Detecting FAKE Tongues in Charismatic

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Every charism has a use, for the greater good of the Church and Her people. If we agree that speaking in tongues is a possible gift given to us by the Holy Spirit (and I agree that it is, although in less frequency than Charismatics claim), what function should it serve? That seems to be the primary question here, and the source of all contention. This is really what the original poster hints at with the thread.

If you’re a Charismatic, I wonder what you think the functionality of tongues is. Is its primary function to fill the gathered people with awe and wonder? If it serves any other function, I think the quoted passage from the original poster must be satisfied.
 
Bump.
I’m interested to know if I’m way out of whack on this because…

I really don’t understand the “tongues” thing. I was under the perhaps mistaken impression that there was and is a reason for one to speak in tongues.

For example: You speak only Japanese, I understand only English. If you are suddenly able to convey knowledge in English, and you and I both understand what you are saying, I find this a useful and powerful tool.

Or if you speak Japanese to my Polish (only) speaking neighbor and me at the same time and we each understand you in our own language, I would find this useful also.

I have a friend who was an on-again-off-again christian. He was w/ the Maranathans for a while, he spoke in tongues “a little bit”. He said he didn’t know what he was saying when he used tongues. He also felt it necessay to try to save me from being a “goody goody Catholic”, obviously a jab at faith and works.

No disrespect intended, but sometimes I wonder if “tongues” is the manifestation of a desire for an emotional experience or if it has some ties to gnosticism.
 
Someone else posted much of this information earlier, so this may seem redundant, but I am making an effort to represent the material in the hopes that it may be understood:

First, a definition for the word “fake”:

*adj. *Having a false or misleading appearance; fraudulent.
*n. *One that is not authentic or genuine; a sham.

*From dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fake

Therefore, the logical conclusion is that when one says that 99% of Charismatic “gifts” are fake, particularly tongues, they are saying that they are not authentic, rather than simply being an abuse of something which is otherwise authentic.

There is no basis for this figure, nor is there a basis for the equivalent statement, “Most Charismatic gifts are not authentic.” Scripture does not explicitly deal with the concept of “fake tongues”, nor has any reputable organization done any research of Charismatic phenomena around the world and reported the statistics resulting from their findings.

This sort of conversation can quickly become a quote happy, pitting various theologians against each other: “The pope says this, Fr. So-and-so said that, Dr. What’s-his-name thinks this. . .” One thing that is clear: there are bishops and theologians who support the Charismatic Movement, and no miniscule number, either. While this does not prove its legitimacy any more than the same proved the legitimacy of the Arians, it does show that this is not a fringe movement among the uneducated and ignorant.

I’ll make another post in order to spell out my own personal analysis of the pertinent Scripture passages. . .
 
Quotations from the RSV-CE:

“For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.” (1 Cor 14:2)
*
“He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.” (1 Cor 14:4)

*These verses seem rather plain in meaning. Speaking in tongues then, would seem to be a good thing.

Paul makes the case that prophecy is much better than tongues, simply because it is edifying to others as well as the one prophesying. Consequently, he urges the Corinthians to
*
“earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy” (14:1b) *
*
“Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.” (14:5)

“strive to excel in building up the church” (14:12b)*

"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all; nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue." (14:18-19)

A constant theme throughout all of this is the importance of doing things that are edifying for the church. Paul says further:

*“Therefore, he who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. Wham I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.” (14:13-16)

“Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may give thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.” (14:16-17)

*It is clear to me that it is good to speak in tongues and to pray with the spirit. However, it is better if you speak in tongues and have an interpretation, and it is better to pray with the spirit and the mind. This does not deny the goodness of speaking uninterpreted tongues, but only establishes that it is even better if others can be edified.

Paul goes to say:

*". . .When you come together. . . . Let all things be done for edification. If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God." (14:26b-28)

“Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.” (14:29-33)

*When assembling “in church”, there is no point in doing something in front of all those gathered unless it can be done for the edification of all gathered. Otherwise, keep silent. Keep your prayer to yourself and God. Orderly worship, for the edification of all involved.

Does this mean that uninterpreted tongues are bad? Not at all. The Scriptures say nothing of the sort, only that it is better if there is an interpretation. That is why the gift of tongues is not among the greater gifts.

Basically, it seems to me that this passage is saying "If you don’t have an interpretation, don’t get up in front of the group and tell it to them all but keep it to yourself. In both cases you would be edifying yourself only, but in the first case, you would be introducing an element of disorder and confusion.
 
I believe because St. Paul says so that the Holy Spirit gives a gift of tongues. But what is the definition of tongues? Also, a big problem I have with it is those who speak in tongues seem to be able to do it at will, or seem to think they can be taught to do it by someone else.

St. Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 12-11 “But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, DISTRIBUTING THEM INDIVIDUALLY TO EACH PERSON AS HE WISHES.”

I don’t think people can conjure up the Holy Spirit and his gifts, which is what seems to be happening. It’s very presumptuous.

Peace in Christ +
 
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jjanderson:
I believe because St. Paul says so that the Holy Spirit gives a gift of tongues. But what is the definition of tongues? Also, a big problem I have with it is those who speak in tongues seem to be able to do it at will, or seem to think they can be taught to do it by someone else.

St. Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 12-11 “But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, DISTRIBUTING THEM INDIVIDUALLY TO EACH PERSON AS HE WISHES.”

I don’t think people can conjure up the Holy Spirit and his gifts, which is what seems to be happening. It’s very presumptuous.

Peace in Christ +
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You are absolutely correct; you cannot conjure up the Holy Spirit and his gifts. Why do you say that this is the sort of thing which seems to be happening?

As for using the gift of tongues at will, why is that necessarily a bad thing? For, “the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.”
 
Greetings Church

We do not will a particular gift. We can pray for it but in the end, the Holy Spirit gifts us as He wills.
If we have the gift of praying in tongues, this is the act of praise and thanksgiving and also allowing the Holy Spirit to pray through us when we do not know how to pray, this is a gift we can control. This means we can use it at will.

In my experience, and I invite anyone to correct me if I am wrong, we do not have control over prophesy in tongues or in interpretation. That is strictly controlled by the Holy Spirit and chooses us at His will.
 
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robertaf:
Greetings Church

We do not will a particular gift. We can pray for it but in the end, the Holy Spirit gifts us as He wills.
If we have the gift of praying in tongues, this is the act of praise and thanksgiving and also allowing the Holy Spirit to pray through us when we do not know how to pray, this is a gift we can control. This means we can use it at will.

In my experience, and I invite anyone to correct me if I am wrong, we do not have control over prophesy in tongues or in interpretation. That is strictly controlled by the Holy Spirit and chooses us at His will.
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However, the Holy Spirit does not somehow possess you and force you to speak in tongues. The individual has to exercise their will.
 
You are right. I meant to say we could not will ourselves to have prophesy in tongues.
 
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Prometheum_x:
You are absolutely correct; you cannot conjure up the Holy Spirit and his gifts. Why do you say that this is the sort of thing which seems to be happening?
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Only because there are some churches where a whole bunch of people speak in tongues and other churches where zero people speak in tongues. (Also, years ago I went to a charismatic service and when it was tongue speaking time everybody did it, and it just didn’t seem real to me.)

I’m not at all criticizing it or saying it’s not real. Just trying to learn more about it. Some of the examples given above, where someone walked by who spoke a different language and heard something God wanted them to hear, makes total sense to me. Much like what happened at Pentecost, where it seems the gift of tongues was given to the disciples in the upper room to prepare them to preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth. I’ve always viewed the gift of tongues in that light, that it is given to facilitate preaching of the Gospel, breaking down language barriers, etc.

I just think this gift is sometimes used for sensationalism, but again, I don’t know much about it.

Peace in Christ +
 
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jjanderson:
Only because there are some churches where a whole bunch of people speak in tongues and other churches where zero people speak in tongues. (Also, years ago I went to a charismatic service and when it was tongue speaking time everybody did it, and it just didn’t seem real to me.)

I’m not at all criticizing it or saying it’s not real. Just trying to learn more about it. Some of the examples given above, where someone walked by who spoke a different language and heard something God wanted them to hear, makes total sense to me. Much like what happened at Pentecost, where it seems the gift of tongues was given to the disciples in the upper room to prepare them to preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth. I’ve always viewed the gift of tongues in that light, that it is given to facilitate preaching of the Gospel, breaking down language barriers, etc.

I just think this gift is sometimes used for sensationalism, but again, I don’t know much about it.

Peace in Christ +
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Perhaps the blame should be placed on the churches who don’t have any people speaking in tongues instead of those parishes where people do speak in tongues. . . :hmmm:
 
I, like Beng, am very concerned about this charismatic stuff. Satan can ape what God does. He could tell the truth but the practice may be suspect; just as some traditionalists may be right about something technically, but wrong in the spirit and motivation. Of course, Satan can outright lie or mix truth with falsities. I think, if anyone speaks in tounges, they should be rushed to a non-charismatic priest, bishop or whoever needs to analyze it (to be sure the test as to whether the Holy Spirit was speaking through the tounges-speaker is completely objective) . It should be treated with the same intense scrutiny given to those who receive locutions even if there is an interpreter (the two could be out to scam or just plain deceive).
In any case, the Bible says not to pursue gifts like tounges. It is a gift because you don’t ask for it so don’t go trying to dance around and bug out psychosometically in the pursuit of conjuring up the Holy Spirit as African voodoo priests and priestesses try to get possessed by some soul.
Also, I don’t recall saints speaking in tounges in centuries. I hear of them going into ecstacy, but not tounges. Besides, I hear that the apostles speaking to the people of the different lands would have probably been speaking in theie own language and the others heard it in their own language–like as in some sci-fi translator device (except supernatural and from God).
We definitely don’t need a charismatic mass. The tridentine had and has all that’s needed. St. Pio, St Philip Neri, I believe St. John Vianney all had intense experiences with the Holy Spirit during holy mass. Of course, nowadays, people in modern, usually suburban parishes, are fed all kinds of stimulating innovations to stay awake since they are not even taught the meanings of parts of the novus ordo mass and thus, being bored with some routine they can’t understand, even in English, dancing, clapping, and auto-bugging out are likely to come about (but that too would become old). In other words, don’t preplan charismatic experiences. The Pride is just too overwhelmingly tempting to Satan to pass it up. If it happened during a solemn mass and someone interprets it, fine–test the spirits through objective tests the Church gives to other supernatural activity like possession, apparition seeing/hearing, etc. as well as the long-term impact it has on the parish or beyond or miracles that may result (which alo would have to go through proper channels).
 
I’ve followed many, many theads on the Charasmatic movement, in this forum. I’ve yet to see a thread explaining to me how “Life in the Spirit” builds up the Church by acknowledging or even making reference to the 7 (we had 7 last time I counted) or is the Charasmatic movement “above and beyond”. :rolleyes:
Yes I can speak from experience, I’ve done a “Life in the Spirit” seminar, and it was exactly for the reasons I’ve mentioned above that I will not recommend it to any Catholic. Beng keep" fighting the good fight".
For those of you who wish otherwise,
BAPTISM,
CONFIRMATION,
RECONCILIATION,
HOLY EUCHARIST,
These are the signs instituted by Christ to give grace, by which we RECIEVE the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit. With Holy Eucharist being the pinacle of our Catholic Faith. Build up the Church in UNITY. 👍
John 18:21
" so that they all may be one, as you Father, are in me and I in you, that they may also be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
Code: 
            John 20:21
           "Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you". As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."
             God Bless my brothers and sisters in Christ
                                            jbania
 
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:
I, like Beng, am very concerned about this charismatic stuff. Satan can ape what God does. He could tell the truth but the practice may be suspect; just as some traditionalists may be right about something technically, but wrong in the spirit and motivation. Of course, Satan can outright lie or mix truth with falsities. I think, if anyone speaks in tounges, they should be rushed to a non-charismatic priest, bishop or whoever needs to analyze it (to be sure the test as to whether the Holy Spirit was speaking through the tounges-speaker is completely objective) . It should be treated with the same intense scrutiny given to those who receive locutions even if there is an interpreter (the two could be out to scam or just plain deceive).
In any case, the Bible says not to pursue gifts like tounges. It is a gift because you don’t ask for it so don’t go trying to dance around and bug out psychosometically in the pursuit of conjuring up the Holy Spirit as African voodoo priests and priestesses try to get possessed by some soul.
Also, I don’t recall saints speaking in tounges in centuries. I hear of them going into ecstacy, but not tounges. Besides, I hear that the apostles speaking to the people of the different lands would have probably been speaking in theie own language and the others heard it in their own language–like as in some sci-fi translator device (except supernatural and from God).
We definitely don’t need a charismatic mass. The tridentine had and has all that’s needed. St. Pio, St Philip Neri, I believe St. John Vianney all had intense experiences with the Holy Spirit during holy mass. Of course, nowadays, people in modern, usually suburban parishes, are fed all kinds of stimulating innovations to stay awake since they are not even taught the meanings of parts of the novus ordo mass and thus, being bored with some routine they can’t understand, even in English, dancing, clapping, and auto-bugging out are likely to come about (but that too would become old). In other words, don’t preplan charismatic experiences. The Pride is just too overwhelmingly tempting to Satan to pass it up. If it happened during a solemn mass and someone interprets it, fine–test the spirits through objective tests the Church gives to other supernatural activity like possession, apparition seeing/hearing, etc. as well as the long-term impact it has on the parish or beyond or miracles that may result (which alo would have to go through proper channels).
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Where does the Bible say to not pursue gifts like tongues?
 
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jbania:
I’ve followed many, many theads on the Charasmatic movement, in this forum. I’ve yet to see a thread explaining to me how “Life in the Spirit” builds up the Church by acknowledging or even making reference to the 7 (we had 7 last time I counted) or is the Charasmatic movement “above and beyond”. :rolleyes:
Yes I can speak from experience, I’ve done a “Life in the Spirit” seminar, and it was exactly for the reasons I’ve mentioned above that I will not recommend it to any Catholic. Beng keep" fighting the good fight".
For those of you who wish otherwise,
BAPTISM,
CONFIRMATION,
RECONCILIATION,
HOLY EUCHARIST,
These are the signs instituted by Christ to give grace, by which we RECIEVE the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit. With Holy Eucharist being the pinacle of our Catholic Faith. Build up the Church in UNITY. 👍
John 18:21
" so that they all may be one, as you Father, are in me and I in you, that they may also be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
Code: 
              John 20:21
“Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you”. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”
God Bless my brothers and sisters in Christ
jbania
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I’ve never done a Life in the Spirit seminar, so I am not very familiar with the sorts of things they discuss. However, I do know that some Life in the Spirit seminars are tailored towards groups consisting of both Catholics and non-Catholics, which would explain a lack of emphasis on Sacraments in those particular seminars. The Charismatic Renewal is not “above and beyond” the Sacraments. Any charismatic Catholic who thinks that way has severe problems. However, I have encountered Catholics of all types who have a superiority complex, thinking that their way of practicing Catholicism is superior to any other way.

Abuse does not prove a thing to be wrong, any more than the scores of false Marian apparitions somehow discredit the true ones, or the actions of certain US priests the priesthood in general.
 
A superiority complex is one coming from Pride–like trying to be slain in the spirit or something. I don’t believe any saint would attempt to get that sensation.
A practice of Catholicism reaching over centuries is good because it has merit. It is not Prideful to hold it, a shared practice, above new forms of worship only 30 years old–in our Church, at least.
 
work(name removed by moderator)rogress:
A superiority complex is one coming from Pride–like trying to be slain in the spirit or something. I don’t believe any saint would attempt to get that sensation.
A practice of Catholicism reaching over centuries is good because it has merit. It is not Prideful to hold it, a shared practice, above new forms of worship only 30 years old–in our Church, at least.
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At one time, all movements were new.

Would a saint refuse to be “slain in the Spirit”?
 
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Prometheum_x:
At one time, all movements were new.

Would a saint refuse to be “slain in the Spirit”?
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I think they would first reject the term “slain”, which seems like something outof the story of Jim Jones, or cultish. Saints WERE ALREADY FULL of the Holy Ghost because they were in sanctifying Grace, avoided sin, and obeyed the Church. They had no need to hysterically yell, bark, throw themselves on the florr, or breakdance.:dancing: . Rather, they silently, contemplated God in the silence of their hearts, and HID any Power attribute, so as to not fall into pride. THIS IS CATHOLIC.
 
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misericordie:
I think they would first reject the term “slain”, which seems like something outof the story of Jim Jones, or cultish. Saints WERE ALREADY FULL of the Holy Ghost because they were in sanctifying Grace, avoided sin, and obeyed the Church. They had no need to hysterically yell, bark, throw themselves on the florr, or breakdance.:dancing: . Rather, they silently, contemplated God in the silence of their hearts, and HID any Power attribute, so as to not fall into pride. THIS IS CATHOLIC.
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Misericordie, would you please refrain from making such crude characterizations of charismatics? Regardless of what you may think of them, we are trying to have a civil conversation and that is not aided by the introduction of absurd things such as break dancing.

Is the strength of your argument so weak that you have to focus on absurdities? You have admitted elsewhere that not all charismatics exhibit those things, so please address those charismatics.

At the present, you are acting like the protestant who insists on focusing on New-Age nuns, scandalous bishops, and immoral popes, talking about how the Catholics teach their people to pray to statues and all the rest of the standard anti-Catholic trash.
 
Good Morning Church

I would like to take a minute to address questions I have seen here and in other Charismatic threads. It regards testing gifts.

Since this was a newly revived renewal in the Catholic Church back in the early days (1960s-1980s), the Church was naturally concerned. Most Catholics should have already considered this. The Charismatic Renewal, itself was carefully scrutinized, there are many books written on this. Individuals and gifts were as well. There was a Priest I knew, who was also a Catholic Psychologist. He did many studies on people while praying in tongues. These studies included EEGs, His findings were that everyone of the tongues he studied had the same qualities of valid languages and all showed brain waves exactly like those of a person praying in english. His name was Father Steven Barham, God rest his soul. There have been linguists who have recorded tongues at various prayer meetings and studied them with the same results. In fact, some of the tongues, unknown to all were languages that could be interpreted by linguists.
At one point in my life, while in contemplative prayer, I had what I call visions. My spiritual director told me to journalize as best I could. My journals were sent on to my Bishop. These experiences were under scrutiny for over 10 years. I was finally told that nothing invalid to Church or scriptural teaching could be found. I was also told that some of the things I saw were not mmm commonly taught in the Church but could be used in testing and were valid. I am not using the same words I was given by my Spiritual Director that he received from the Bishop but this is what it came to. I don’t know how this process is done and I was amazed it took 10 years but it did.
Please be aware that with extraordinary events as we see in the Charismatic renewal, the Church does it’s jobs. Healings are verified in many cases as well.

Hope this helps you with better understanding.
🙂
 
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