Detecting FAKE Tongues in Charismatic

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Glossa in Greek means literally tongue or language. St. Jerome used the word tongue when he translated the Bible from Greek. The other type of tongue is the one that cannot be understood, this in Greek is Xenolalia.

Your term did not come about until St. Jerorme used it.

Pani Rose
 
Greetings Church

I have been reading these posts and I think something should be addressed.

Some of the posters, and currently tru_dvotion, appear to post with great authority. They make very strong statements.

Please remember, these statements are only this persons opinion.
We also have direct quotes from the Holy Father. Please remember that the Holy Father has blessed and encouraged the Charismatic renewal. Since the beginning of the Renewal in the 1960s, this has been the case.

I became involved in the `Renewal in the late 1960s and have been activly involved ever since. I have been attending Charismatic Conferences for years. I have seen several Bishops who were also involved and have witnessed a Cardinal celebrate Masses and pray with us at Conferences. We have a liaison for the Charismatic Renewal from the Vatican who speaks as Conferences. Nearly every Diocese in America (at least) has a Charismatic Renewal liaison. They oversee the Renewal in the Diocese.

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Next, the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church did not get its start in the Protestant Church. This has been repeated over and over by people who will not see the truth.
As has been mentioned, the Holy Father, Pope John XIII prayed, “…as for a New Pentecost”. Christians all over the world joined in that prayer. God heard and answered.
As the Renewal spread (like wildfire!) across the country, the Holy Spirit fell on many non-Catholics who were in religions who rejected them. Many of these folks swarmed intoour Catholic Charismatic Prayer Groups. They had nowhere else to go, in many cases. Episcopal seminarians who became Charismatic, were kicked out of seminaries. A lot of these guys were accepted into Catholic seminaries.
I witnessed Protestant pastors who were kicked out of their churches, these included Baptists and Lutherans, who came to our prayer groups go out and started non-denominational churches in Southern California. Prior to that, we did not see non-denominational fellowships.
The Azusa Street revival and other Protestant groups have been mentioned. In fact, I have family members who were part of this and these were Protestant DENOMINATIONAL Pentecostalism and has never had anything to do with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

They are quite different and that would be quite obvious for anyone who had attended both. Granted, both experience spiritual gifts but that is where it ends.

You should all, read and digest personal opinions but in the long run, my feelings are it is best to listen to what the Holy Father says. That is the real authority God placed over us.
 
AMEN ROBERTA!

And it is important to remember as well, like you and I both said that all of this started: The Catholic Church understands that the Charismatic Renewal began over all, including Azusa Street which “tru_devotion” referenced, was a result of **Pope John XXIII’s prayer: "O Holy Spirit…pour forth the fullness of your gifts…renew your wonders in this our day as by a new Pentecost.” ** Nothing happens outside the Catholic Church, everything that happens in Christendom, comes as a result of the actions of the Catholic Church.

Similar to Roberta, I have 25 years in the Renewal. God is a God or propiety and order. That is the order of the Renwal. I can’t speak for what happens outside of the Church, but in the Church we follow the guidelines set by the Bisops of the Church and the International Charismatic Renewal and the National Charismatic Leadership.

Pani Rose

Pani Rose
 
**TTM, **

I was hoping to wrap this up, but I will not be able to do it today. I will post several responses, and your words will be displayed in Italics. The rest will have to be left for another day.

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal would never have happened had it not been for the Vatican II Council, which created a new spirit of openness and humility in the Catholic Church as she sought to discover afresh what the Holy Spirit was saying to her. Pope John XXIII composed a special prayer to be said daily throughout the world during the council, which asked the Holy Spirit to "renew your wonders in this, our day, as a new Pentecost?
***That is all well.But do you honestly believe, that the Holy Father was praying for the same spirit that came to us from Azusa Street? Man! How limited an assertion that is! ***
So, in other words, God is always ready to give us any charisms, but we are not always ready to receive them. I think also that the renewed openness of the Church through Vatican II and the humility of the Holy Father, John Paul II (who has made examination of the conscience for the entire church, and worked for reconciliation in the ways the Church had not lived up to the gospel, making over 90 public apologies) has allowed the Spirit to work in the Catholic Church.

**Ecumenism was never meant for the laity to dabble in! * *First, because lay conducted ecumenism attacks the Church’s character of exclusive mediator between Our Lord and men, which she possesses by divine mandate. Second, this kind of ecumenical gathering denies the exclusive nature of that mediation by encouraging inter-communion with other confessions.
**The inter-denominational message behind the Charismatic Movement also clashes with the Magisterium regarding Catholics participating at non-Catholic religious events. Protestants always like to say they are returning to the thinking of the original Church Fathers. But, since its earliest days the Church saw the danger of inter-denominational meetings and strongly condemned them. For two thousand years the Catholic teaching on what is the Church of Christ has been clear, and ample documentations demonstrate this. So then, why is all this confusion today? Lay involvement in ecumenism is a head-on collision with Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. It blasphemously implies that it is kinder than Christ. It quarrels with Divine Revelation while claiming fidelity to it. ‘Catholic Pentecostalism’” (pp. 90-1). **
 
*This in no way invalidates the movement. I think it’s something that the Church could work on, yes, but if we ask the Hoy Spirit (and not the other guy) to give us the gifts, I think that he would give them to us. Keep in mind Luke 11:13 - “If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”. It’s up to us to look after those gifts and to be prudent in their use. *
**You thinks so? Perhaps that is possible… if we are obedient and follow the self sacrifice and the emptying of the self, in order to make room for the Holy Spirit to become operational within us. Like the holy Catholic mystics have done throughout the ages, like St Teresa of Avila or Thomas Kempis (Imitation of Christ) But what happens, is you may not ask for the other guy, but that is what you will get with the instantaneous anointing in charismatic circles. Yes, the Father will give us if we ask him in truth (fulfilling the tenets of our faith) and in obedience to our superiors.
 
Can you tell us specifically what liturgical abuses you are referring to?

**Interestingly, I have not thought of the words of knowledge, and the prophesies, but now that you mentioned one, I have observed both of these right after communion, just after purifying the vessels. Theseare both violations of our Liturgical Laws.
So the following abuses occur during charismatic masses:
****- prancing up and down the stage in revivalist style, spewing a generous mouthful of “Amens” and encouraging audience participation.
****- celebrant with a nun waltzing around the stage (altar)

******- the homily is interrupted by loud, stamping applause… **

******- **performance liturgies

****- gospel music and Christian Rock music instead of sacred music

********- choreographed “worship in tongues” that takes during the “Holy Holy Holy” and also before the Our Father.

******- the “kiss of peace”, hugging and **dancing in the aisles,

******- during the consecration, at the elevation of the Host and at the elevation of the Chalice, “prayer in tongues” **

****- buzz of “tongues” replacing the consecration bells

****- words of knowledge and prophesies following communion.
 
Are you saying that the tongues were abolished because they became demonic? What evidence is there from the first centuries that suggest this? Please elaborate.
**In the second century, postapostolic Christianity faced a serious challenge ****from the prophetic crisis known as the “New Prophecy” (neva profhteiva) or Montanism. ****The Montanists believed the church was to be guided not by apostolic writings, but by direct guidance of the Holy Spirit. ****The early church rejected montanism: the understanding by the early church came from the standards set by the Old Testament for the evaluation of prophets. Before being checked, Montanism spread rapidly throughout the Greco-Roman world and quickly won many adherents, so that even the church father Tertullian was swept away by its claims. Such a sharp departure from accepted biblical norms of prophecy, especially in its content and manner of expression, caused great alarm. The crisis became so acute that the church struggled for decades to quell the swelling numbers of adherents to Montanism. **
The Montanists were the earliest forerunners of modern Pentecostalism.****
 
I think that people can be overly paranoid about Satan - he can have no power over you in these matters. We must be prudent and discerning, yes, and not act in paranoia which only blocks the Holy Spirit’s will to work in us.

**The Charismatic Movement virtually ignores Catholic teaching on the discernment of spirits. ****The Catholic teaching regarding discernment of spirits is replaced by open and enthusiastic support for anything and everything presented by the “movement” with seemingly little sincere prayer or critical analysis. Ignored are the warnings of St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, the two great Mystical Doctors of the Church: **

"Wherein the devil habitually meddles so freely [in revelations or extraordinary phenomena] that I believe it is impossible for a man not to be deceived by them, unless he strive to reject them, such an appearance of truth and security does the devil give them." (St. John of the Cross)

**Our Catholic church has a marvellous two-thousand year history of ****“discernment of spirits” contained in traditional ascetical and mystical ****theology that must be rigidly applied to such manifestations. Here we have ****the opposite: Laypeople lay hands on an individual, the individual gets a RUSH, and immediately proclaims that he is “full of the Spirit.” This is shocking presumption according to Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church teaches that we should never accept at face value anyapparent supernatural manifestation as something definitely coming from God. Never! – since it is too easy to be deceived by demonic forces. The agonysuffered by Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque and other authentic favored soulslaboring to determine the genuineness of their heavenly manifestations should be ample testimony.****I see none of these criteria applied to Charismatics. In fact, the ****Charismatics seem to act as if these teachings either do not exist, or do not ****apply to them. **
 
**When it come to prophesies, ONLY the local bishop ****has jurisdiction on matters of the supernatural, can make the final judgment of the Church as to what spirit a supernatural phenomena comes from: one’s own spirit, God’s Spirit, or a Demonic Spirit. ********Every validly consecrated bishop receives his authority and power (John 20:21-23; Luke 22:19-20) through an apostolic succession of bishops that can be traced all the way back to the twelve Apostles who received their authority and power from Christ, Himself. **

**(2 Cor.5:20; Acts 1:24-26; 14:22; 20:28; 1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:5; Mk. 16:15-16; Jn. 16:13-14; 20:21-23; 14:16,17,26; Mt. 18:17; 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 3:7; Is. 22:22: Lk. 10:16; Eph. 4:11-12; Heb. 13:7; 1 John 4:6) **

**Encyclical “Stais comnitum” of Leo XII-1896 (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott, Page 289) **

**According to this declaration the Episcopal power is: **

**"An ordinary power, that is, it is associated with the Episcopal office; an immediate power, that is it is not practiced at the order of a superior, but in the bishop’s own name. Thus bishops are not delegated (agents) and so are not vicars (representatives) of the pope, but they are independent pastors of the flocks entrusted to them, even though they are subordinate to the pope. A power appointed by God for the Apostles (on the ground of divine ordinance, whether in the immediate commission of Christ, or on the direction of the Holy Spirit — Acts 20, 26) have passed on their pastoral office to the bishops. The bishops are the successors of the Apostles, not in such a manner that an individual bishop is a successor of an individual Apostle, but that the bishops in their totality are successors of the College of Apostles. **

**“This is a true pastoral power, as it embraces all the ecclesiastical powers to the exercise of the office, the power to legislate, to judge and to punish. It is a power which is limited locally and materially, since it extends only to a definite segment of the Church, and is circumscribed by the Papal power which is superior to it. Matters of causae maiores (universal importance), touching the welfare of the whole Church, are reserved to the Holy Fathers.” (Dr. Ott) **
 
Hi,
I saw your posts, but I did not read them. I am still answering your #147-48 posts. I will respond until it is feasible, but if I am bombarded with new post while I am responding to your previous posts, I will not have the time for a dialog. If that is your intent, please say so, because it should have been obvious from my last two posts, that I have not even began answering you. So please bear with me for a few days. My husband had a heart attack 2 weeks ago and my time is very precious.
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I’m sorry, I guess it wasn’t obvious to me. I figured it would do no harm to start answering your claims. I’ll leave it up to the others to reply to you for a while, but please keep in mind that some of what you say are indeed presumed opinions, which may or may not be completely valid.

I’m sorry to hear about your husband. I would encourage all who are reading this to say a few words of prayer for him. At the same time though, I would encourage you, tru_devotion, to perhaps give yourself a little time to settle down, because you could risk acting out of emotion rather than charity. I don’t mean to be telling you what to do, and I hope I don’t come across that way, but I just feel that maybe a little prudence would serve a more objective dialogue.

God bless,
TTM
 
*… it’s possible that somebody may feel that the Holy Spirit is urging them to read a certain passage. If that person has been praying to the Holy Spirit to use him/her, I don’t see that this would be a problem. *

Yes it is possible, but not each and every time somebody opens up the Bible! Then the guessing game begins for the common thread. Whatpresumptuous exercise! T**his is tempting God to do magic tricks. **
I think also that God can work in the laity, and Vatican II’s encouragement of the active involvement of the laity is a recognition of this. ****

Well of course, but not in the role of distributing pan-sacraments, discerning spirits, and/or working contrary to Catholic Dogma/Canon Law.

*Of course these things must be done in obedience to the Bishop, but the gift of discernment are not solely limited to them. You may notice that the gift of discernment is a charism also, as it states in 1 Cor 12:10: “…and to another discernings of spirits”. *

Where does it say anybody can discern? Just re-read your paragraph, and think it over… because there is a contradiction here.

Also the amount of praise and thanksgiving to Jesus which happens in these meetings themselves are a testimony to the workings of the Holy Spirit, since 1 Cor 12:3 says, “Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.”

**Well… actually, it would be rather interesting to have the correct theological explanation for this. Because, in fact, there was an incident involving Jesus, when a demon possessed girl began praising God and created a disturbance, which Jesus rebuked. Even the devils have to bend their knees before Christ, so I would not be so quick to take 1 Cor 12:3 quite so literally. **

…* I also think that there needs to be more openness in the part of the more “traditional” Catholics (I place quote marks around the word,*

I am obedient to the teachings of my faith and to the Magisterium. Is that traditional? The antithesis of obedience is disobedience. So then… those who are not traditional are they disobedient?
 
the Charismatics I know seem to me to be more authentic Catholics than most!

For a movement to be truly of God, it would have to be in conformity with the traditional teaching of the Church. Here of course is where the Charismatic movement fails, as there is nothing Catholic about seeking holiness from heretical, non-sacramental sects.
Yet the early church, which the Charismatic Movement claims to emulate was most committed to doctorine.
’That you may charge some that they teach no other doctorine" 1 Tm 1:3
In 2 Timothy we are told to: **
Hold to sound doctrine (1:13).
Teach sound doctrine (2:2).
Abide in sound doctrine (3:14**).
Preach** sound doctrine (4:1-2).

From these verses we see that doctrine is vital and indispensable.
But instead of sound doctrine, Pentecostalism encourages extraordinary phenomena. So it bears striking resemblance to New Age:
1) pan-denominational with non Catholic unifying factor, “baptism in the spirit”,
2) based on EXPERIENCE,
3) sneers at any traditional Catholic teaching that stands in opposition to it.
**Are charismatics really more authentic than most Catholics? I would really like to meet any charismatic who faithfully follows the Imitation of Christ by Thomas Kempis, or the True Devotion to Mary, according to St Louis de Monfort. The truth is, to follow any of these devotions requires far more humility and obedience than a charismatic would be willing to give. **
**
 
**"I, (Name), a faithless sinner, renew and ratify today in thy hands the vows of my Baptism; I renounce forever Satan, his pomps and works; and I give myself entirely to Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Wisdom, to carry my cross after Him all the days of my life, and to be more faithful to Him than I have ever been before. In the presence of all the heavenly court I choose thee this day for my Mother and Mistress. I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure, for the greater glory of God in time and in eternity. **

**"Receive, 0 benignant Virgin, this little offering of my slavery, in honor of, and in union with, that subjection which the Eternal Wisdom deigned to have to thy maternity; in homage to the power which both of you have over this poor sinner, and in thanksgiving for the privileges with which the Holy Trinity has favored thee. I declare that I wish henceforth, as thy true slave, to seek thy honor and to obey thee in all things. **

**"O admirable Mother, present me to thy dear Son as His eternal slave, so that as He has redeemed me by thee, by thee He may receive me! 0 Mother of mercy, grant me the grace to obtain the true Wisdom of God; and for that end receive me among those whom thou lovest and teachest, whom thou leadest, nourishest and protectest as thy children and thy slaves. **

**“0 faithful Virgin, make me in all things so perfect a disciple, imitator and slave of the Incarnate Wisdom, Jesus Christ thy Son, that I may attain, by thine intercession and by thine example, to the fullness of His age on earth and of His glory in Heaven. Amen.” **
 
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TTM:
Hi,

I’m sorry, I guess it wasn’t obvious to me. I figured it would do no harm to start answering your claims. I’ll leave it up to the others to reply to you for a while, but please keep in mind that some of what you say are indeed presumed opinions, which may or may not be completely valid.

I have not red the other posts, it took long enough to answer some of yours😉

I’m sorry to hear about your husband. I would encourage all who are reading this to say a few words of prayer for him. At the same time though, I would encourage you, tru_devotion, to perhaps give yourself a little time to settle down, because you could risk acting out of emotion rather than charity. I don’t mean to be telling you what to do, and I hope I don’t come across that way, but I just feel that maybe a little prudence would serve a more objective dialogue.

Thank you for the prayers, it was a mild episode, but for now he has to take it easy, so I am doing the work of two people in the house and the garden. So I really don’t have a lot of time to carry on with this topic. Please don’t be concerned about me having to settle down,:confused: as I am quite well, just a bit busier than usual. I answered your comments and it took some time, you made a few statements that needed a closer look.

I am not sure how it is possible to carry on an objective dialog on a subjectice topic such as this? One of us is an obvious convert and the other is a survivor who by the grace of God managed to escape. I pray for the Holy Spirit to enlighten all those, who are caught up in it. God bless you all.
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**Hello TTM, **

I red your posts, #151-153 and I am beginning to answer some of your comments.

Quote:Yes, I’m aware of this. However, this does not have much to do with the issue at hand here. The issue of salvation is one that is highly personal - if they are truly ignorant and unaware of the Catholic Church being the one set up by Jesus on Peter, the rock, and in seeking the truth, honestly believe that they are in the right, God will honour that.

This has EVERYTHING to do with this, and for several reasons. Your reasoning is faulty, because you are applying the Church’s teaching on those outside of the faith out of context. Let me explain:

The protestant sects are none of them unaware of the Catholic Church, so we cannot compare them to somebody ignorant and unaware of the Catholic Church being the one set up by Jesus on Peter… So first they are not ignorant and they are not unaware. Now if they are seeking the truth, and as you said, and honestly believe they are right, for sure God will honor that and not deprive them his salvation. But, and here is your mistake, God will not honor the Catholic clergy and religious, who disobediently goes into these religious services and gets an anointing with one of their pseudo sacraments! These sects are not on the same footing with the Catholic Church and although they contain some of the truth, they do not contain all the truth, not as the Catholic Church does. They have, in many instances bowed down to demons in their heresies. So when somebody goes from us to them for an anointing, one will surely get infected with a false spirit.
 
Quote: I do not see why God can not work within them in any way. I have a few Protestant friends who are much closer to Christ than many of the Catholics I have seen. As Catholics, we have so much that have been given to us, and yet so few of us are aware of the treasures of the Church, or realise wholeheartedly the relational nature of our faith, which is based on a relational being, our triune God. I would say that by the virtue of their love, some Protestants are in better standing with God than some Catholics who neglect what they have been given, for he expects much from those who he gives much. I don’t see why God would withhold good things from our Christian brothers, if they honestly and earnestly ask for them.

You are correct, God does not withhold good things from them, if they are earnestly seeking him. But you are wrong with your observation of Catholics. They might not be as showy, some of which is cultural, but many of them are very devout. I certainly see more of the quietly obedient folk lining up for Saturday afternoon confession then I see people from the prayer group. In my observation, the regular Catholic is more sacramentalized. Also, do not be misled by the exuberance of your protestant friends. That is all surface stuff. Have you heard of a single saint (other than Martin Luther!:rolleyes: ) or a saint to be from a protestant denomination? Why does all that fervor and love of God has not produced a single saint in 500 years? Why is there not a protestant Mother Theresa? That is because they are inferior in what they possess and the Holy Spirit does not operate fully (only partly, because after all they have only part of the truth) in protestant denominations as he does within the Catholic Church.

Quote: Perhaps the issue at hand here is not whether or not any good things could start from outside the Catholic Church, but the snare of our Catholic pride which prevents some of us from admitting that this may be a possibility.

**That is not pride TTM, that is an incredible gift an honor. It is false humility to denigrate the Catholic faith so! This is one of the unfortunate results of all this lay involvement with ecumenism. They have made you feel inferior, when in fact the opposite is true! We should be proud of our Catholic heritage, of the many martyrs who suffered, and still suffer in some parts of the world, for our faith. **
 
Firstly, not all tongues are necessarily articulate and in the form of a language, as I understand it. I think this has been discussed previously. Angelic tongues, as mentioned in 1 Cor. 13:1 (“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.”), may not follow our idea of a “proper” language. Afterall, they are spiritual beings, without a need to speak. I would not be surprised if these tongues were simply expressions of spiritual longing for God, as is often the case in the Charismatic Renewal.

TTM, I disagree. How could angelic tongues be the same as the tongues in the Charismatic Renewal? They have been referred by Paul as “angelic”, therefore not of this world. It would be as impossible to translate this into human speech as it would be to describe what heaven is like. Several of our saints have seen certain parts of heaven, and none of them were able to describe with human words what they have seen and experienced. For angelic tongues to manifest through human speech would be just as impossible. So when the Holy Spirit prays inside the human soul, that is so removed from our sphere of comprehension, that we cannot hear it nor perceive it, except for a heart wrenching longing for God.
 
Secondly, some Charismatics do speak in valid human languages, as explained by a number of people in this thread previously. I have heard a very similar story to what was explained before regarding people who happen to wonder into a Charismatic prayer group and hear words of praise in their native tongue, which the group would have had no way of knowing. We also hear of many Saints who experience something similar.

What those saints experienced was rare and truly a gift from the Holy Spirit, and only showed up at a certain point of the contemplative lifestyle. Your everyday charismatic is not in the same league after a few weeks of Life in the Spirit Seminar! No, their tongues are not the same at all. In reality, there is no course or magic formula for sainthood. No self help book or course will take you there. St. Paul** reminds the Corinthians, we should all seek after the greatest gifts of the Holy Spirit, the infused theological virtues of faith, hope and charity. (1Cor. 13) The Holy Spirit will without a doubt come to the aid of His Church with an outpouring of the true “charismata” or extraordinary graces, in proportion to its spiritual needs and those of its children as He sees fit; but to desire such extraordinary experiences for oneself, will, in the words of the great mystical doctor, St. John of the Cross, more often than not be displeasing to God:

“Some spiritual persons, as we said, convince themselves that the curiosity to know of certain things is good, because God sometimes answers these petitions. They think this conduct is good and pleasing…Yet the truth is that, regardless of God’s reply, such behavior is neither good nor pleasing to God. Rather, He is displeased; not only displeased but frequently angered and deeply offended…The reason lies in the illicitness of transcending the natural boundaries God has established for the governing of rational creatures…A desire to transcend them, hence, is unlawful, and to desire to investigate and arrive at knowledge in a supernatural way is to go beyond the natural limits…” (St. John**** of the Cross, The Ascent of Mt. Carmel, bk.2, ch.21, par. 1)

The “knowledge” referred by the saint would include the desire to “feel” or “touch” the Holy Spirit’s power, rather than the striving for the true and loving indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which all faithful Catholics in the state of grace possess through their reception of the sacraments, the true channels of graces and gifts. The illicit desire of those caught up in the Charismatic Movement for charismas transcends and violates the boundaries God has set. **
 
Since ancient times, this babbling has been a practice of pagan spirituality, mystery cults, and mediumistic religions, etc. and has historically been considered either as of a pathological nature or as a sign of spirit possession. Circumcision was a pagan practice, yet it was a valid Jewish custom. Fundamentalists accuse us of being pagan upon seeing the images of Mary with the child Jesus, citing multiple pagan sources (See Catholic Answers tract, "Is Catholicism Pagan? [catholic.com/library/Is_…icism_Pagan.asp](http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_...icism_Pagan.asp)*). "The point being that, there are many similarities between the pagan religions and the Christian religion, simply because (and this is my assumption) the devil wants to be like God. If it has “historically been considered either as of a pathological nature or as a sign of spirit possession”, this would invalidate the original Pentecost. *

But as you are well aware, and I am not referring to Hollywood here, any priest involved in exorcism will tell you, that ALL diabolical possession by the devil involves tongues.
Regarding c****ircumcision, it was a sign and a hygienic necessity for the Jews wondering the desert for forty years. I would disagree with the notion that it was pagan. I red the link you provided, and I must say, none of its content relates to the topic we are discussing.

You are correct saying the Devil imitates, he imitates the tongues of Pentecost, But there is a big difference. At Pentecost, the tongues were understood by all those who heard it, in fact that was the purpose, so all, who were present would be witness to the wonder that unlearned fishermen spoke dozens of legitimate languages and they were able to hear the Gospel proclaimed in their own tongue. But people have no clue what is being said when a group of charismatics break into tongues at a prayer meeting. There is no understanding of anything, it is just a Babel like confusion. I am fully aware, charismatics claim that they know somebody, who knows somebody, who recognized a language, but you know… people speak many languages, and how do you know what they heard is not a language that that person speaks? (Which would make this type of “tongues” a fraud.) Besides I speak more than one language myself, English is not even my mother tongue, yet I never ever heard anyone praising God in any of the languages I understand… even though, I was involved with the “renewal” for close to 15 years. My personal feeling is that this is a false claim and has not been well tested or documented. However, I know of one test, when someone prayed in a foreign language, to test the “interpretation”. Guess what? The interpretation was not even close! In fact, it was totally different than what the guy said during the prayer meeting!
 
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