Detecting FAKE Tongues in Charismatic

[beng]

Makerteacher:

Beng, Let me be quite certain I understand you here: are you saying that if I touch my sick child while praying over him, I am violating the true teachings of the Church? If so, guilty as charged.

We pray for one another. When we do so, sometimes we place our hands on each other, NOT in some position of ecclesial authority, but because we love one another and are praying for one another. This cannot be confused with the "laying on of hands’ which the ecclesial authorities do at confirmation or ordination, and I assure you no one in the CCR thinks they are the same AT ALL. This is not an investiture of any sort. We are simply praying for each other, as scripture exhorts us to do.

2 Timothy 1: 6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.

James 5: 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

You are doping an act that may undermine the importance of the original sacramental act. This is scandalous.

Do you think that in each prayer meeting you could say the cnsecration words (On the night He was betrayed… This is my body…) to bless the food and drink that your prayer meeting is going to consume. Technically you and some of those who present should know that you don’t have any authority and probably you’re just trying to remind the audience the importance of Eucharist. However, this act is scandalous and may watered down the real meaning of the proper sacrament.

Just curious, are you a sola scriptura proponent? If so, then I understand where you are coming from, though I disagree with sola scriptura completely.

No.

How does the Bible state clearly that charismatic gifts are “errors”? Please be specific.

I never said that charism gifts as stated in the Bible are erroneous. I say that 99% of charismatic are practicing disobedience or fake act as stated in the first post on this thread.

If you are not in favor of personal interpretation and sola scriptura, then you must recognize the authority of the Pope, who supports this movement and has given it his approval. I admit that I am very saddened and concerned by your statement that “endorsement from the Pope has no authoritative power.” What do you mean?

Are you a Catholic?

It means that a mere endorsement has no authoritative power. It’s pretty self explanatory.

We don’t have to assent with our heart and mind (like infallible statements). We don’t even have to simply obey (there are lower level of authoritative statement where Catholics have to obey but they could still have different opinion on the subject)

 

[misericordie]

beng I totally agree with the topic of your thread here, and what you wrote. However, many more liberal catholics seem to never get it: this form of liturgical abuse.

I wrote something almost similar in a thread titled: Charismatic Hysteria, in the liturgy forum.
   Many blessings.

 

[Theodora]

I like to make a comment and ask a few question about “speaking in tongues.”.

Comment: I have gone to several Charismatic Masses where the priest and some people supposedly spoke in tongues, but to me it sounded more like incoherent babbling. I have never heard anybody interpret what the other one is saying. I felt uncomfortable when this type of praying starts. In fact, it turns me off.

Question: Am I wrong to feel this way? I have read the interpretations of what is considered “phrophecies” of prayer groups. Why is it considered a “phrophecy?” The interpretations are many times about things that are comonly known. And if there is a message that was interpreted why should one believe the interpreter? I have never found any of the interpretations that I have read of any real use.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with what I wrote. It was not my intention.

 

[Aeon247]

Ohh… calm down now Beng…
did the Holy Spirit give you the judgement hammer on this…
I say, why is it so hard for you to understand the workings of the Holy Spirit. You judge Charismatics by what you have seen and by what you hear, but what is it that which is felt, the inner experience of piety, courage and splendor of connecting with the power of the Holy Spirit. Go ask the ninety nine percent if they felt a lessening of their souls when they left the meeting hall. It is a inner connection, some may connect and some may not. Maybe if you just observe Charismatics when they come out after their sessions and maybe even ask some of them about their experience, then you will have better insight on this subject. But you can’t go out calling Charismatics fakes like that… don’t dish the Spirit like that because many connect and your having problems with that.
I post this reply without much experience or knowledge about Catholics speaking in tongues. I thought it was a protestant thing.
Hey… but I know alot about the power and the workings of the Holy Spirit.

        " Through the Holy Spirit...... the saints become
          eyewitnesses of the world to come." 
                                            Symeon the New Theologian
                                                            Peace out

 

[misericordie]

Theodora:

I like to make a comment and ask a few question about “speaking in tongues.”.

Comment: I have gone to several Charismatic Masses where the priest and some people supposedly spoke in tongues, but to me it sounded more like incoherent babbling. I have never heard anybody interpret what the other one is saying. I felt uncomfortable when this type of praying starts. In fact, it turns me off.

Question: Am I wrong to feel this way? I have read the interpretations of what is considered “phrophecies” of prayer groups. Why is it considered a “phrophecy?” The interpretations are many times about things that are comonly known. And if there is a message that was interpreted why should one believe the interpreter? I have never found any of the interpretations that I have read of any real use.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with what I wrote. It was not my intention.

]
You are totally right for being concerned here. I would say go to a young, faithful to tradition priest, who is AN INTELLECTUAL and is not into what feels good or emotion, and get his advice on this. I will repeat what Father John Hardon, S.J., (a well renowned theologian, who wrote: “The Catholic Catechism” handbook (not to be confused with the New Catechism of the Catholic Church) He wrote: It is not true that there are no gifts of tongues in the church, but rather there are the gift of tongues that no one understands and comes from demons rather than from the Holy Ghost.
one must be very careful in attending any mass in which the people claim to be voice boxes of God. The Church has all the official deposit of faith, and all public revelation ended with the last Apostle.
Remember what Scripure says: “in the last days there will be wonders and signs all over the place, meant to decieve even the elect.” PLUS, the Holy Ghost already speaks to each catholic IN SILENT PRAYER IN THIER HEARTS, and through daily events in their daily life. We must avoid all sensationalism.
Many blessings.

 

[Theodora]

Thank you Misericordie for your response. I can use that information.

 

[mark_a]

QUOTE=Makerteacher]I see nothing wrong with that. I am curious whether you have a problem with Catholics who pray in tongues?
MakerTeacher

• I really don’t understand the “tongues” thing. I was under the perhaps mistaken impression that there was and is a reason for one to speak in tongues.

For example: You speak only Japanese, I understand only English. If you are suddenly able to convey knowledge in English, and you and I both understand what you are saying, I find this a useful and powerful tool.

Or if you speak Japanese to my Polish (only) speaking neighbor and me at the same time and we each understand you in our own language, I would find this useful also.

I have a friend who was an on-again-off-again christian. He was w/ the Maranathans for a while, he spoke in tongues “a little bit”. He said he didn’t know what he was saying when he used tongues. He also felt it necessay to try to save me from being a “goody goody Catholic”, obviously a jab at faith and works.

No disrespect intended, but sometimes I wonder if “tongues” is the manifestation of a desire for an emotional experience or if it has some ties to gnosticism.

I’m interseted to know if I’m way out of whack on this.

 

[mvinca]

For those wanting to be effective in their apologetics I recommend Mark Brumley’s book “How Not to Share Your Faith” available here at Catholic Answers.

 

[Aeon247]

]
You are totally right for being concerned here. I would say go to a young, faithful to tradition priest, who is AN INTELLECTUAL and is not into what feels good or emotion, and get his advice on this.

---

Here is some good advice by some great advisors of the church…

" Love is the source of all emotions "
Thomas Aquinas, Summa of Christian Teachings
" He who is good in nature does notting except good "
Gregory of Nyssa, commetary on Psalms
" One should not worry, if after a time, one sees that these things
are not good. God looks at the intention with which we begin and
will reward us accordingly. This is a principle we ought to follow. "
( I could have not said it any better…) Thank you and we love you… St. Faustina Kowalska… Divine Mercy

Which one would you rather have?

A) A priest who is an intellectual and knows it all and is working on his emotions of adoration and devotion to God?
or
B) A priest who is the adoration and devotion of God, but is still working on his intellect and still doesn’t know God yet?

I wonder who God would select?
or more importantly…
who Satan would play? hmmmmmm
the intellect of God or the emotion of God?

And as far as Fr. John Hardon on the tongues thing…
" it is his lost… that others may gain… for his cloud may be to dense to see through and to much rain for even the Angels to fly in " Aeon 247 and the Holy Spirit

---

Coaches… love and thankyou for the delivery…

 

[misericordie]

Aeon247:

]
You are totally right for being concerned here. I would say go to a young, faithful to tradition priest, who is AN INTELLECTUAL and is not into what feels good or emotion, and get his advice on this.

---

Here is some good advice by some great advisors of the church…

" Love is the source of all emotions "

Thomas Aquinas, Summa of Christian Teachings
" He who is good in nature does notting except good "
Gregory of Nyssa, commetary on Psalms
" One should not worry, if after a time, one sees that these things
are not good. God looks at the intention with which we begin and
will reward us accordingly. This is a principle we ought to follow. "
( I could have not said it any better…) Thank you and we love you… St. Faustina Kowalska… Divine Mercy

Which one would you rather have?

A) A priest who is an intellectual and knows it all and is working on his emotions of adoration and devotion to God?
or
B) A priest who is the adoration and devotion of God, but is still working on his intellect and still doesn’t know God yet?

I wonder who God would select?
or more importantly…
who Satan would play? hmmmmmm
the intellect of God or the emotion of God?

And as far as Fr. John Hardon on the tongues thing…
" it is his lost… that others may gain… for his cloud may be to dense to see through and to much rain for even the Angels to fly in " Aeon 247 and the Holy Spirit

---

Coaches… love and thankyou for the delivery… You ask who I would rather have, RE: the two types of priest. I answer: the Intellectual/holy priest. Certain groups seem to beleive that studying too much theology, etc, seems to downplay God, the contrary is true. If you read The most important theologian in catholicism and the only one recomended by vatican II, namely, Saint Thomas Aquinas, he writes that the passions(in which is included emotions and feelings) must be subject to the will and the “intellect”. Furthermore, if God would not value high intellectual capabilities (given by HIM) there would not be 33 “Doctors” of the Church. I highly recomend the reading of Pope John Paul’s Encyclical “Fides et Ratio” (Faith and Reason) in which he discusses in detail much of the afformentioned. Faith is not opposed to REASON, and Reason is not opposed to faith, because God is the author of both. By the way, our worship of God is not based on FEELINGS alone.

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Church
Greetings Beng,
Beng, I have seen folks answer your objections to “tongues” in a number of threads and, in fact, often in this thread. You do not seem to be reading them or if you do, understand what folks are saying to you. You continue to post that one scripture and tell us exactly what you believe because of it.
The fact is, there are many that God has put in Spiritual authority over us that disagree with what you say. Personally, I prefer to believe them.

However, given what you have posted, I have seen prophesy in tongues with an interpreter and seen the prophesy tested often. I know it exists. I have also seen prophesy in english, tested in quite the same way.
I have seen a number of other indications of other types of tongues, one where a 6 yr old mentally retarded child spoke in Perfect Latin. She was put to the test as well. This was prior to Vatican II, before the Charismatic Renewal in the Church as we know it.
I have been at prayer meetings where folks spoke out in a known language again with an interpreter. The folks speaking, had no way of knowing this language.
I have been at a prayer meeting when a group of Downs Syndrome folks were brought in. One young man was not able to communicate in any language. However during prayer, he did speak out in a known foriegn language, it was one of the African dialects and there was a woman there from that country who spoke the language. She burst into tears and explained he has repeated the Magnificat.
Prayer language is quite different as you have been told many times. If I explain how I received this gift, possibly you will understand.
I was in prayer of Praise and Thanksgiving at home. I had spent about half hour praising God in my own language and simply ran out of words trying to tell Him how much I loved Him and how grateful I was for everything He had done. I was repeating myself and trying so hard to say more. I was in very deep prayer. The next thing I knew, my language had changed. I instantly knew it was not me but the Holy Spirit abiding in me allowing me to give God the praise my heart so much wanted to.
You want to question that? So be it.
I can use my prayer language at will. I can stop when I want to. I use it often when I do not know how to pray.
Prophesy in tongues is not a gift I have experienced, although I have interpreted. As I understand it, you cannot prophesize in tongues at will. That is at the will of the Holy Spirit.
And you are right, all of these things should be tested. That is why I am so adament that Charismatic Prayer groups should have the involvment of the Pastor and his pastoral gifts of discernment.
Furthermore, where is the rule that folks cannot pray out loud. If they are at a Charismatic gathering, and the Holy Spirit leads folks into spontaneous prayer in tongues, why should you object?
I, as well as others who read your posts, do not understand your crusade.

 

[beng]

Sheesh, I didn’t know that the thread is in this forum.

Theodora:

I like to make a comment and ask a few question about “speaking in tongues.”.

Comment: I have gone to several Charismatic Masses where the priest and some people supposedly spoke in tongues, but to me it sounded more like incoherent babbling. I have never heard anybody interpret what the other one is saying. I felt uncomfortable when this type of praying starts. In fact, it turns me off.

Good for you.

Question: Am I wrong to feel this way? I have read the interpretations of what is considered “phrophecies” of prayer groups. Why is it considered a “phrophecy?” The interpretations are many times about things that are comonly known. And if there is a message that was interpreted why should one believe the interpreter? I have never found any of the interpretations that I have read of any real use.

I’m highly suspicious of these so called “interpreter” because there’s no real checking mechanism to see if there’s people really interpreting. So we should create one.

Here’s how:

1. Have two people who say that they could interpret hear some tongues
2. Seperate the two.
3. record their interpretation seperately
4. Compare notes

If both checked then they are true interpreters. If nto then they’re faking it.

 

[beng]

Aeon247:

Ohh… calm down now Beng…
did the Holy Spirit give you the judgement hammer on this…
I say, why is it so hard for you to understand the workings of the Holy Spirit. You judge Charismatics by what you have seen and by what you hear, but what is it that which is felt, the inner experience of piety, courage and splendor of connecting with the power of the Holy Spirit. Go ask the ninety nine percent if they felt a lessening of their souls when they left the meeting hall. It is a inner connection, some may connect and some may not. Maybe if you just observe Charismatics when they come out after their sessions and maybe even ask some of them about their experience, then you will have better insight on this subject. But you can’t go out calling Charismatics fakes like that… don’t dish the Spirit like that because many connect and your having problems with that.
I post this reply without much experience or knowledge about Catholics speaking in tongues. I thought it was a protestant thing.
Hey… but I know alot about the power and the workings of the Holy Spirit.

        " Through the Holy Spirit...... the saints become
          eyewitnesses of the world to come." 
                                            Symeon the New Theologian
                                                            Peace out

Aeon, as long as there’s charismatic that speak tongues in front of believers without interpretation, then they are in error.

It is that simple.

The biblical prooftext is 1Cor14:27-28.

 

[beng]

Aeon247:

And as far as Fr. John Hardon on the tongues thing…
" it is his lost… that others may gain… for his cloud may be to dense to see through and to much rain for even the Angels to fly in " Aeon 247 and the Holy Spirit

---

Coaches… love and thankyou for the delivery…

You and the Holy Spirit?

Yeah right.

So this is the fruit of Charismaticism.

 

[beng]

robertaf:

Beng, I have seen folks answer your objections to “tongues” in a number of threads and, in fact, often in this thread. You do not seem to be reading them or if you do, understand what folks are saying to you.

That is not true.

You continue to post that one scripture and tell us exactly what you believe because of it. The fact is, there are many that God has put in Spiritual authority over us that disagree with what you say. Personally, I prefer to believe them.

Who disagree with what I’ve said?

Who disagree with 1Cor14:27-28?

However, given what you have posted, I have seen prophesy in tongues with an interpreter and seen the prophesy tested often. I know it exists. I have also seen prophesy in english, tested in quite the same way.

Give detail account of this “test”

I have seen a number of other indications of other types of tongues, one where a 6 yr old mentally retarded child spoke in Perfect Latin. She was put to the test as well. This was prior to Vatican II, before the Charismatic Renewal in the Church as we know it.

Interesting. However keep in mind.

If that retarded child speak to believers with Latin where the believers doesn’t actually understand Latin, then it’s probably fake. The main point of tongue spoken amongst believers is to be understood, that is why Paul said strongly to have interpreters.

I have been at prayer meetings where folks spoke out in a known language again with an interpreter. The folks speaking, had no way of knowing this language.

You must understand. there are two types of tongues

1. Tongue with languages where everyone could understand (Pentacost)
2. Tongues with language that no one could understand but those with the gift of interpretation. (1 Cor 14)

If that person really speak Tongue Version 1 then there’ shouldn’t be any interpreter. If there were Ethiopean, Hungarian, Danish, Eskimo, all should be able to understand his language without interpretation

I have been at a prayer meeting when a group of Downs Syndrome folks were brought in. One young man was not able to communicate in any language. However during prayer, he did speak out in a known foriegn language, it was one of the African dialects and there was a woman there from that country who spoke the language. She burst into tears and explained he has repeated the Magnificat.

Probably fake.

If it’s tongue Version 1 then all attending there, even you, should be able to understand it.

From the way you told the story I don’t think that’s how tongues work.

I was in prayer of Praise and Thanksgiving at home. I had spent about half hour praising God in my own language and simply ran out of words trying to tell Him how much I loved Him and how grateful I was for everything He had done. I was repeating myself and trying so hard to say more. I was in very deep prayer. The next thing I knew, my language had changed. I instantly knew it was not me but the Holy Spirit abiding in me allowing me to give God the praise my heart so much wanted to.

You want to question that? So be it. I can use my prayer language at will. I can stop when I want to. I use it often when I do not know how to pray.

Since you’re not speaking that language in front of believers without interpretation but to yourself, I don’t think you are violating 1 Cor 14:27-28.

whether it’s true tongues or not, I could not tell. It’s easier to judge the tongues that is spoken to congregation because there are some obvious ground rules (1 Cor 14:27-28)

…
Cont

 

[beng]

Cont…

Prophesy in tongues is not a gift I have experienced, although I have interpreted.

You have interpreted?

Do record the tongue session and your interpretation then send them to me so I could test it (1John 4:1). I will pay all shipping.

As I understand it, you cannot prophesize in tongues at will. That is at the will of the Holy Spirit.

I thoguht Charismatics motto is that, “Everyone has the gift, you just have to activate it”

And you are right, all of these things should be tested. That is why I am so adament that Charismatic Prayer groups should have the involvment of the Pastor and his pastoral gifts of discernment.

Agree. Send me tapes.

Furthermore, where is the rule that folks cannot pray out loud. If they are at a Charismatic gathering, and the Holy Spirit leads folks into spontaneous prayer in tongues, why should you object?

Duh! Look at the initial post!!

It’s again 1 Cor 14:27-28.

I, as well as others who read your posts, do not understand your crusade.

Save people from erroneous practice that may endanger their salvation.

 

[robertaf]

Good Morning Church
Good Morning Beng

It is obvious that we do not agree. I think you are wrong when you say there are only two types of tongues.
You also are hardly able to discern any of the folks mentioned without being there and in light of the fact that you are in err.

I also flatly refuse to send you anything. I do not answer to you. I answer to God and the Spiritual authority God has put over me. I am sure you are neither.

I also believe that your crusade, could end up being a stumbling block for folks being urged into the Charismatic Renewal by the Holy Spirit.

 

[beng]

robertaf:

Good Morning Church
Good Morning Beng

It is obvious that we do not agree. I think you are wrong when you say there are only two types of tongues.

Prove me wrong.

Give me scripture passage. (I’ve shown you scrupture passage to prove my point)

You also are hardly able to discern any of the folks mentioned without being there and in light of the fact that you are in err.

I don’t understand what you’re saying.

I also flatly refuse to send you anything. I do not answer to you. I answer to God and the Spiritual authority God has put over me. I am sure you are neither.

I did not insist on you to send me anything. I want you to send me stuff by your own freewill to prove your point.

If you do not want it, fine.

That alone speaks volume.

I also believe that your crusade, could end up being a stumbling block for folks being urged into the Charismatic Renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Do you think the Holy Spirit while urge people into abuse?

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Church

Greetings Beng.
Ok, Beng, I will give you a few scriptures I believe refers to Praising God in tongues.

Acts Ch 10:
44 While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. 19
45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, 46 for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded, 47 “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” 48 He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. 49 Then they invited him to stay for a few days. I think the following scripture in I Corinthinas CH 14 clearly speaks of Praying in tongues.

1 Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit. 3 On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, encouragement, and solace. 4 Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church. 5 Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be built up. Paul speaks of one tongue where we are speaking directly to God and “he utters mysteries in the spirit”, no one listens. The person,alone is built up
Then in verse 5, he speaks of prophesy and speaking in tongues with an interpreter where the church is built up.

(continued)

 

[robertaf]

13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray to be able to interpret. 14 (For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit is at prayer but my mind is unproductive. 15 So what is to be done? I will pray with the spirit, but I will also pray with the mind. I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will also sing praise with the mind. 16 Otherwise, if you pronounce a blessing (with) the spirit, how shall one who holds the place of the uninstructed say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks very well, but the other is not built up. 18 I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, 19 but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. Once again, Paul speaks of praying in tongues. He does not prefer that gift because it is not meant for the building up of the Church. He does tell us that the prayer in tongues existed and in fact was operational.

In the Charismatic Renewal today, I have never heard that the gift of praying in tongues was a greater gift than the rest. It is quite common as compared to the gift of tongues with interpretation.

I use my prayer language when I do not know how to pray, and often for my own private edification.
I also use it when I feel an urging to do so. I believe this is the urging of the Holy Spirit.