Detecting FAKE Tongues in Charismatic

[seeker63]

[continued]

We argued about tongues. I said that God was not the God of confusion. He was the purest form of reason and intelligence. There was absolutely no reason for Him to make people babble jibberish, especially if it wasn’t an actual human language.

I said emotionalism is not an indicator of whether or not we’re “spiritual” or “right with God.” We must be governed by our mind and heart, not our passions and feelings.

And I said television faith healers were bogus as well.

Still later, my friend suffered another spiritual crisis, which he explained to me somewhat. but that didn’t make much sense. He said things had gotten so bad he had prayed, “Lord, if you don’t make thus-and-so happen pretty soon, I don’t know as I’m gonna be able to believe in you any more.”

That shocked me, and I got onto him a bit, saying that belief in God should not depend on whether or not He always gives us our way.

Then my friend wound up at yet another Charismatic Episcopalian Church, and called me breathlessly to tell me what had happened there a few days before. On a weekday, when there were no services going on, but there were several people running around the church, an older female member supposedly had a vision. She saw demons flying around the sanctuary, trying to attack the altar. But an angel was standing in front of the altar, like a hockey goalie in front of a net, as if to say, “THIS part of the church you shall not have!” (My friend’s words.)

Naturally everyone on hearing this was amazed and started praising God and so forth. And just as naturally the older lady found her status in the church bumped up. She was now special. She had visions. Maybe she would even prophesy soon.

My initial reaction was, “Come on, gimme a break!” My friend said that God had permitted this lady to see these demons and this angel. I asked why he thought that might be, but he couldn’t really explain it.

I said that while I certainly don’t disbelieve that miracles can happen in this day and age, there was no logical reason for God to show this supposed event to this woman, especially if no message was given. I said that God does things for a purpose–He doesn’t just stage supernatural tableaux to entertain and dazzle the faithful. Clearly, I said, this woman just wanted attention, and the entire church was apparently so gullible they played right into that.

My friend later semi-reconciled with his parents, but continued to bounce from church to church. The last time I heard anything from him he’d apparently had a nasty and permanent falling-out with a long-time friend who’s in a cult-like fundamentalist church.

And he also mentioned he’d been considering converting to Catholicism.

 

[Katia]

I haven’t read all of the posts, since it’s kind of lengthy, but I am confused about a couple of things. From what I’ve heard of speaking in tongues, those around the speaker don’t comprehend what he’s staying. It’s like he’s babbling in a foreign language.

As I understand it, when the Holy Spirit came down on those in the Bible, causing them to speak in tongues, everyone around heard them speaking in their own languages (were they there, the Germans would hear German, the French would hear French, etc.). It seems odd to me that while the gifts of the Holy Spirit at that time served practical purposes, today they seem to do the opposite (tongues, slaying in the spirit, etc.). It just all seems too much like the televangelists and their healing shows. This is why I’ve steered away from the Charismatics thus far.

 

[Prometheum_x]

seeker63:

Could you please explain why you believe that 1 Cor13:10 is referring to the completion of the Canon of Scripture?

Second, how do you reconcile all the things you have said about the speaking of tongues with 1 Cor 14?

 

[Makerteacher]

Katia:

I haven’t read all of the posts, since it’s kind of lengthy, but I am confused about a couple of things. From what I’ve heard of speaking in tongues, those around the speaker don’t comprehend what he’s staying. It’s like he’s babbling in a foreign language.

As I understand it, when the Holy Spirit came down on those in the Bible, causing them to speak in tongues, everyone around heard them speaking in their own languages (were they there, the Germans would hear German, the French would hear French, etc.). It seems odd to me that while the gifts of the Holy Spirit at that time served practical purposes, today they seem to do the opposite (tongues, slaying in the spirit, etc.). It just all seems too much like the televangelists and their healing shows. This is why I’ve steered away from the Charismatics thus far.

First of all, be aware that there’s a vast gulf of difference between the official Catholic Charismatic Renewal, which is an approved lay apostolate of the Faithful, operating with the blessings of the Pope and in obedience to our local bishops, and your garden variety (usually) protestant “charismatic.” As with ANY lay movement, there are occassional abuses, but these are growing fewer and farther between daily.

Secondly, in most Charismatic prayer meetings, you’ll find two kinds of tongues being used. The first is private praise in tongues, which needs no interpretation, because it is not publicly proclaimed but ratehr is an intimate conversation between me and God. He knows what I am saying. The second kind is **public prophecy ** in tongues, which is done loudly before the whole community and MUST be followed with an interpretation. This happens fairly rarely in most legitimate communities.

1 Cor 14:28 says “But if there is no one to interpret, there should be silence in the assembly, each one speaking only to himself and to God”.

This says two things - first, that just because there is no one interpreting does not mean that the tongues do not exist. Second, this says silence “in the assembly”, as in, not speaking in tongues so that all can hear. Rather, one is indicated here to keep it to themselves, rather than speaking publicly.

Romans 8:26-27 (groanings of the Spirit) shows that one could have the gift of “silent” tongues, only between the individual and God. In this passage from Scripture, the Spirit seems to be the medium of communion with God.That’s what I mean when I say “private praise.” We’re just trying to express to God the inexpressible love He gives us.

The third type of tonuges is the rarest, but I have seen it occur; when someone speaks what sounds like babble to us, only to discover from a visitor or a passerby that the person was speaking, say, perfect Swahili, which is the visitor’s native language, or some such “real language” encounter.

The focus of charismatic Catholic prayer meetings praising and worshipping God, NOT manifesting the various gifts, and not just speaking in tongues. Scripture teaches --and we believe --that tongues is the lesser of the gifts. In fact, tongues play a far smaller role in our prayer meetings than “outsiders” might think.

You have nothing to fear from Catholic Charismatics .

 

[seeker63]

Could you please explain why you believe that 1 Cor13:10 is referring to the completion of the Canon of Scripture?

[1 Cor. 13:10—“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part hsall be done away.” The phrase “that which is perfect” refers not to a person, but to a thing. The Greek noun TO TELEION is the nominative NEUTER singular from the noun TELEIOS, and is translated as “the perfect” or “the completed.” In James 1:25 the exact same word is used, where the phrase “the perfect law of liberty” refers to the Bible, the completed Canon of Scripture, written in Gentile languages.

So in other words, a more complete translation of 1 Cor. 13:10 would read, “But on that occasion (the completion of the Canon) when the completed (perfected) is come (a reference to the entire Bible), the fragmentary (temporary gifts) will become inoperative.”

Once the Canon was completed, it would serve the same purpose as the temporary gifts, such as apostleship, prophecy, healing, and tongues.The temporary spiritual gifts were designed to establish the authority of the pastors, apostles, and evangelists. The gift of prophecy was designed to convey doctrinal truths to a congregation, while tongues served to evangelize unbelievers who might be visiting, and to warn the Jews who had rejected the Messiah.].

 

[seeker63]

Second, how do you reconcile all the things you have said about the speaking of tongues with 1 Cor 14?

**

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.”—1 Cor. 14:21-22.

In the later days of the Apostles we see gifts like healing already fading out. (2 Timothy 4:20).

In 1 Cor. 14 we see that because the Corinthians were abusing tongues, Paul had to institute rules for their regulation for as long as they were in use. When tongues were abused, confused reigned in a congregation. (1 Cor. 14:7-11, 23, 33)

The Word of God needs no regulation or authentication, so when it was finally completed, the imperfect temporary gifts were taken away.]

 

[space_ghost]

well, have we about wrapped this one up… now, has anyone converted anybody else to their way of thinking?

 

[Prometheum_x]

This passage is referring to the completion of the Canon of Scripture simply because the same word is used in a different passage? I am missing the connection between the two passages. Could you explain your underlying thoughts for this connection?

seeker63:

Could you please explain why you believe that 1 Cor13:10 is referring to the completion of the Canon of Scripture?

[1 Cor. 13:10—“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part hsall be done away.” The phrase “that which is perfect” refers not to a person, but to a thing. The Greek noun TO TELEION is the nominative NEUTER singular from the noun TELEIOS, and is translated as “the perfect” or “the completed.” In James 1:25 the exact same word is used, where the phrase “the perfect law of liberty” refers to the Bible, the completed Canon of Scripture, written in Gentile languages.

So in other words, a more complete translation of 1 Cor. 13:10 would read, “But on that occasion (the completion of the Canon) when the completed (perfected) is come (a reference to the entire Bible), the fragmentary (temporary gifts) will become inoperative.”

Once the Canon was completed, it would serve the same purpose as the temporary gifts, such as apostleship, prophecy, healing, and tongues.The temporary spiritual gifts were designed to establish the authority of the pastors, apostles, and evangelists. The gift of prophecy was designed to convey doctrinal truths to a congregation, while tongues served to evangelize unbelievers who might be visiting, and to warn the Jews who had rejected the Messiah.].

 

[pnewton]

seeker63:

In James 1:25 the exact same word is used, where the phrase “the perfect law of liberty” refers to the Bible, the completed Canon of Scripture, written in Gentile languages.

So in other words, a more complete translation of 1 Cor. 13:10 would read, “But on that occasion (the completion of the Canon) when the completed (perfected) is come (a reference to the entire Bible), the fragmentary (temporary gifts) will become inoperative.”

What you propose is not a translation, but an insertion into scripture, ideas that the passage does not reflect. The “perfect law of liberty” is not the completed canon of scripture, written in Gentile languages." The canon was not even complete at that time (since James was writing). The passage is clearly meant to give instruct the people of that time on the dangers of hearing the word and not putting it into action.

The only point which is not a matter of personal opinion is that completed and perfected are both legitimate translations.

 

[TTM]

Hello!

sorry for a late reply; I didn’t realise I had a response.

beng:

TTM

Simple question.

Do you do tongues infront of believers without interpretation?

Because if you do, you violate the Bible. It doesn’t matter how many people favouring Charismatics tongue.

Actually, I’m not sure that I have the gift of tongues or not (I think I need somebody to validate it), and I’m rather shy about it so I personally am not inclined to speak in tongues, except when the “groaning” of the Holy Spirit (at least that’s what I assume it is - it feels much like a very strong longing for God) becomes so strong that words no longer suffice. Anyway, I think whether I do it or not is beside the point - it’s the fact that I do not have any problems with it, and you do, that is the issue.

Let me just say that we all appreciate your enthusiasm, but that some of us think that it is misguided. I do not believe that the Catholic Charismatic movement in legitimate form “violates the Bible”, as you have said. I agree, though, that any gifts need to be used prudently and that there should not be liturgical abuses of any sort.

Now, I think robertaf and a few others made a good point there, quoting from 1 Cor 14:

“2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him… 4. Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up”

The above clearly indicates that in this particular instance one speaks not to communicate to the congregation, but to speak to God personally. I’ll also quote Markerteacher, who clarifies this point:

1 Cor 14:28 says “But if there is no one to interpret, there should be silence in the assembly, each one speaking only to himself and to God”.

This says two things - first, that just because there is no one interpreting does not mean that the tongues do not exist. Second, this says silence “in the assembly”, as in, not speaking in tongues so that all can hear. Rather, one is indicated here to keep it to themselves, rather than speaking publicly.

Romans 8:26-27 (groanings of the Spirit) shows that one could have the gift of “silent” tongues, only between the individual and God. In this passage from Scripture, the Spirit seems to be the medium of communion with God.That’s what I mean when I say “private praise.” We’re just trying to express to God the inexpressible love He gives us.

Based on the above, I think you may be in danger of spreading a polemicised viewpoint, promoting division in the Church, and rejecting God’s gifts and will.

As I said though, I do believe that whoever speaks in tongues need to be prudent in using it. I do not think that speaking in tongues during Mass, for example, would be very wise (unless done very very quietly, perhaps), simply because it may alarm certain people who may not be used to it. The Charismatic group I am familiar with (I.C.P.E.) only prays in tongues during praise and worship sessions, which I think is prudent and good.

I think it’s apparent through many of the more experienced Charismatics who posted here that the movement is producing many good fruits, and that it is something that is started by God himself (at least the legitimate part of it). I think it’s wise that you are testing these things, but please be charitable and prudent in going about it.

God bless,
TTM

 

[TTM]

Hello again,

beng:

You are sounding like a Protestant by equaling the sacred Mass as Ritual.

I never intended to equated the Mass with a mindless ritual - my point was that many Catholics tend to see it that way. It’s sad, but true.

“fuller release of Holy Spirit”? OMG, You are venturing very dangerous path.

I’m not sure why you think so - perhaps it’s the terminology used here. It seems to me only fair that if you invite the Holy Spirit, he’ll come, especially because the Charismatic Renewal is of his doing.

“Having relationship with Jesus”? The infamous Protestant sugar coateed term? All Catholics already have relationship with Jesus. We EAT Him!!

Yes, but what would you say about those Catholics who don’t really understand or appreciate the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist? There are so many ex-Catholics who would have stayed in the Church had they had any appreciation of the beauty and greatness of the Eucharist. Also, many Catholics do not see Jesus as a loving friend, but perhaps a distant judge. My point here is that many Catholics in the Renewal that I have seen have that freedom of a person whose faith is real, and his/her own, rather than something that they practice for the sake of tradition or their parents. Their relationship with God is much more real, in that they can talk to God freely either in their life or during prayer time. Now, please don’t get me wrong. I am a fan of formal prayers, especially for public recitation, but, I just think that being able to relate to God in such a “real” way can not be a bad thing!

Anyone who seperate Baptism by Water and Baptism by Spirit has held for himself a heretical belief.

Agreed. That’s why I specifically said that it was a Baptism in name only (probably because it has a Protestant origin).

btw,

John Baptism =/= Christian Baptism (the one we have now)

Right. That’s why we’re called to Baptise in the name of Jesus (rather than, I suppose, in the name of John), using the formula that he gave us.

Only after Pentacosta that the Church actually started. So one can not and should not make an argument that because in Pentacost the Holy Spirit come than it is a differnt kind of baptism. ALL Christian Baptism nowadays has the same grace as what happens at Pentacost.

Agreed. As I have said earlier, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal does not claim to baptise people again. That would be, as you said, heretic.

It’s like coffee, you see. The Holy Spirit gives himself to us at our Baptism, and again at confirmation, but you need to do the stirring. Otherwise he sinks to the bottom of the cup and stays there.

Hope this helps. God bless y’all,
TTM

 

[Highwayman]

My personnal touch of the fullness of grace of knowing the power of the Holy Spirit began on March 15 at 7:07 pm at a truck stop at Lodi, Ohio better than 6 years ago. I was praying about my families falling away from the faith when a powerful white light surrounded me and a voice said “So that you know who I am”. Then with a touch on the neck I began a spiritual journey that caused me to question my Catholic faith but came back after my brother “who is charismatic” showed my the errors of fundamentalist veiws.
This is a very simple definition of what some of you know is the opening of a door that reveals a world that eye has not seen and ear has not heard.
I speak in tongues and have the gift of healing and prophecy and can see God’s hand in almost every moment of life now.
Thank God for my brother who stood in the gap for me at very cridiacal time for me, to show me the errors of christian fundamentalism.
He had the same awakining of God’s Holy Spirit in His life in the mid 60 and was almost pulled away from the Church by a catholic priest who was leaving the Church “father Ritter”.
Like all of us who have the Lazarus experiance, that is to say become servants of God by having Jesus wake us up, still need the Church to lose us and let us go. It is sad however that so many in the Church are still asleep and need to be woke up themselves so the Church can lose them and let them go.
You meet a lot of Marthas in the Church who think that outward works are the only way to please God and then the Marys in the Church who listen to Jesus words but have not know how to activate the Holy Spirit they recieved at baptism, then thank God for the Lazarus people who hear and Obey. God Bless

 

[robertaf]

Greetings

I am happy to see that this thread is still alive and well.

You are right. There are at least two types of tongues.

There is what we call “prayer language” when we pray in tongues. This gift is for our own edification and can be used when we do not know how to pray or for Praising God. We can pray this way silently, out loud or in song. I have seen folks praying in tongues when they were in a state we call, “slain in the Spirit”. We are in complete control of this gift and can pray in tongues or stop at our will.
I always use this gift at Mass and use it silently.

There is the gift of Tongues that requires an interpreter. This is like a prophetic tongue. This type of tongue should be tested and should always be orderly. The leader should direct that these tongues should be in proper order. We should always count our Blessings if we have a Priest participating when this gift is being manifested because the Gift of Discernment is one of the Pastoral gifts. This is not to say that lay folks do not have the gift of discernment, we can and should indeed pray for it but it is a genuine Pastoral gift given at Ordination. No better gift than this to test the spirits.

 

[tru_dvotion]

The Corinthian church was most disobedient and unruly back in Paul’s days. Yet the Charismatics of today hold up the Corinthian Church as something to be emulated. Defies reason.

 

[robertaf]

tru_dvotion:

The Corinthian church was most disobedient and unruly back in Paul’s days. Yet the Charismatics of today hold up the CorinthianChurch as something to be emulated. Defies reason.

I think you are misunderstanding why we, so often, quote from Corinthians. It is St Pauls letter to the Corinthians we quote from. His instructions for the Church. The letter is not written by the Corinthian Church but by St Paul.
It is true that St Paul spends time in his letter correcting the Corinthians but also teaching them.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_14.gif

 

[tru_dvotion]

robertaf:

I think you are misunderstanding why we, so often, quote from Corinthians. It is St Pauls letter to the Corinthians we quote from. His instructions for the Church. The letter is not written by the Corinthian Church but by St Paul.
It is true that St Paul spends time in his letter correcting the Corinthians but also teaching them.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_14.gif

**That is correct. But instead of following Paul’s instructions, charismatics fall into the same pits the Corinthians fell into. ie. All babbling at the same time with no interpretation anywhere in sight. Prayer language? How smug! How can anyone tell if they are praising God and not blaspheming? Because it feels right? PLEASE! Besides Paul did not say to follow your feelings. **Paul’s instruction was to TEST EVERYTHING! :tsktsk:

 

[TTM]

Hi again!

Highwayman:

You meet a lot of Marthas in the Church who think that outward works are the only way to please God and then the Marys in the Church who listen to Jesus words but have not know how to activate the Holy Spirit they recieved at baptism, then thank God for the Lazarus people who hear and Obey. God Bless

Thanks for the testimony. I’m sure many of us would find it encouraging.

I have one objection though. I have to disagree with you about the “Marys in the Church”. Our Lady, Mary was a Charismatic, in that she was present at Pentecost and spoke in tongues (which is a charism - gift from the Holy Spirit). Don’t forget that Mary is ultimately the very best example of a disciple that we have. Also, we do not “activate the Holy Spirit” - the Holy Spirit activates the Holy Spirit! We only ask for him to come to us, and if necessary, specifically ask for certain gifts of the Spirit, as listed in 1 Corinthians 12:

1 Cor 12 (RSV):
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

God bless,
TTM

 

[TTM]

Hi

tru_dvotion:

The Corinthian church was most disobedient and unruly back in Paul’s days. Yet the Charismatics of today hold up the CorinthianChurch as something to be emulated. Defies reason.

As pointed out by robertaf, the Charismatics do (and if not, should) try to go by Paul’s instructions. I think it’s been made quite clear in this thread (a few times over) that a legitimate Catholic Charismatic Renewal has nothing which contradicts the Church teachings or the Scriptures. If liturgical abuses, etc. do happen within the Charismatic movement, it is purely due to the failings of the human beings involved, and in no way invalidates the works of the Holy Spirit!

That is correct. But instead of following Paul’s instructions, charismatics fall into the same pits the Corinthians fell into. ie. All babbling at the same time with no interpretation anywhere in sight. Prayer language? How smug! How can anyone tell if they are praising God and not blaspheming? Because it feels right? PLEASE! Besides Paul did not say to follow your feelings. Paul’s instruction was to TEST EVERYTHING!

For the first point; I think this issue has been dealt with. As pointed out earlier, a deeper reading into the scriptures shows that there are occassions when people can pray in tongues without needing interpretation - namely, when they are talking to God alone. Of course, people must be prudent in their use. For example, it may be fine within a closed Charismatic prayer meeting, but it may perhaps be unsuitable for use in Mass.

As for the second point, it would be prudent to make sure that the Spirit is coming from the right source - the Holy Spirit. I have seen that in a “Life in the Spirit Seminar”, they would restate the baptisimal vows, about rejecting Satan and all his promises and works. Other than that, people can generally live a good Sacramental life (which usually gets a boost as the Holy Spirit moves in their lives), and trust that God will deliver us from evil.

I agree with the valid points you made. We must test everything, indeed - this applies to all our presumptions as well. God can act in most unexpected ways, and humble us. Let us do our best to be open to God, with prudence and discernment.

God bless you all,
TTM

 

[TTM]

Hi again,

I thought I’d write a quick testimony regarding the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, as it affected me.

As someone who was born in Japan (I’m Japanese), I was not raised as a Catholic, but lived a life of an average multi-religious (but not particularly spiritual) Japanese.

I came into contact with Christianity in New Zealand, where my family immigrated to. The initial experience had not been particularly positive. My mother, who was a Catholic earlier in her life, returned to the Church at an urging from a colleague of hers, who also wanted me to come to the Church. The talk about having my sins wiped clean by Baptism meant little to me (for I wasn’t quite sure what sins I had commited), and the insistance with which it was placed upon me was overburdening for a person my age (I was perhaps 12 or 13) (Although I credit my choice of becoming a Catholic to her; she insisted in the importance of the Real Presence in the Eucharist). Some of the Christians I met as school seemed sometimes worse than the average student, in their hypocrisy.

Thankfully, at university, I’d been able to consider Christianity and Catholicism seriously, and also to be convicted by my sinfulness, and the beauty of Catholicism and Christianity. I was baptised and confirmed in Easter 2003, and received my first communion (triple whammer! ). So far, so good.

However, up until this point, I had not really had a good idea about my faith. I saw it almost as a “do this and that, and I’ll be fine” system. It wasn’t until I became involved in a Charismatic community that I found myself in love with my faith, and with God. I became aware of the relational nature of the faith, and came to see it not as a good-works-based faith, but a good-works-producing one, the source of which was God himself. I also became aware of the amazing place Mary had in being our mother, intercessor (I had prayed the Rosary fairly regularly before, but with little idea of its workings), and a truely great gift from Jesus. I came to realise that I can do nothing good without the Holy Spirit working in me. Anything good had to flow out of my submission to the Holy Spirit, and making myself available for him to work at, in, and through me, rather than myself making an effort out of my own strength - a rather humbling experience, really!

So, for me at least, the Charismatic movement has had an immensely positive influence on me. The Holy Spirit enables me to appreciate every facet of my Catholic faith far more than I would be able to on my own, and to live a truly sacramental life.

I hope this has been encouraging for at least some of you. I am a bit of a newbie when it comes to being Catholic, but anybody, no matter how “experienced” at being a Catholic, could use some help from the Holy Spirit, I think. You don’t have to speak in tongues, if you don’t want to. You don’t have to lift up your hands, if you don’t want to. (actually, I hardly do either of them) The important thing is being open to the Holy Spirit, and any gifts that he might want to give you. He won’t come uninvited though; he’s a gentleman. “Take it easy, but take it”, I say.

God bless y’all!
TTM

 

[Pani_Rose]

If this has been posted please forgive me. I feel it applies ot the topic at hand. He is calling the Charismatic Renewal to the center of the church.

TO GROUP OF RENEWAL IN THE HOLY SPIRIT Pope John Paul II
CHARISMATIC RENEWAL IS GIFT TO THE CHURCH

On Thursday, 14 March, the Holy Father celebrated the 30th anniversary of the advent of the Charismatic Renewal in Italy when he received a delegation of members of this important ecclesial movement. In Italy the movement of Renewal in the Spirit has about 200,000 members in 1,800 communities or prayer groups. The Holy Father summed up the Charismatic Renewal in this wonderful way: “The Renewal in the Spirit can be considered a special gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church in our time. Born in the Church and for the Church, your movement is one in which, following the light of the Gospel, the members experience the living encounter with Jesus, fidelity to God in personal and community prayer, confident listening to his Word and a vital rediscovery of the Sacraments, not forgetting courage in trials and hope in hardship”. Here is a translation of the Pope’s Italian address.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

1. With great joy I welcome you, representatives of the Group of Renewal in the Holy Spirit, on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of your presence in Italy. I greet the coordinator of the National Service Committee and those who assist him.

I think back with pleasure to the meetings I have had with you in past years: from the first on the Solemnity of Christ the King in 1980, to our meeting in 1998, during the prayer vigil of the Meeting with Ecclesial Movements and New Communities on the eve of Pentecost. Nor can I forget the contribution of the “Renewal in the Spirit” during the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000, in particular helping young people and families, who from the beginning of my Pontificate I have constantly selected as priority targets for pastoral involvement.

I would also like to thank your directors for wishing to give to the Renewal a definite emphasis on collaboration with the hierarchy and with the leaders of other movements, associations and communities.

Holy Spirit leads to mature life in the Church

1. Yes! The Renewal in the Spirit can be considered a special gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church in our time. Born in the Church and for the Church, your movement is one in which, following the light of the Gospel, the members experience the living encounter with Jesus, fidelity to God in personal and community prayer, confident listening to his Word and a vital rediscovery of the Sacraments, not to mention courage in trials and hope in hardship.

Love for the Church and submission to her Magisterium, in a process of maturing in the Church supported by a solid permanent formation are relevant signs of your intention to avoid the risk of favouring, unwittingly, a purely emotional experience of the divine, an excessive pursuit of the “extraordinary” and a private withdrawal that may shrink from apostolic outreach.

continued