not say that all tongues in the Corinthians are fake. However, it seems, from newadvent.org, that there are fake tongues there (within the Corrinthians).

Unless you have other interpretation as a result from your intensive scripture study. By all mean enlightened us.

 

[CatholicGeek]

beng:

Did I ever say that the ones in Corinthians are fake?

Yes, beng, according to what I read it seems to me that you did say the “tongues” in Corinthians are fake. Both implicitly and explicitly. Let me remind you, and our other readers (who can make up their own minds) what you have said regarding the “fake tongues” of the Corintians…

First, the most explicit reference …

beng:

From forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10444&postcount=110

CatholicGeek:

Another question came to my mind … Paul is addressing the church at Corinth

, to correct some problems and “show (them) a still more excellent way” (1 Cor 12:31b) and most of chapter 14 is about the use of tongues in the church. What does Paul not call it “Fake Tongues”? It was obviously happening, the dis-order and dis-organization.

The reason is, IMHO, that the tongues Paul was addressing were NOT fake, only used inappropriately. Thus, beng, your “challenge” is not valid. Paul never goes so far as to even imply that they were faking it, or that it was not “tongues”, but just some babbling. Paul addresses it as tongues. (benq quoting CatholicGeek)
It is fake, disorderly, not edifying, scandalous, source of schims etc etc

newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm
Entry on “Tongue” on new advent

Corinthian Abuses (I Corinthians 14 passim). …

Next we come to the implicit references. By your own “Test”, which you claim is the way to tell if it is fake …

beng:

I suggest anyone who encounter tongue ala Charismaticism challange them to interpret it if they do it in front of you. If they can’t, then it’s either fake or disobedience to what Paul said

If Paul is correcting the Corinthians for not following the practice, then what the Corintians were doing does not pass as authentic, but “fake”.

According to the article on NewAdvent, that you’ve referred us to so many times, indicateds that the Corinthian “tongues” was “meaningless inarticulate gabble”. Thus they must not have had interpretations …

From newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm

(The Corinthian) made of “tongues” a source of schism in the Church and of scandal without. The charism had deteriorated into a mixture of meaningless inarticulate gabble with an element of uncertain sounds

and …

beng:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=17979&postcount=135

I put scriptural proof. Paul’s words judge those fake tongues themselves.

**If the Corintians did not do the “fake” tongues, then who’s words are Paul judging? ** The current charismatic renewal 2000 years later? That’s a stretch.

beng:

From forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10269&postcount=12

And no, the possibility of fake is a big one. As long as tongue are heard in a congregation of believers without interpretation it would be fake. Just some jubilation chanting that other “think” it’s tongue.

**It your test applies today, it would have had to apply to the Corinthians too. **

But it does not apply today, according to your prescription, and apparently it did not apply then either!