Detecting FAKE Tongues in Charismatic

[Pani_Rose]

Three special missionary projects

1. On this special occasion I desire ideally to bless three projects, which you have launched, that send out groups and communities of the Renewal in the Spirit “from the Upper Room” with generous missionary ardour.

I am referring first of all to your support of the implantatio Ecclesiae in Moldavia, in close collaboration with the “Regina Pacis” Foundation of the Archdiocese of Lecce, establishing a missionary community associated with the Diocese of Chişinău. I greet with affection the pastors of those Ecclesial Communities, Archbishop Cosmo Francesco Ruppi and Bishop Anton Coşa, and the other bishops taking part in this meeting.

Another important project is your work of spiritual guidance in Marian shrines, privileged places of the Spirit, that gives you the opportunity to offer pilgrims ways of deepening their faith and spiritual reflection.

Then there is the “Burning Bush” project which is an invitation to ongoing adoration, day and night. You have wished to promote this appropriate initiative to help the faithful “return to the Upper Room”, so that united in the contemplation of the Eucharistic mystery, they may intercede by means of the Spirit for the full unity of Christians and for the conversion of sinners.

These are three different areas of apostolic activity in which your experience can provide a very providential witness. May the Lord guide your labours and make your resolutions bear abundant fruit for yourselves and for the Church.

Evangelizing activities foster constant growth in holiness

1. In the final analysis, all your evangelizing activities tend to foster in the People of God constant growth in holiness. Indeed, holiness is the priority in every age, and therefore also in our own time. The Church and the world need saints, and we ourselves become holier the more we allow the Holy Spirit to configure us to Christ. This is the secret of the regenerating experience of the “outpouring of the Spirit”, a typical experience that defines the process of growth proposed for the members of your groups and communities. With all my heart I hope that Renewal in the Spirit may be a true “gymnasium” in the Church for prayer, asceticism, virtue and holiness.

In a special way continue to love and spread love for the prayer of praise, the form of prayer that recognizes more immediately that God is God; praises him for his own sake, gives him glory for who he is, long before thinking of what he does (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 2639).

In our time that is so hungry for hope, make the Holy Spirit known and loved. Help bring to life that “culture of Pentecost”, that alone can make fruitful the civilization of love and friendly coexistence among peoples. With fervent insistence, never tire of praying “Come Holy Spirit! Come! Come!”.

May the Blessed Mother of Christ and of the Church, the Virgin at prayer in the Upper Room, always be with you! May the Blessing I cordially impart to you, and to all the members of Renewal of the Holy Spirit, also go with you!

Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
20 March 2002, page 3

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[TTM]

Pani Rose:

If this has been posted please forgive me. I feel it applies ot the topic at hand. He is calling the Charismatic Renewal to the center of the church.

That was very relevant. Thank you , and no it had not been posted here previously.

A couple of things I really liked:

• The “Burning Bush project”; the call for “ongoing adoration”. For me, adoration has been incredibly fulfilling and… just really incredible. I try to go every night, if I could (I’m fortunate to be living right next to a chapel!). I would recommend it to every Catholic to go as often as you can. It recharges your spiritual batteries, and God’s peace will flow through you.
• “…a vital rediscovery of the Sacraments”. Hey, that’s what I was saying! Yup, I’d second that.

Blessings,
TTM

 

[robertaf]

Good Morning Church

Good Morning Pani Rose,

Thank you for that posting. It has been a long time since I read it and it always encourages me.

The timing was so perfect. I had just the perfect person to copy and email it to.

Thank you again.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Hi TTM,

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Originally I quoted you, but the post was too long to be displayed. So reference your last post and apply it to my response. Thanks.

**-Should, but they do not. And the reason for it is this: The current Charismatic Renewal started OUTSIDE the Church. I am well aware, that charismatics quote the scriptures and hold up the first Christian communities as an example. In truth, each and every contemporary charismatic apostle began his/her ministry under the anointing of protestant ministers and protestant lay people. List them and I will show you this statement is TRUE. They admittedly lusted after the anointing Pentecostals seemed to have and they wanted the same thing. I heard this over and over again as one keynote speaker followed the other in the charismatic conference circuit. So where it came from is problem #1. **

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**The other problem is this: no Catholic tradition exists that could be applied during a charismatic prayer meeting for discernment. No, in practice, they follow the protestant model. **

As you stated, there are liturgical abuses during charismatic masses. But those abuses that make the mass charismatic! You remove the abuses and the mass is no longer a charismatic. Charismatic mass without liturgical abuse is an oxymoron.

**-How could false tongues, one that has been “learned”, therefore it is nothing more than human babble, any linguist can explain that, or demonic tongues, which I am sure happens quite often, be considered acceptable in any Catholic devotion? Most false religions use tongues, there is nothing new there. How can ANYONE ensure, none gets inside or gets placed in the forefront by some misguided participant? There are no safeguards in existence for that, and that is why the use of tongues were abolished in the mass during the first centuries. **

-Says who and how? Because you denounced Satan and all his works at the Life in the Spirit Seminar? How gullible can one get? The human soul can hold the Holy Spirit in one moment and the evil spirit in the next! You can renounce Satan daily, you can put on the amour of God all you want, but you may still allow the evil one to operate within you… in fact we do that each and every time we sin.

I have not seen any prudence or any discernment in charismatic circles. Every time someone opens the Bible and reads from it, it is (praise Jesus!), because it is perceived as a message for that particular prayer meeting. This is a pagan and superstitious practice, and everybody is oblivious to it. Besides, who discerns? The group leader? Who is he? He is no bishop! In Catholic Tradition, the diocesan bishop is the one who is called to discern the spirits and not any lay person!

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Quote:
Christianity does not tremble before discussion but before ignorance. - Pope Saint Pius X

I fully agree with that one, and may I add, it would be most prudent for the charismatics to take that to heart.

 

[TTM]

Hello!

Hi TTM,

Originally I quoted you, but the post was too long to be displayed. So reference your last post and apply it to my response. Thanks.

Sure, no prob.

-Should, but they do not. And the reason for it is this: The current Charismatic Renewal started OUTSIDE the Church.

It is true that the Charismatic movement began outside the confines of the Catholic Church. However, this does not invalidate the whole movement, as the Spirit can act outside the Catholic Church in other Christians as well. If the Holy Spirit could act in the unbaptised gentiles, as told in the book of Acts, I don’t see why he would not act in our separated brethren of the same faith!

I am well aware, that charismatics quote the scriptures and hold up the first Christian communities as an example. In truth, each and every contemporary charismatic apostle began his/her ministry under the anointing of protestant ministers and protestant lay people. List them and I will show you this statement is TRUE. They admittedly lusted after the anointing Pentecostals seemed to have and they wanted the same thing. I heard this over and over again as one keynote speaker followed the other in the charismatic conference circuit. So where it came from is problem #1.

Again, same thing. Let me just quote from ccr.org.uk/ccrstart.htm:

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal would never have happened had it not been for the Vatican II Council, which created a new spirit of openness and humility in the Catholic Church as she sought to discover afresh what the Holy Spirit was saying to her. Pope John XXIII composed a special prayer to be said daily throughout the world during the council, which asked the Holy Spirit to "renew your wonders in this, our day, as a new Pentecost?

Many internal reforms, covering every area of the Church’s life and understanding of herself, resulted from the Council. The way for the acceptance of the charisms was also prepared for, by an inclusion in Lumen Gentium, which accepted that the biblical charisms were potentially always available and not confined to apostolic times.

So, in other words, God is always ready to give us any charisms, but we are not always ready to receive them. I think also that the renewed openness of the Church through Vatican II and the humility of the Holy Father, John Paul II (who has made examination of the conscience for the entire church, and worked for reconciliation in the ways the Church had not lived up to the gospel, making over 90 public apologies) has allowed the Spirit to work in the Catholic Church.

The other problem is this: no Catholic tradition exists that could be applied during a charismatic prayer meeting for discernment. No, in practice, they follow the protestant model.

This in no way invalidates the movement. I think it’s something that the Church could work on, yes, but if we ask the Hoy Spirit (and not the other guy) to give us the gifts, I think that he would give them to us. Keep in mind Luke 11:13 - “If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”. It’s up to us to look after those gifts and to be prudent in their use.

[continued…]

 

[TTM]

As you stated, there are liturgical abuses during charismatic masses. But those abuses that make the mass charismatic! You remove the abuses and the mass is no longer a charismatic. Charismatic mass without liturgical abuse is an oxymoron.

I’m actually not particularly well informed about the liturgical requirements. I personally don’t see any problems if the Masses are advertised as being Charismatic, and speak in tongues (perhaps quietly) and give words of knowledge then. However, if there are any requirements that the Church imposes, which the Charismatics do not obey, then I think that they should be obedient to the Church. Can you tell us specifically what liturgical abuses you are referring to?

How could false tongues, one that has been –learned”, therefore it is nothing more than human babble, any linguist can explain that, or demonic tongues, which I am sure happens quite often, be considered acceptable in any Catholic devotion? Most false religions use tongues, there is nothing new there. How can ANYONE ensure, none gets inside or gets placed in the forefront by some misguided participant? There are no safeguards in existence for that, and that is why the use of tongues were abolished in the mass during the first centuries.

I don’t agree with the tongues that have been “taught” either. I think that the gifts should flow naturally without any intervention. People may be led to the Holy Spirit through others, but they can not teach what the Holy Spirit teaches!

Are you saying that the tongues were abolished because they became demonic? What evidence is there from the first centuries that suggest this? Please elaborate.

I think that people need to be following a good sacramental life, going to confession and communion often, and be prayerful about all of these. I don’t think that the people who ask the Holy Spirit given these conditions would receive any “gifts” from the “other side”. Would God, who urges us to ask him for gifts, give us a snake (or allow a snake to be given to us) when we ask for fish? I think that people can be overly paranoid about Satan - he can have no power over you in these matters. We must be prudent and discerning, yes, and not act in paranoia which only blocks the Holy Spirit’s will to work in us.

Says who and how? Because you denounced Satan and all his works at the Life in the Spirit Seminar? How gullible can one get? The human soul can hold the Holy Spirit in one moment and the evil spirit in the next! You can renounce Satan daily, you can put on the amour of God all you want, but you may still allow the evil one to operate within youÄ in fact we do that each and every time we sin.

Yes, but when we sin, we’re at fault. When we ask God for gifts, and we are filled with the spirit from the other side, God is at fault. Nope, we can’t have that!

[continued…]

 

[TTM]

I have not seen any prudence or any discernment in charismatic circles. Every time someone opens the Bible and reads from it, it is (praise Jesus!), because it is perceived as a message for that particular prayer meeting. This is a pagan and superstitious practice, and everybody is oblivious to it. Besides, who discerns? The group leader? Who is he? He is no bishop! In Catholic Tradition, the diocesan bishop is the one who is called to discern the spirits and not any lay person!

I guess the point is that any passage in the Bible speaks to us in any given day. Apart from that, it’s possible that somebody may feel that the Holy Spirit is urging them to read a certain passage. If that person has been praying to the Holy Spirit to use him/her, I don’t see that this would be a problem. As well as this, they would have asked the Holy Spirit to work in the meeting. They are acting then in faith, rather than superstition. Protestants may claim the same about the Brown scapular, for example, but we know better that God’s grace works in amazing and often unexpected ways.

I think also that God can work in the laity, and Vatican II’s encouragement of the active involvement of the laity is a recognition of this. Of course these things must be done in obedience to the Bishop, but the gift of discernment are not solely limited to them. You may notice that the gift of discernment is a charism also, as it states in 1 Cor 12:10: “…and to another discernings of spirits”.

Also the amount of praise and thanksgiving to Jesus which happens in these meetings themselves are a testimony to the workings of the Holy Spirit, since 1 Cor 12:3 says, “Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.”

Christianity does not tremble before discussion but before ignorance. - Pope Saint Pius X

I fully agree with that one, and may I add, it would be most prudent for the charismatics to take that to heart.

I hope that this discussion is helpful to some of you, who may be wondering about the validity of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. I think so too, that Charismatics do need to be prudent, but I also think that there needs to be more openness in the part of the more “traditional” Catholics (I place quote marks around the word, because the Charismatics I know seem to me to be more authentic Catholics than most!).

Perhaps it would be helpful also to pray to the Holy Spirit to help us discern the issue at hand. rather than to try and figure all this out by our own strength. I’ll write up a simple prayer (or ask the Holy Spirit to!), so feel free to recite it (if you approve it ).

God bless,
TTM

 

[TTM]

Prayer to the Holy Spirit, with Mary’s Intercession

Holy Spirit, love of the Father and the Son, we ask you now to be with us and live in us in a deeper way. We ask you to grant us your wisdom and discernment, that we may know you better and consecrate ourselves to you to work in us and through us, for your glory and for the good of the Holy Mother Church. Amen.

Mary, you were present in the upper chamber when the Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost. Help us to imitate your example, that we may be open to the workings of the Holy Spirit in our lives and pray for his coming with the same fervour. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed if the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Hi TTM,

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**It will take a bit of time for me to respond, so please bear with me. Your first point was, and I will paraphrase, that there is nothing wrong with taking a contemporary protestant movement and adapting it into the Church. I have to disagree. **

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The following is my first reason:

**Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation is available only through the Catholic Church: “The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: ‘For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.’” Pg. 215, #816 **

The 1994 catechism reaffirms the existing teaching of Vatican II, that salvation can be obtained only through the Roman Catholic Church. The catechism leaves no doubt that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation:
"…all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…" Pg. 224, #846

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**Past popes have taught this doctrine, as have previous catechisms and church fathers. But here is a recent example… On May 7, 2001, Pope John Paul II told 2,000 youth in Damascus that “you cannot be a Christian if you reject the Church founded on Jesus Christ.” **

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church ALONE, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.”

(846)** How are we to understand this? This means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:**

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (Page 244)

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So the suggestion, that it is right to learn from such vastly inferior source goes against not only logic, but it also violates Catholic Scripture and Tradition.

 

[tru_dvotion]

**The use of “tongues” as we understand as ecstatic or semi-ecstatic babbling, **

**1. has nothing to do with the authentic, articulate language recognized by the Church as the miraculous “gift of tongues” as recorded in the first letter of St. Paul to the Church at Corinth, **

**2. Or with the great miracle of Pentecost, as recorded by St. Luke in the book of Acts. **

**Since ancient times, this babbling has been a practice of pagan spirituality, mystery cults, and mediumistic religions, etc. and has historically been considered either as of a pathological nature or as a sign of spirit possession. **

**Catholics must believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ, and throughout the ages unfailingly and indefectibly has taught the truths of faith without error. **

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**Therefore, we should question very seriously the contention that the “Pentecostal experience” is a true movement of the Holy Spirit, since it originated among sects and movements which explicitly denied many divinely revealed dogmas of the Church. **

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No Catholic should hold that the Holy Spirit derives or activated from sources outside of the Catholic Church. No Catholic should submit himself to rituals, that are not of ecclestical or apostolic in origin.
Would the Holy Spirit be a part to error? Would he really conceal or deny to the one true Church for 2000 years something which, “should have been a normative experience” for all baptized Christians?

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[TTM]

Howdy,

Hi TTM,

It will take a bit of time for me to respond, so please bear with me.

No problem.

Your first point was, and I will paraphrase, that there is nothing wrong with taking a contemporary protestant movement and adapting it into the Church.

Yup, that’s what I said. If it comes from God, of course.

I have to disagree.

The following is my first reason:

Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation is available only through the Catholic Church

Yes, I’m aware of this. However, this does not have much to do with the issue at hand here. The issue of salvation is one that is highly personal - if they are truly ignorant and unaware of the Catholic Church being the one set up by Jesus on Peter, the rock, and in seeking the truth, honestly believe that they are in the right, God will honour that.

I do not see why God can not work within them in any way. I have a few Protestant friends who are much closer to Christ than many of the Catholics I have seen. As Catholics, we have so much that have been given to us, and yet so few of us are aware of the treasures of the Church, or realise wholeheartedly the relational nature of our faith, which is based on a relational being, our triune God. I would say that by the virtue of their love, some Protestants are in better standing with God than some Catholics who neglect what they have been given, for he expects much from those who he gives much. I don’t see why God would withhold good things from our Christian brothers, if they honestly and earnestly ask for them.

Perhaps the issue at hand here is not whether or not any good things could start from outside the Catholic Church, but the snare of our Catholic pride which prevents some of us from admitting that this may be a possibility.

[continued…]

 

[TTM]

The use of “tongues” as we understand as ecstatic or semi-ecstatic babbling,

1. has nothing to do with the authentic, articulate language recognized by the Church as the miraculous “gift of tongues” as recorded in the first letter of St. Paul to the Church at Corinth,
2. Or with the great miracle of Pentecost, as recorded by St. Luke in the book of Acts.

Firstly, not all tongues are necessarily articulate and in the form of a language, as I understand it. I think this has been discussed previously. Angelic tongues, as mentioned in 1 Cor. 13:1 (“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.”), may not follow our idea of a “proper” language. Afterall, they are spiritual beings, without a need to speak. I would not be surprised if these tongues were simply expressions of spiritual longing for God, as is often the case in the Charismatic Renewal.

Secondly, some Charismatics do speak in valid human languages, as explained by a number of people in this thread previously. I have heard a very similar story to what was explained before regarding people who happen to wonder into a Charismatic prayer group and hear words of praise in their native tongue, which the group would have had no way of knowing. We also hear of many Saints who experience something similar. Padre Pio, for example.

Since ancient times, this babbling has been a practice of pagan spirituality, mystery cults, and mediumistic religions, etc. and has historically been considered either as of a pathological nature or as a sign of spirit possession.

Circumcision was a pagan practice, yet it was a valid Jewish custom. Fundamentalists accuse us of being pagan upon seeing the images of Mary with the child Jesus, citing multiple pagan sources (See Catholic Answers tract, “Is Catholicism Pagan?” - catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp). The point being that, there are many similarities between the pagan religions and the Christian religion, simply because (and this is my assumption) the devil wants to be like God. If it has “historically been considered either as of a pathological nature or as a sign of spirit possession”, this would invalidate the original Pentecost. The thing is, nobody can (or rather, should) offer generalizations such as this to reject something which may come from God. In realising this, we can objectively examine the case and be open to it with discernment and prudence.

Catholics must believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ, and throughout the ages unfailingly and indefectibly has taught the truths of faith without error.

Therefore, we should question very seriously the contention that the “Pentecostal experience” is a true movement of the Holy Spirit, since it originated among sects and movements which explicitly denied many divinely revealed dogmas of the Church.

Yes, I believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. I However, I do not believe that God is limited to the visible confines of the Church. The Holy Spirit still directs the Church, and ensures that she will not teach universal errors (ie. to be taught to the whole Church, in matters of faith and morals, when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra). However, this does not limit the Holy Spirit from bestowing his other gifts, which are many: 1 Cor. 12:4 - “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit”.

[continued…]

 

[TTM]

No Catholic should hold that the Holy Spirit derives or activated from sources outside of the Catholic Church. No Catholic should submit himself to rituals, that are not of ecclestical or apostolic in origin.

Again, I would suggest that it is not whether or not the Holy Spirit can act among Protestant Christians, who the Catholic Church recognises as being our brethren, but the Catholic pride, of being the elder brother who never left home in the first place, which refuses to acknowledge the Prodigal, who is clearly welcomed by Our Father who runs to greet him, even outside the House.

If the Holy See has approved it and given it its blessing, I do not see what the problem is.

Would the Holy Spirit be a part to error? Would he really conceal or deny to the one true Church for 2000 years something which, “should have been a normative experience” for all baptized Christians?

The greatest of all the charisms is love. Tongues, healings, prophecy - these are nothing without love. The Holy Spirit has not necessarily denied the Church, but rather, I would suggest, prioritised in order to give us the greatest of all the gifts in the light of eternity and withhold the others, so that we may not place these other charisms up on the pedestal at the expense of love, as some Pentecostals seem to do in our present time. I believe that this Renewal is a timely encouragement and true gifts in time of need. We need the Holy Spirit to work in our lives. Without him, we can do nothing good. It’s with this realisation that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal seeks to encourage the fellow pilgrims to call on the Holy Spirit.

God bless you all,

and please pray for me that I’d live up to my own writings!

God bless,
TTM

 

[tru_dvotion]

Hello TTM,

I saw your posts, but I did not read them. I am still answering your #147-48 posts. I will respond until it is feasible, but if I am bombarded with new post while I am responding to your previous posts, I will not have the time for a dialog. If that is your intent, please say so, because it should have been obvious from my last two posts, that I have not even began answering you. So please bear with me for a few days. My husband had a heart attack 2 weeks ago and my time is very precious.

Quote:

***It is true that the Charismatic movement began outside the confines of the Catholic Church. However, this does not invalidate the whole movement, as the Spirit can act outside the Catholic Church in other Christians as well. If the Holy Spirit could act in the unbaptised gentiles, as told in the book of Acts… end Quote ***

**Yes you are correct about what is in Acts, but wrong in your analogy. First of all, those unabaptized gentiles were not the ones laying their hands on the apostles. NO! It happened the other way around. The apostles did the converting. This kind of reverse (false) explanation runs through the entire baptism in the spirit concept. The household of Cornelious and the others like him mentioned in Acts were already followers of Christ and members of the fold in the Spirit. They were just technically outside of the one fold. The apostles, prompted by the Holy Spirit, brought them INTO the one fold. None of that happened on **Asuza Street. Those wayward Catholics became the converts of a sect and the members of the *separated brethren *did not come into the one fold. There were no pagan conversions on Asuza Street as there were in Acts, NO, the pagans did the converting here.

Quote:

***I don’t see why he would not act in our separated brethren of the same faith. end Quote ***

**

Well I do. That is because our separated brethren is teaching heresies and have lost far too many of the graces that are found in FULLNESS within the One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church. The sect on Asuza Street, in Topeka was one such separated brethren.

**

**

 

[tru_dvotion]

**The Azusa Street Revival, as it is popularly known, that propelled the Pentecostal movement from relative obscurity to worldwide notoriety.It is one of the lesser known but well documented facts that Charles Parham’s greatest pupil was, because of his race, was not allowed by the "spiritual **father" of the Pentecostal movement to enter his classroom, but obliged to listen to Parham’s lectures in the hall.

**William Seymour, a black holiness preacher, received his “Pentecostal experience”, or “Baptism in the Spirit” in Los Angeles, and is credited with beginning the Azusa Street revival. This “revival”, by its very nature, was not likely to avoid becoming controversial, as evinced by an article which **appeared in the Los Angeles Times on April 18, 1906:

**"…Breathing strange utterances, and mouthing a creed which it would seem no mortal could understand, the newest religious sect has started in Los Angeles…devotees of the weird doctrine practice the most fanatical rites, preach the wildest theories, and work themselves into a state of mad **excitement…night is made hideous in the neighborhood by the howlings of the worshippers who spend hours swaying back and forth in a nerve racking attitude of prayer and supplication. They claim to have the “gift of tongues” and be able to comprehend the babel…

**An old black exhorter (presumably Seymour), blind in one eye is the major domo of the company. With his stony optic fixed on some luckless unbeliever, the old man yells his defiance and challenges an answer. Anathemas are heaped upon him who shall dare to gainsay the utterances of the preacher. ****Clasped in his big fist, the black brother holds a miniature Bible from which he reads at intervals one or two words, never more. After an hour spent in exhortation the brethren present are invited to join in a ‘meeting of song, prayer, and testimony.’ Then it is that pandemonium breaks loose, and the bounds of reason are passed by the those who are 'filled with **the spirit’, whatever that may be."

 

[tru_dvotion]

**One who possesses even a passing familiarity with the mystical life and theology of the Catholic Church would be hard put to attempt to extrapolate from these scenes of obviously dionysiac frenzy anything even remotely resembling the Pentecost as described by St. Luke in the Acts of the Apostles. Nowhere in the New Testament or the early Church Fathers do we read of any of the authentic “charismata” or gifts of the Holy Spirit coming about in this manner. Nevertheless, Azusa was the means whereby the Pentecostal movement was able to broadcast its presence to the world, and Azusa’s seminal influence on both the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements **is acknowledged quite openly by their leaders, even by such a renowned theologian as Fr. Rene Laurentin in his book on Catholic neo-pentecostals.

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One wonders whether the hunger for experiencing thrilling emotions and witnessing “signs and wonders” may have overtaken sound dogmatic and theological reasoning-an all too frequent occurrence in Church history.

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**At any rate, one of the “fruits” of the Azusa revival was the emergence of “Oneness” or “Jesus only” Pentecostalism" as presently represented by the Apostolic Faith Churches and the United Pentecostal Churches-both denominations deny the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity, and espouse the ancient heresy of Sabellius or modalism-that there is only one person in the Godhead, and therefore Jesus was God the Father incarnate; they are called “Jesus only Pentecostals” because they baptize only in the name of Jesus, and **do not use the trinitarian formula commanded by Our Lord Himself, thereby denying to their adherents a valid baptism.

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The emergence of the “Oneness” groups provoked a schism in the ranks of the incipient movement: "…The end result was that the Assemblies of God overwhelmingly chose to remain strictly Trinitarian…this left Haywood and Ewart outside the church, along with several leaders of the Assemblies, including one of its cofounders, Howard Goss. They formed several separate church bodies, including the UnitedPentecostalChurch and drew into their camp most of the “Apostolic” church bodies that came more or less directly from the Azusa revival. (Pentecostalism After Azusa: Some Notes Copyright 1997, 1998, Robert Longman Jr.)

 

[tru_dvotion]

Another disastrous consequence (from the standpoint of Holy Mother Church) was the impetus given by the Azusa revival to pentecostal missionary activity in overwhelmingly Catholic Latin America. Pentecostalism was instrumental in robbing more Latin American Catholics (numbering in the millions) of the faith of their fathers than any other Protestant denomination, probably more than all other such churches combined. Another sign of a “New Pentecost” or “Latter Day Outpouring of the Spirit”?

In the meantime, the “spiritual founder” of Pentecostalism, Charles Parham, was arrested in 1907 for sodomizing one of his pupils. This apparently ended his career as a chaneller of “the spirit.” Parham spent the rest of his days as a devoted member of, and a fervent propogandist for, the Ku-Klux-Klan.

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Those convinced neo-pentecostals and radical charismatics who look upon twentieth century pentecostalism (via the ecumenical “Charismatic movement”) as a means whereby the Holy Spirit has restored the “primitive charisms” to the Church should meditate on these words of Jesus Christ, Our Lord:

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"Beware of false prophets who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes off thorns, or figs off thistles?

Even so, every good tree that yieldeth not good fruit, shall be cut down and cast into the fire.

Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father, who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many wonderful works in thy name?

And then I will profess unto them: I never knew you: depart from me you that work iniquity." (Matthew 5:15-23)

 

[Pani_Rose]

The Catholic Church understands that the Charismatic Renewal began over all, including Azusa Stree which “tru_devotion” quoted, as a result of Pope John XXIII’s prayer: "O Holy Spirit…pour forth the fullness of your gifts…renew your wonders in this our day as by a new Pentecost.” Nothing happens outside the Catholic Church, everything that happens in Christendom, comes as a result of the actions of the Catholic Church.

In fact POPE PAUL VI in 1975 personally, invited the renewal to hold its annual conference in Rome. In a special session during that conference the Pope stated: “ Nothing is more necessary to this more and more secularized world than the witness of the spiritual renewal' that we see the Holy Spirit evoking in the most diverse regions and mileux... How then could this spiritual renewal’ not be a `chance’ for the Church and for the world? And how, in this case, could one not take all the means to insure that it remains so.”

Pope John Paul II on the Charismatic Movement

From the very beginning of my ministry as the Successor of Peter, I have considered the movement as a great spiritual resource for the church…Within the Charismatic Renewal, the Catholic Fraternity has a specific mission, recognized by the Holy See. One of the objectives stated in your statutes is to safeguard the Catholic identity of the charismatic communities and to encourage them always to maintain a close link with the Bishops and the Roman Pontiff. To help people to have a strong sense of their membership in the Church is especially important in times such as ours, when confusion and relativism abound.

You belong to an ecclesial movement. The word “ecclesial” here is more than merely decorative. It implies a precise task of Christian formation, and involves a deep convergence of faith and life. The enthusiastic faith, which enlivens your communities, is a great enrichment, but it is not enough. It must be accompanied by a Christian formation, which is solid, comprehensive and faithful to the Church’s Magisterium: a formation based upon a life of prayer, upon listening to the Word of God, and upon worthy reception of the sacraments, especially Reconciliation and the Eucharist. To mature in faith, we have to grow in knowledge of its truths. If this does not happen, there is a danger of superficiality, extreme subjectivism and illusion…

In addition, the Church needs charisms of prayer, like tongues and the other prayer gifts as well as gifts of healing if it expects to experience in a vivid way the saving presence of God in its midst. Without a vivid sense of God’s saving presence, the Church will forget that only the saving grace of God creates and sustains it as a community; and that kind of tragic forgetting will make the Christian community indistinguishable from any other natural or sinful human community. A Church that looks like any other natural or sinful human community cannot, however, mediate Christ and His Spirit effectively to a sinful world…

Pani Rose

 

[tru_dvotion]

No Catholic can accept experiential faith without doctrinal foundation. No Catholic can actively participate with non-Catholics in acts of worship, and finally, no charismatic can deny that every one of the above criteria are demanded of the followers of this new sect.

**We, as Catholics, would do well to recall the words of St Augustine: ‘Only the Church [of all times] is the Body of Christ of which He is the Head and Savior. Outside of this Body the Holy Ghost does not vivify anyone. Those who are outside of the Church [of all times] do not have the Holy Ghost: let he who wishes to have the Holy Ghost be vigilant so that he does not land outside the Church [of all times].’ **

**Faithful adherence to Sacred Scripture makes it an obligation to reject opinions which turn the charism of tongues into little more than infantile babbling. Apostolic tongues were not something that could be taught or learned. They did not start with baby languages. They were to bring light and knowledge to the unbeliever, and not confusion and darkness to the believer. **

There is enough in St. Paul to show us that the Corinthian peculiarities were ignoble accretions and abuses. They made of “tongues” a source of schism in the Church and of scandal. (14:23). Tongues had deteriorated into a mixture of meaningless inarticulate gabble (9, 10) with an element of uncertain sounds (7, 8), which sometimes could be blasphemous (12:3). The general effect was one of confusion and disedification for the very unbelievers for whom the normal gift was intended (14:22, 23, 26).

**Today’s “gift of tongues” at charismatic prayer meetings, charismatic conferences and charismatic masses is a fair reproduction of Corinthian glossolaly, and shows the need to do all things “decently, and according to order” **

 

[tru_dvotion]

At a later time I will deal with a couple of your questions regarding the early heresies and the charismatic abuses of the mass.