Detecting FAKE Tongues in Charismatic

[Makerteacher]

jbania:

I’ve followed many, many theads on the Charasmatic movement, in this forum. I’ve yet to see a thread explaining to me how “Life in the Spirit” builds up the Church by acknowledging or even making reference to the 7 (we had 7 last time I counted) or is the Charasmatic movement “above and beyond”.

A personal request: it’s charismatic, not charAsmatic. Thanks.

Catholic Charismatics involved in the Charismatic Renewal are completely in submission to the Pope and to our local bishops. We are an approved lay apostolate of the Roman Catholic Church and we have the blessing and support of John Paul II and many of the bishops and cardinals. This has been posted repeatedly, yet no one who is opposed to the Charismatics has had the courtesy to acknowledge this fact. I find that distressing.

I do not deny that you personally may have encountered other charismatics who are outside of this movement, and who may be doing things “above and beyond”, but we do not. Again, the Pope has addressed and continues to address various abuses in ALL lay apostolate movements. Abuses within a movement do not invalidate the entire movement any more than a few perverted priests destroy the entire Catholic Church.

The Life in the Spirit seminar is solidly grounded on the same seven sacraments, because it, too, is Roman Catholic. It’s purpose is simply to introduce people to living a fully integrated Christian lifestyle, complete with things like daily prayer, a reliance on the teachings of the Church, regular Scripture study, and frequent reception of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. It teaches you to rely on the Holy Spirit openly, and to allow God to guide your life. It teaches that you have to alter your behavior to match your religious principles. (No cheating on income taxes for devout Catholics, for instance.) It seeks to address the dichotomy many people artifically create between their “spiritual” life and their “real” life. How many times have you heard someone say something like, “Yeah, well, but this is business we’re talking about, not religion.”? It teaches about joy and grace and prayer and spitual health and discernment.

(see next post please)

 

[Makerteacher]

jbania:

Yes I can speak from experience, I’ve done a “Life in the Spirit” seminar, and it was exactly for the reasons I’ve mentioned above that I will not recommend it to any Catholic. Beng keep" fighting the good fight".
For those of you who wish otherwise,
BAPTISM,
CONFIRMATION,
RECONCILIATION,
HOLY EUCHARIST,
These are the signs instituted by Christ to give grace, by which we RECIEVE the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit. With Holy Eucharist being the pinacle of our Catholic Faith. Build up the Church in UNITY.

Without meaning to sound argumentative, I really have to take issue with your personal experience being the basis by which you judge an entire movement encompassing some 75 million or more Roman Catholics worldwide, operating under the authority of the Church you claim to be speaking for. I am sincerely sorry that the seminar you attended did not do anything for you. The one I attended literally changed my life forever, and gave me tools I desperately needed to fight the temptations I was immersed in and emerge as a practicing devout Catholic.

The changes it made in me have lasted nearly 16 years and have led me to become very involved in my parish, teaching Baptism and pre-marriage classes and serving as a lector, and in the Pro Life Movement. It also introduced me to a way of prayer that touched not only my mind but also my heart. And it introdcued me to an entire community of like minded people, with whom I am raising like minded children, a new generation on fire for the Lord and dedicated to our Catholic faith. That’s HUGE!

What it “does for the Church” is light a fire under the (pardon me) buttocks of some of Her members who don’t seem to be doing much or getting much out of their spirituality. It is not for everyone: many reject it because it is not their style, and that’s perfectly OK. There’s room in God’s Church for all of us, from the strict intellectual to the traditionalist to the charismatic to the missionary in Africa.

Nothing in the Life in the Spirit seminars argues with what you posted here: we agree that the Holy Spirit is received in Baptism and Confirmation and strengthened through Eucharist and frequent confession. None of us “wishes otherwise”. We are your brothers and sisters in the Faith.

If you want to know more about what Life in the Spirit can do for the church, check out what some of the people involved in this movement are doing: here’s one of our better known members in the CCC fraternity, the Emmanuel Community in France. This group is awesome, they are doing so many wonderful things!

www.emmanuelcommunity.com

 

[workinprogress]

The point is is that the movement is unnecessary. So is Foccolare and what not. Unfortunately, I think the 60s really shook things up so much that all the Church had within it was aplit asunder. It’s like pouring a bowl of milk into a bowl of cereal–all the cereal flies out into all directions. Now we have ultratraditionalists fighting the Pope’s ship of Don Bosco’s dream from thne right and liberal groups striking from the left. I believe the Ecclesia Dei orders will steer the ship through the pillars. They are fully Catholic in tradition, Tradition and full of obedience in all the right ways.
Tell me, where are the great saints of the modern Church that have been born since the 60s? I don’t see any. There are many great people, but no great saints. Even the ignorant poor saints before the 60s knew more of the Faith than most Catholics know today. It didn’t require apparitions most the time. They just kept the traditions handed down to them, as the Bible says. They couldn’t always make great art, literature or sacred music, but they tried. How can you get that from most churches these days? Will the Charismatic renewal bring these things back which always succeeded to evoke the Holy Spirit? Are we to continue to have ugly church buildings that inspire noone with innovations that aids to sanctify noone? Besides, even if early Christians spoke in tounges, a previous Pope taught not to go back into time. The Church would build art to more edify the souls of its people. That all crumbled so fast after Vatican 2 (not that I am saying it was involved in this), King Henry the 8th would have been proud.
It’s all in the principle. You do or be right about something but in the wrong way (by hook or by crook). The devil can speak the truth, but undermine the Church by introducing alien elements. You can do all the studies you want, but organic development of the Church kept it healthy. That was ended some decades ago–at least superficially. This and the other movements have been Yes, there were movements throughout the Church, but I believe the context was different–people still had the same Holy Mass and had the same infallible Traditions, time immemorial traditions and local traditions. The movements didn’t chance much, in general. It was all 100% Catholic. No borrowing from other faith traditions beyond what we organically developed from the religion and practices of the Jews. It was from Catholics for Catholics though non-Catholics could borrow some. You don’t get it all in one package like they did before the dissenters got their way. Now classic Catholic terms have new understandings and we still can’t communicate with Protestants. You start introducing alien words and practices with your own and the culture gets disoriented/people get confused. This is dangerous when it comes to the Church Christ created esp. when it happens during a period of disorientation and loss of identity like in the 60s.
Decent people can come from anywhere, but they don’t all have the full teachings of the Faith. Unfortunately, though we do, most Catholics don’t know them. Thus, we have indifferentism. The level of religious falls and Catholic people blaspheme and commit other sins known once to be mortal by all. How can you have efficient frequent confessions without knowledge of all the things that anger God? Why do we learn so little about our Faith from our superiors? Why do we have interfaith prayer services? Maybe these gifts need some asking for. You can find these truths from Ecclesia Dei associated orders. I think there will be greater charismatic experiences coming to priests celebrating the traditional mass than those in the charismatic movement. Why? Just learn what devotion goes into their work at a mass as compared to the innovations in these new movements.

 

[Prometheum_x]

work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

The point is is that the movement is unnecessary. So is Foccolare and what not. Unfortunately, I think the 60s really shook things up so much that all the Church had within it was aplit asunder. It’s like pouring a bowl of milk into a bowl of cereal–all the cereal flies out into all directions. Now we have ultratraditionalists fighting the Pope’s ship of Don Bosco’s dream from thne right and liberal groups striking from the left. I believe the Ecclesia Dei orders will steer the ship through the pillars. They are fully Catholic in tradition, Tradition and full of obedience in all the right ways.

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is fully Catholic in tradition, Tradition, and full of obedience in all the right ways.

Tell me, where are the great saints of the modern Church that have been born since the 60s? I don’t see any.

Not all saints attract lots of attention. They may lead their lives quietly and with simplicity. Perhaps by “great saint” you mean those saints who have the sort of calling from God that receives global recognition. What of the poor who have been martyred in the 10-40 window – even though they did not write books or touch the lives of many people, are none of them a possible “great saint”?

Are we to continue to have ugly church buildings that inspire noone with innovations that aids to sanctify noone?

Hence why my charismatic parish just built a new church – while it is no St. Peter’s Basilica or Notre Dame, it is certainly not ugly.

It was all 100% Catholic. No borrowing from other faith traditions beyond what we organically developed from the religion and practices of the Jews. It was from Catholics for Catholics though non-Catholics could borrow some.

1. It is well known that the Church has “baptized” many formerly pagan practices, where such practices could be rendered compatible with the faith.
2. The charge is that the Charismatic Renewal (though there really is no organization by that name) has directly borrowed from the Protestants, particularly the Pentecostals. That is a charge that needs to be substantiated. Correlation is not causation.

Why do we have interfaith prayer services?

If by “interfaith” you are referring to Jews, Muslims, and other such religions, I do not know why. I’m not under the impression that this happens that frequently, although it gets lots of press when it does. As well, that is not directly related to the charismatic movement. If by “interfaith” you mean “interdenomination” – Catholics and Lutherans and Pentecostals for example – I don’t know what the problem is. If they have been baptized, they are Christian, and as such, they have the same Lord, the same faith (though not in terms of “set of beliefs”), the same Spirit. I cannot think of any reason not to pray with them, assuming that they are not formal heretics (as opposed to merely being material heretics).

 

[robertaf]

Good Morning Church

You said,“The point is is that the movement is unnecessary”.
We believe that only God knows what is really necessary in His Church. We believe the Charismatic Renewal is the working of the Holy Spirit.
I do not understand why Prayer Meetings are such a threat to some people. Charismatic Prayer Meetings are not required of every Catholic. They are there for those folks who, for one reason or another, feel it is the place for them. I, personally, love having more freedom in expressing praise and worship. I feel more open to God, somehow.
This is not to say the Holy Spirit does not abide in all expressions in the Church. He does.
Let’s not forget that the Charismatic Renewal has the blessings of the Holy Father. If he removes his blessings and encouragement, then I will back away. Until then, I will Praise God with hands raised, in english and in tongues.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_14.gif

 

[workinprogress]

The Church has transposed its holidays on top of pagan ones to drive people away from the pagan ones. The Church is having an identity crisis. It does not need its identity scattered amongst various movements. I am not sure that the Pope is even fully in charge. Noone listens to his encyclicals, at least. Even if he were truly running things, is it not possible that he has been misinformed about certain groups? I think the Church works with the PLA. After all the controversy, Cardinal Law, guilty or not, has been put in a high position in Rome. Some like Hans Kung, have been put in high places in universities and such while Lefebvre, whom I do not defend yet, got excommunicated. I don’t quite buy all the judgments coming from above but I think the Pope ought to be obeyed when he writes something oprovided it is lawful. I understand that some cardinal under Pope Paul 6, I think, named Villot, reformed the curia to put the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith above the Holy Office.

BTW, regarding interfaith worship, read Mortalium Animos by Pope Pius 11th. That worship will lead to indifference in critical areas thus diluting one’s faith severely eventually someoewhere important.

 

[Makerteacher]

work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

The point is is that the movement is unnecessary. So is Foccolare and what not. .

Not neccesary for **you ** perhaps. Yet it has done wonderful things within the Church, including (but not limited to) an increase in vocations among charismatic communities, astonishing missionary work in Africa, South America. and India, and renewed devotion to traditional Catholic ways of prayer such as Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, the Diving Office, the Rosary, etc. The Catholic Charismatics I have met worldwide put Christ first in their lives and are devoted to His Catholic Church.

I truly do not think these things are “not neccesary”.
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

I believe the Ecclesia Dei orders will steer the ship through the pillars. They are fully Catholic in tradition, Tradition and full of obedience in all the right ways. .

Tell us more about these orders. I did not find much online.
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

Tell me, where are the great saints of the modern Church that have been born since the 60s? I don’t see any. There are many great people, but no great saints. .

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but they’re probably not dead yet. Most of them are only 30-60 years old and still alive. You cannot be declared a saint while you are still alive. A few that have died are are either on their way to being declared saints or have already begun the process by being declared venerable or blessed are Mother Teresa, Padre Pio, and Gemma Galgani, for starters.
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

Even the ignorant poor saints before the 60s knew more of the Faith than most Catholics know today. It didn’t require apparitions most the time. They just kept the traditions handed down to them, as the Bible says. They couldn’t always make great art, literature or sacred music, but they tried. How can you get that from most churches these days? .

You refer here not to problems with any of the movements of the Faith but to a problem of catechesis, which is the duty and obligation of the parish priest to oversee and maintain. I suspect that it will be decades before the bad catechesis that has occurred in the last few decades will be “undone”, and then only if those of us who complain about it get out and help teach. How many of you reading this teach SOMETHING in your parish, from pre-marriage classes to CCD classes to leading Bible studies?? However, this again does not connect to the issue at hand, charismatic movements.
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

Will the Charismatic renewal bring these things back which always succeeded to evoke the Holy Spirit? Are we to continue to have ugly church buildings that inspire noone with innovations that aids to sanctify noone? Besides, even if early Christians spoke in tounges, a previous Pope taught not to go back into time. The Church would build art to more edify the souls of its people. That all crumbled so fast after Vatican 2 (not that I am saying it was involved in this), King Henry the 8th would have been proud. .

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal teaches NO new doctrines. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has brought personal spiritual renewal to the lives of millions of priests, deacons, religious, and lay Catholics. It has called countless alienated Catholics to reconciliation with the Lord and with the Church. It has deepened a love for Jesus and the Church among young people as well as so many others, including the unchurched. The renewal has had no effect whatsoever on the architecture of the Church buildings, which I assume is what you refer to above. Again, that’s a whole different issue.

(see next post)

 

[Makerteacher]

(continued from above)
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

   Decent people can come from anywhere, but they don't all have the full teachings of the Faith.  Unfortunately, though we do, most Catholics don't know them.   Thus, we have indifferentism.   The level of religious falls and Catholic people blaspheme and commit other sins known once to be mortal by all.  How can you have efficient frequent confessions without knowledge of all the things that anger God?  Why do we learn so little about our Faith from our superiors?   Why do we have interfaith prayer services?    Maybe these gifts need some asking for.   .

Again, this is an issue of catechesis and has nothing to do with movements of the Faith, with lay apostolates as a whole, or with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement in particular.

I am a member of a covenant Catholic Charismatic Covenant Community in Dallas. The covenant communities are an approved lay apostolate of the Faith. We (our community) go to Mass in our own parishes, and then gather weekly in addition for praise, prayer, and teachings. We serve in our own parishes in many ways, from lectors and teachers of Baptism classes to leading youth ministries, doing pro-life work, etc, as we are called.

Prayer meetings for us are once a week, and usually consist of about 45 minutes of praise and worship music, several teachings and word gifts, and a half hour of prayer as a group. ). Usually time is two hours, though we have been known to finish sooner and to run longer than that. We are not superstitious, do not “drop the Bible open” for “magical” inspiration, do not abuse the liturgical norms, etc etc. If you visited for a meeting, you would see lots of singing and praise music, several Scvripture readings, several prophecies, some praising in tongues, and rarely, a prophecy in tongues or a Word of Knowledge spoken aloud. Sometimes we might have a prepared teaching.

We are extremely active in living out our faith. We are connected through small groups know as Shared Life Clusters (or SLCs) which are the vehicle by which we remain connected and can care for one another. Together we study the Catechism, the Scriptures, and the depths of our Faith in many ways. We also have a number of outreach ministries including a PK-8th school which the local bishop has called “The most Catholic of our Diocesan schools.” We are the only diocesan school which offers daily Mass, regular Eucharistic Adoration, Rosaries, etc. In other words, being Charismatic has made us MORE Catholic than parish schools.

Here’s our Community website:

www.lumen2000.com

As a whole, I think that lay apostolate movements are good for the Church. They reach people with various types of spiritualities and they provide a means by which the avergae Joe and Jane Catholic can be more deeply connected to the Truths of their Faith.

 

[Makerteacher]

work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

The Church has transposed its holidays on top of pagan ones to drive people away from the pagan ones. The Church is having an identity crisis. It does not need its identity scattered amongst various movements. I am not sure that the Pope is even fully in charge. Noone listens to his encyclicals, at least. Even if he were truly running things, is it not possible that he has been misinformed about certain groups? I think the Church works with the PLA. After all the controversy, Cardinal Law, guilty or not, has been put in a high position in Rome. Some like Hans Kung, have been put in high places in universities and such while Lefebvre, whom I do not defend yet, got excommunicated. I don’t quite buy all the judgments coming from above but I think the Pope ought to be obeyed when he writes something oprovided it is lawful. I understand that some cardinal under Pope Paul 6, I think, named Villot, reformed the curia to put the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith above the Holy Office.

BTW, regarding interfaith worship, read Mortalium Animos by Pope Pius 11th. That worship will lead to indifference in critical areas thus diluting one’s faith severely eventually someoewhere important.

I must disagree. Many people read and study the encyclicals of the Pope. I am personally working my way through them right now. I have friends who can quote from them. he is definately in charge and, as always, the Holy Spirit is provided by God to assure us that the Church will never fail and will never teach error.

What or who is the PLA?

 

[workinprogress]

I didn’t mean PLA. I was thinking about the Chinese “People’s” Catholic Church (the communist one).

In any case, the Church has healing sacraments, confession/reconcilliation, communion, all the spirituality ever needed to make one holy. The only reason for charismatic worship, at least in a group setting, I can see is the hope of getting some sensation from it (another poster made that point). Actually, I heard that that would be a consolation and consolations usually come to the immature. What would happen if one of of you were given the opportunity of the dark night of the soul? Would you feel you were wanting of the Holy Spirit because you would get no feedback? Now, if you don’t care if you get feedback and you just wanted to praise God, that would be healthy. The only thing is, some want to get something happening by practicing tounges. I, myself, might do a little dance to a John Michael Talbot song, but I certainly would have none of that in mass. In a service, there’s always a possibility of mass suggestion. If someone is trying to get a reaction from the Holy Spirit, it may possibly be putting God to the test–especially if that is only what keeps people on fire for Christ.
The Church has created within itself throughout the ages all needed to evoke the Holy Spirit and it does not help from Pentecostal Protestants. Maybe people did practice tounges in the early Church as it happens in the Bible, but if we know little about how the early mass happened exactly (only that it was nearer the tridentine style than today’s rite), we certainly don’t know how it was that those Biblical people spoke in tounges. It’s very likely it was bested by more solemn practices as was receiving communion on the hand.
Nevertheless, it was 1 Cor 14, I believe, where the faithful are told that noone should prohibit tounges (he didn’t say people should attempt to make t happen), but that tounges also was not as much to hope for as prophecy in one’s own tounge. Thus, tounges is really unnecessary and it can be faked by Satan. Without objective scrutinization of what is spoken in tounges, as is done for seers and miracles, you can never be sure.
I am not saying you cannot get good results, especially with sacraments involved if the form and matter are correct, but the whole movement could be by hook or by crook.

Do women preach at your services? I believe that’s covered at the end of the same chapter .
BTW, I will borrow this from the Protestants, “Give me that old time religion, it’s good enough for me”.

 

[misericordie]

(continued from above)

Again, this is an issue of catechesis and has nothing to do with movements of the Faith, with lay apostolates as a whole, or with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement in particular.

I am a member of a covenant Catholic Charismatic Covenant Community in Dallas. The covenant communities are an approved lay apostolate of the Faith. We (our community) go to Mass in our own parishes, and then gather weekly in addition for praise, prayer, and teachings. We serve in our own parishes in many ways, from lectors and teachers of Baptism classes to leading youth ministries, doing pro-life work, etc, as we are called.

Prayer meetings for us are once a week, and usually consist of about 45 minutes of praise and worship music, several teachings and word gifts, and a half hour of prayer as a group. ). Usually time is two hours, though we have been known to finish sooner and to run longer than that. We are not superstitious, do not “drop the Bible open” for “magical” inspiration, do not abuse the liturgical norms, etc etc. If you visited for a meeting, you would see lots of singing and praise music, several Scvripture readings, several prophecies, some praising in tongues, and rarely, a prophecy in tongues or a Word of Knowledge spoken aloud. Sometimes we might have a prepared teaching.

We are extremely active in living out our faith. We are connected through small groups know as Shared Life Clusters (or SLCs) which are the vehicle by which we remain connected and can care for one another. Together we study the Catechism, the Scriptures, and the depths of our Faith in many ways. We also have a number of outreach ministries including a PK-8th school which the local bishop has called “The most Catholic of our Diocesan schools.” We are the only diocesan school which offers daily Mass, regular Eucharistic Adoration, Rosaries, etc. In other words, being Charismatic has made us MORE Catholic than parish schools.

Here’s our Community website:

www.lumen2000.com

As a whole, I think that lay apostolate movements are good for the Church. They reach people with various types of spiritualities and they provide a means by which the avergae Joe and Jane Catholic can be more deeply connected to the Truths of their Faith.

WOW, this does seem to be a very good school, and really catholic! I wish I worked(teacher) for a school like that. I used to teach at a parrochial “catholic” school here in New York City(Manhattan2003-2004) and I was severely persecuted just for teaching the CATHOLIC faith… I really suffered a lot in that place.
Anyway, I wish that that school was here in New York City so I can APPLY for a teaching job there. I am an unemployed religion teacher (B.A. Dgree in Theology/religion) from Fordham University in N.Y.C… I really wish I were teaching agian, I miss teaching which I love so much, especially regarding our Catholic Faith.
P.S. If anyone knows of a school etc., that is hiring or looking for a catholic religion Teacher who is faithful to the Magisterium, and can suppy great refference letters such as myself(I am 32 years old) PLEASE notify me: misericordie.
Please pray for me.

 

[Makerteacher]

work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

I didn’t mean PLA. I was thinking about the Chinese “People’s” Catholic Church (the communist one).

In any case, the Church has healing sacraments, confession/reconcilliation, communion, all the spirituality ever needed to make one holy. The only reason for charismatic worship, at least in a group setting, I can see is the hope of getting some sensation from it (another poster made that point).

Work(name removed by moderator)rogress (i like your screen name BTW), the only reason for the Charismatic Renewal is that God started it. We’re just along on His ride. He is about setting fires in people’s hearts and calling them to radically sacrifice for Him in order to bring more people Home.
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

Actually, I heard that that would be a consolation and consolations usually come to the immature. What would happen if one of of you were given the opportunity of the dark night of the soul?

It seems to me (I could be wrong) that you are assuming I --and other Charismatics --have never had a dark night of the soul. I assure this is not the case. What happens to us then is that we cling more fully than ever to God and to our brothers and sisters in the Faith. What do YOU do when you are faced with trials and sorrows both spiritual and material?
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

Would you feel you were wanting of the Holy Spirit because you would get no feedback?

Nope. It might be a hard time, sort of like living in a long distance relationship, but the relationship remains becuase it is a covenant, and so we hang in there and “keep on keeping on” during those “dry spells”.
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

Now, if you don’t care if you get feedback and you just wanted to praise God, that would be healthy. The only thing is, some want to get something happening by practicing tounges. I, myself, might do a little dance to a John Michael Talbot song, but I certainly would have none of that in mass.

I wish I knew where you all are finding all of these Charismatic Masses. I belong to one of the largest Charismatic Catholic Covenant Communities in this continent, and I only get three Charismatic masses a year, and the only thing that distinguishes them from the regular Sunday Masses I attend is that we have better music! No liturgical abuses whatsoever. And yes, **we do really like to praise God. **

(Continued next post)

 

[Makerteacher]

(continued)
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

In a service, there’s always a possibility of mass suggestion. If someone is trying to get a reaction from the Holy Spirit, it may possibly be putting God to the test–especially if that is only what keeps people on fire for Christ.
The Church has created within itself throughout the ages all needed to evoke the Holy Spirit and it does not help from Pentecostal Protestants. Maybe people did practice tounges in the early Church as it happens in the Bible, but if we know little about how the early mass happened exactly (only that it was nearer the tridentine style than today’s rite), we certainly don’t know how it was that those Biblical people spoke in tounges. It’s very likely it was bested by more solemn practices as was receiving communion on the hand.
Nevertheless, it was 1 Cor 14, I believe, where the faithful are told that noone should prohibit tounges (he didn’t say people should attempt to make t happen), but that tounges also was not as much to hope for as prophecy in one’s own tounge. Thus, tounges is really unnecessary and it can be faked by Satan. Without objective scrutinization of what is spoken in tounges, as is done for seers and miracles, you can never be sure.

Let me repeat that tongues is a lesser gift and while certainly controversial, it is NOT the focus of the Charismatic renewal. Tongues given as a prophetic word MUST be interpreted or they are not valid. Tongues used privately in personal prayer or praise do not need interpretation.
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

I am not saying you cannot get good results, especially with sacraments involved if the form and matter are correct, but the whole movement could be by hook or by crook.

Sorry but I am not understanding your point here, can you rephrase for me? Thanks.
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

Do women preach at your services? I believe that’s covered at the end of the same chapter . BTW, I will borrow this from the Protestants, “Give me that old time religion, it’s good enough for me”.

You need to define “services”. Women do not preach at any of the Charismatic Masses I have attended in 18 years across three continents. They may always bring up testimony, Scripture, prophecy, or word gifts, etc, at any Charismatic prayer meetings.

And hey, if the old time religion is good enough for you, that’s fine with me. Our Faith is large enough to accommodate both your traditional preferences and my Charismatic ones.

 

[workinprogress]

Well, I’ll hand it to you all. You are definitely not radical leftists. Nevertheless, nothing is better than the sacred music. I went to a Catholic praise service once and they sanf songs off of WOW. I didn’t know that at the time. The songs may be praising God, and that’s fine, but we have far more beautiful songs. You have to ask yourself, can you handle the songs of the angels after a life of folk-rock? Well, I’m sure you would be adjusted for it. The music of traditional Catholicism is the music of the angels the best mankind can do it.

 

[Jguerra]

Leo,
Peace to thee and all who read this thread. Thank you for offering your clarification. Could you please provide us with the sources or authority for that explanation? I still hold if there is no one around to interpret then indeed there should be no glossolalia. St. Paul wrote quite plainly on this matter.

Joe

epiphania:

Hi beng,
Allow me to clarify this point…this particular passage actually doesnt talk about praying in tongues, this indicates prophecy in tongues. There are times when a prophecy of the Spirit comes forth in tongues and then it requires interpretation.
The praying in tongues is different, it is meant for personal edification only…and the person speaks “mysteries in spirit” when “no one listens” (1 Cor 14:2)
You see here, St.Paul speaks about interpretation of tongues, which is required for prophecies which come in tongues.

So why do prophecies come in tongues bypassing the normal route? When a prophecy comes in tongues, you can be sure that what the person speaks is not what he has interpreted from the impression placed on him by the Spirit…this is just straight in the Lords own words. Again, please dont confuse this with the office of the prophet - thats not what this gift is about. The gift of prophecy is to aid people currently needing help…be it induviduals, the community or whatever…it can even be a message of consolation…something like “I hold you in the palm of my hands”…the name can be a little misleading but this is not the office of the prophet.
For eg.,
"And the next day we that were of Paul’s company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist; which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy” "(Acts 21:8-9).

Here it talks about four daughters of a family having the gift of prophecy…surely this does not talk of tehm as prophets - a distinction is made for example when the Bible mentions others as prophets - eg Agabus who predicted the famine.

Hope this helps…the charismatic movement may appear a little strange…and true, a lot of immature catholics have not really helped by doing a lot of damage…but it has been a great source of revival for the church in several places…and the gifts of the holy Spirit are beautiful…you need to “strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts”
Blessings,Leo

 

[robertaf]

Good Morning Church

Good Morning Work in Progress,

You referred to Dark Night of the Soul.

I am a Charismatic for about 35 years, as I have mentioned before. I am also contemplative.

I went through a Dark Night of the Soul that lasted about 2 years. I spent all of that time, clinging to God out of nothing but obedience and the knowledge God does not lie. He said He would be there and He had to be even though, for me, there was nothing.

This was included in my journals, that for other reasons, went through over 10 years of scrutiny with my Bishop (and wherever he sent them.). I do not often offer to share them, although I have been told I could. I have all of it saved in my computer and if you would like to read how the Dark Night of the Soul affected this Charismatic, private message or email me and I would be happy to share it with you.

 

[workinprogress]

Please forgive me for the questioning of the Pope’s competency in judgment. Some things he has done have been suspicious but, in principle, it is not good to do this. Besides, it could be taken out of context, innocently or not, and be the basis by which to question any of his judgments. I think it’s best to just read what the Church fathers and doctors wrote on “what is” and “what isn’t” so that, if the Pope or any of the hierarchy make wrong statements about what is and what isn’t, we won’t be confused and won’t be bitter–just vigilant. Be thankful the positions are filled so we have some kind of authority (though we can make a good guess as to whether they are up to no good ignorantly or not in basic areas, they do know more Church knowledge than most of us and that should be acknowleged and respected) and administers of sacraments. That’s where I am.
I shouldn’t have voiced any conspiracy theories against his advisors, others in Church hierarchy or even local priests. I may have read some quotes from the first two that seem disturbing but, in principle, we should be respectful if nothing else because of the position they hold. After all, it’s because of what some bishops did and/or did not do during the scandals that, I believe", contributed to people’s reasoning (the root of which may be another reason) for saying “down with the hierarchy” or that the Church has lost its credibility to talk about sin.
That’s what’s on my conscience. I hope I said it well and correctly. I think i will quit the forum because it can be an occasion of Pride. I hope I have not discouraged anyone from the charismatic movement if it be from the Holy Spirit, but still read all encyclicals and other Church teachings throughout the ages possible so the experience is more than a feeling. “Hell” is a very good book to learn a lot of the faith for penance, esp.
For the statement before the last paragraph I wrote, the Church will always be able to talk about those hard truths as well as mention groups that are troubling the faithful because it is given the deposit of Faith ever since Christ bestowed that upon his Church until the end of time; those representing the Church can’t self-righteously pronounce those truths that bother people’s consciences without being a hypocrite.

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Work(name removed by moderator)rogress,

Oh, I hope you don’t leave. I very much liked your last post and found it beautifully humble. What an inspiration.

I understand exactly what you are saying but it was said so much better than I have heard it.

 

[seeker63]

I don’t mean to step on anyone’s toes, but I cannot believe the Charismatic movement is anything other than bogus. I am a Protestant, and the fact that charismatics and ecstatics are consuming that part of Protestantism that hasn’t already succumbed to the “feel-good” doctrine is a major, major factor in pushing me towards either Catholicism or Orthodoxy. It grieves me to hear this is creeping into Catholicism too.

My understanding is that the really dramatic spiritual gifts like tongues were a limited thing, exercised only in the first generation of the Church, chiefly to evangelize the Jews, and basically shame them. The multiplicity of foreign languages was supposed to be a very clear object lesson to the Jews that so many different Gentiles had come to Christ, realizing Him to be the Messiah, yet the Jews, His own people, rejected Him.The legitimate use of tongues ended in 70 A.D., when the Romans sacked Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and scattered the Jews among all nations of the earth.

I Corinthians 13:8-10

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

My understanding is verse 10 refers to the Canon of Scripture. When that was finally gathered together, finished, made “perfect,” then there was no longer any need for things like tongues, because we then possessed “the mind of Christ” (I Cor. 2:16).

I am a big believer that one of the foremost motivating factors of most human beings is the desire to get attention. To me, the Charismatic movement is nothing more than people trying to show off and convince others how “spiritual” they are. Many people feel that spirituality is something that is expressed physically, so we get the tongues, the dancing, the melodramatic praying with arms upraised, the swaying in place.

I’ve seen footage of Caribbean voodoo rituals.The faithful work themselves into a trance and go into a physical frenzy.That doesn’t mean they’re possessed by God, though.

Another thing that bothers me about this movement is its strange, hocus-pocus attitude toward the Holy Spirit.

[continued]

 

[seeker63]

[continued]

I do not doubt that many practitioners of Charismatic activities are sincere and more or less pure of heart. Many have worked themselves into actually believing that what they’re staging is genuine, hence Charismatic activities performed when alone. Some may just be deluded, but others may actually be demon-possessed.

No one comes to God without a need. I have my needs, you other posters have needs. We are all weak and imperfect, myself most of all. But Charismatics clearly do what they do out of a need for attention. That’s a legitimate human need too, but we should seek attention in other ways, ways that don’t divert Christians from the Truth.

I’ve had close experiences with this movement, so I know whereof I speak. I had a friend who, some years ago, converted from Judaism to Charismatic Episcopalianism. I never knew there was such a thing. (And while I’m on it, why do so many converts to Christianity tend to go way overboard, to some form of extremism?)

My friend’s family disowned him, said his deceased grandparents “loved their Jewish grandson,” but would not love him if he was a Christian. They claimed he was joining in with monsters who’d persecuted their people for millenia. The first time he wore a Cross around his neck in their presence that said he was doing it just to rub their noses in it. I was horrified to hear of such anti-Christian hatred in Jews, especially since I have a great respect of and interest in Judaism.

So having been cast out by his family, he fell under the influence of a young, Charismatic Episcopalian priest. The priest fed my friend books, including material that condemned all Masons as Satanists and perpetrators of elaborate, dark conspiracies. My friend’s father and grandfather were Masons, and since my friend was already predisposed to having a negative attitude towards his family, it was a small and convenient leap to self-righteously decide his father and grandfather were raving Satanists.

This guy even threw a public tantrum in front of me when he learned a state museum, paid for by tax dollars, had been dedicated to a politician who happened to be a Mason. I said that if he hated Masonry and Masonic symbols so much, he should hand all his paper money over to me, since our tender is covered with such symbols.

He eventually grew disenchanted with the group at his church, and began looking around town for other groups he could latch onto, especially if they were of the Charismatic Episcopalian variety.

[continued]