Detecting FAKE Tongues in Charismatic

[CatholicGeek]

beng:

I would not say that all tongues in the Corinthians are fake. However, it seems, from newadvent.org, that there are fake tongues there (within the Corrinthians).

I am glad to see your coming around here a bit.

beng:

Unless you have other interpretation as a result from your intensive scripture study. By all mean enlightened us.

I am not a biblical scholar. But then again I have not gleaned out of the scriptures a definitive test for fake tongues.

 

[beng]

CatholicGeek:

I am glad to see your coming around here a bit.

Correct. And I still think 99% of Charismatic tongue are fake

I am not a biblical scholar. But then again I have not gleaned out of the scriptures a definitive test for fake tongues.

1 Cor 14:27-28
27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.

If any tongue does not pass that test, then it’s either fake or disobedient tongue.

Why is Charismatic supporter (you) have fear of applying that test? Afraid of failing the test? That kinda prove the abuse.

 

[CatholicGeek]

beng:

Why is Charismatic supporter (you) have fear of applying that test? Afraid of failing the test? That kinda prove the abuse.

I think I “fear” the test, as you put it, because I do not think it is a valid test. Why didn’t Jesus take the test in Luke 4:9-11? Wasn’t that test too from scripture? I don’t think not taking your test proves anything.

Obviously you are pretty rigid in your position on this, and I have not been able to shed much light on this subject. Perhaps someone else can offer a better agument than I can. I don’t like debate for the purposes of debate, and it looks like I’ve run out of things to say, and to me, it sounds like your just repeating yourself. And if I’ve misinterpreted your words, I’m sure that I’m not alone in that.

I’m serious about praying for the authentic gift on tongues. Don’t discount it. I will pray for you!

 

[beng]

CatholicGeek:

I think I “fear” the test, as you put it, because I do not think it is a valid test.

Read the verse. It’s in the Bible.

Why didn’t Jesus take the test in Luke 4:9-11?

Charismaticis are not good.

2Tim 3:16-17

Wasn’t that test too from scripture?

Give me OT verse. Show me that Caiphas or whoever it was, was quoting scripture.

I don’t think not taking your test proves anything.

It proves that some people are con artist even if they don’t know it.

Obviously you are pretty rigid in your position on this,

It’s a biblical position.

and I have not been able to shed much light on this subject.

Read the Bible. There’s no other way to read it.

Perhaps someone else can offer a better agument than I can.

True, your argument is weak.

I don’t like debate for the purposes of debate, and it looks like I’ve run out of things to say, and to me, it sounds like your just repeating yourself.

Of course I’m repeating myself. Because you failed over and over to see the obvious.

And if I’ve misinterpreted your words, I’m sure that I’m not alone in that.

I don’t even know what that means

I’m serious about praying for the authentic gift on tongues. Don’t discount it. I will pray for you!

Really, if you want to pray for gifts to me do as what Paul did. He would like that people prophesize.

Tho I would settle with:

Wisdom

Understanding

Counsel

Fortitude

Knowledge

Piety

Fear of the Lord.

Those are the true sevn gifts of the Holy Spirit. There’s even a novena for it (I would doubt any Charismatic would know this, they are busy with their fake tongue).

 

[beng]

That should be Charismaticists are not God

 

[SocaliCatholic]

Beng,

I usually dont have the time to post on every thread I read, but it might interest you I am one of those “lukers” and I have carefully read and analyzed what everyone on this thread has posted and quoted scripture thus far.

1. My opinion on tounges DID change becuase of this thread. (I will now apply the Bible’s test if I ever run into someone using tounges)
2. I am grateful God used your fidelity to the Bible to enlighten me to challenge those who make non biblical claims, non Catholic claims, or claim to possess tounge gifts
3. People may think you are harsh, they are right…authentic fidelity to Biblcial Truth is definitely harsh against non-truth. Truth agrees with Truth, a lie will agree with one who accepts lies, but the Truth can never agree with lies.

Just as I was reluctant to read the Bible at first and admit its Truth, a protestant friend of mine once told me:

The Bible is like a Sword of Truth…

Always be prepared for reactions of those who don’t want to believe what it says!

Love in Christ

 

[John_Of_Cinci]

beng

Please do not take this the wrong way.
I detect a thread of anger, resentment and pride in your posts. You seem to always have a comeback but they never glean any new light on the issue.
I pray the Holy Spirit will come down upon you and set your heart on fire you seem to have a lot to offer.

 

[beng]

John Of Cinci:

beng

Please do not take this the wrong way.
I detect a thread of anger, resentment and pride in your posts.

I’m excited about getting rid off abuse that’s all.

You seem to always have a comeback but they never glean any new light on the issue.

Because some people repeat the same thing that I’ve already explained.

I pray the Holy Spirit will come down upon you and set your heart on fire you seem to have a lot to offer.

Thank you.

And do test your charismaticist with the test provided by the Bible.

 

[TTM]

I agree with John of Cinci. I’m afraid I can not see the fruits of the Spirit at work here, of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. We’re all falliable human beings here, let’s do our best to treat others as better than ourselves.

By the way, thanks jp2fan for your definition of a “Protestant-hater”. I recognize many of those in myself, actually (although I don’t hate the Protestants at all, I just love doing apologetics). I’m no Saint, yet!

Now, as for the Charismatic Renewal, I am pretty much in favour of it since what I’ve experienced so far has been very positive. I do believe that it is from God, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to work without us getting in the way (or worse, distorting it). Being a recent convert myself (virtual agnostic since 1981 - Catholic since Easter 2003), I find the supernatural love and joy I experience within the charismatic community I live with (folks from the Institute for World Evangelization, I.C.P.E. See icpe.org/ ) very attractive, and it makes me proud to be a Catholic and a Christian. I do think that it needs to be done in communion with the Church, and there should definitely not be any liturgical abuses at all. Personally, I like the Mass to be very much reverent, which is somewhat different from praise and worship sessions.

As for the “baptism in the Holy Spirit”, I think the name comes from what happened at the Pentecost (John the Baptist did say that Jesus would baptise them with the fire (the Spirit), didn’t he?). I think the best explanation I’ve heard is that it’s like coffee (yes, coffee): at Baptism and at Confirmation, the Holy Spirit is poured out and is fully present in you (like coffee powder at the bottom o the cup), the spirit has to be stirred in you (like coffee. Possibly by a greater acceptance by your part in being open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit), and so the so-called “baptism in the Spirit” (which is not the same as being baptised again! In fact, some prefer to call it the “fuller release of the Holy Spirit”) allows this to happen. I think confirmation is basically supposed to do this, but most often we don’t know enough about the gifts (such as healing, prophecy, tongues, etc.) to have any desires for them or to ask for them, so we don’t get them. Another important factor of the Renewal is having a relationship with Jesus, and really knowing him more than knowing about him. I think we Catholics can sometimes be guilty of being rather ritualistic about things (rituals should help, not mask our devotion or the lack of it), and neglecting that heart-felt relationship with our God who is really a relational being. The Charismatic Renewal, I think, can be a really great help in this area – and this is why I would say that the Renewal (when it’s done properly) is for all the baptised (yes, that means you, you and you! )

 

[TTM]

Afterall, we are not capable of evangelising this secularised world by ourselves, so we must be open to the Holy Spirit to work in our lives. I think it also helps to note too that the Apostles worked healing and miracles as tools for evangelization. I think we’re more in need of these now than ever before, in a world where people have hearts of stone and ridicule our faith as superstitious nonsense. As for speaking in tongues, these are supposed to help our relationship with God, since it is the Holy Spirit which speaks through us to express things which are beyond words (those who speak in tongues often say that it happens when the words of praise/prayer no longer suffice). It can either be in Earthly (“foreign”) languages (which can sometimes be understood by their native speakers), or in the languages of the angels. Both of these could be interpreted through the gift of interpretation of tongues. As epiphania has stated, this form of personal communication, I think, differs from the ones requiring interpretation.

Scott Hahn in his “Scripture Matters” (I don’t have it at the moment, but it came with the Envoy magazine) I think explained that that revival of the gift of tongues are a warning from God (it also happened in the Old Testament before some disaster struck, and also in the New, before the Romans invaded).
That gives us something to think about, doesn’t it!?

Also, I think we ought to be humbled by the fact that this New Pentecost (that’s what the Charismatic Renewal is) began outside the Catholic Church. I think our Protestant brothers are like the prodigal son – God runs to meet them outside the house (Catholic Church). Sometimes we can be guilty of being the elder brother, and be overly proud of never having left, while never asking for those gifts that God is so eager to give us.

 

[TTM]

Fr. Cantalamessa, the Papal preacher, has some very positive things to say about the Charismatic Renewal. Note that he also reckons it’s for everyone:
(Excerpt from zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=41636)

“I want to say to the faithful, to bishops, to priests, not to be afraid. I don’t know why there is fear. Perhaps, in some measure, because this experience began in other Christian confessions, such as Pentecostals and Protestants.

However, the Pope is not afraid. He has spoken of the ecclesial movements, and also of Charismatic Renewal, as signs of a new springtime of the Church, and he often stresses the importance of this. And Paul VI said it was an opportunity for the Church.

There is no need for fear. There are episcopal conferences, for example in Latin America – this is true of Brazil – where the hierarchy has discovered that Charismatic Renewal is not a problem. It is part of the solution to the problem of Catholics who have left the Church because they don’t find in it a living word, a lived Bible, the possibility of expressing the faith in a joyful manner, in a free way, and Charismatic Renewal is a formidable means that the Lord has given the Church so that one can live an experience of the Spirit, Pentecostal, in the Catholic Church, without the need to leave the Church.

Nor should Charismatic Renewal be regarded as an “island” where some emotional people get together. It is not an island. It is a grace meant for all the baptized. The external signs can be different, but in its essence, it is an experience meant for all the baptized.”

 

[TTM]

Now, it helps to realize that the Charismatic Renewal is indeed endorsed at the highest level in the Church (namely by the Pope). The United States Catholic Conference of Bishops on the Charismatic Renewal had this to say in what they termed “Grace For The New Springtime” ( ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/nonattributed/US_Bishops_001.html_ ):

…As experienced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal baptism in the Holy Spirit makes Jesus Christ known and loved as Lord and Savior, establishes or reestablishes an immediacy of relationship with all those persons of the Trinity, and through inner transformation affects the whole of the Christian’s life. There is new life and a new conscious awareness of God’s power and presence. It is a grace experience which touches every dimension of the Church’s life: worship, preaching, teaching, ministry, evangelism, prayer and spirituality, service and community. Because of this, it is our conviction that baptism in the Holy Spirit, understood as the reawakening in Christian experience of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit given in Christian initiation, and manifested in a broad range of charisms, including those closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is part of the normal Christian life.

Pastoral Encouragement

We encourage the whole Church to look into and embrace baptism in the Holy Spirit “as the power of personal and communal transformation with all the graces and charisms needed for the upbuilding of the Church and for our mission in the world.” (Fanning the Flame, p. 27)

We want also to encourage those in the Renewal to continue to bring an awareness of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit to the Church; to foster balanced devotion to Mary; to teach and grow in the discernment of spiritual experiences and to continue in faithful cooperation with the mission and the vision of the local Church in which they serve. By its shared life, the Renewal can be an example and fostering agent of small Christian communities in the Church. Through the Cross and the “embrace of the paschal mystery” (Called and Gifted for the Third Millennium, p. 24), the Renewal can deepen “life in the Spirit.” We encourage leaders in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal to work to bring the various streams of this Renewal into cooperate unity.

So, as you can see, the Charismatic Renewal is something that nobody in the Church can overlook. Not only does it enable us to open up to the incredible powers of the Holy Spirit, it enriches every aspect of our Catholic spirituality, through our increased intimacy with the God we worship and adore.

 

[Makerteacher]

The Charismatic Renewal is a movement within the Church that has several parts to it. I am not terribly familiar with the other parts, though I know they hold conferences across America.

One part I am familiar with is the Fraternity of Catholic Charismatic Covenant Communities, an approved lay apostolate of the Faithful in full accord and obedience to the Magisterium, operating with the approval of the Holy See. Go here to see more: www.catholicfraternity.net. This group is worldwide and is made up of 70 or so covenant communities like the Emmaneul community in France already mentioned, and my own community in Dallas, The Christian Community of God’s Delight.(www.lumen2000.org)

Yes there are occasional abuses with the movement, as there also are in every movement involving humans. That does not discount the validity of the movement. As a “lay apostolate”, it is by definition not for everyone, and we do not seek to make everyone join or us or worship in our style. It’s OK not to like the Charismatic style of worship, but IMHO it’s not OK to attack it, and those who belong to it, when the Pope has said it is a valid movement.

My own experience with Covenant Charismatic Communities has been life changing and overwhelmingly positive. These people are living out their faith is RADICAL ways, changing the neighborhoods and parishes they live in from dangerous and dead to vital and life giving.

As for tongues, in our weekly prayer meetings which we attend after having gone to Mass in our respective parishes, there is often private praise in tongues, which needs no interpretation, and only occasionally prophecy in tongues, which is done loudly before the whole community and followed with an interpretation.

I will say the biggest problem we have with the second kind of tongues is people jumping in with an interpretation that is plain wrong. Usually in that case the “fault” (if you will) is simply that they are young in their faith and the silence after the prophecy gets to them, so they speak out a word (God is calling us to deeper love, etc etc, nothing specific but more like niceities of the Faith). Often in this case we will have more silence and then a second, more valid interpretation is revealed. (Usually a specific word like You are to being ministry X) That said, tongues is one of the lesser gifts, and not a central focus of our meetings.

I am baffled as to how “laying on of hands” is offensive to some of the posters here. Can you clarify for me?

 

[beng]

TTM

Simple question.

Do you do tongues infront of believers without interpretation?

Because if you do, you violate the Bible. It doesn’t matter how many people favouring Charismatics tongue.

 

[beng]

TTM:

As for the “baptism in the Holy Spirit”, I think the name comes from what happened at the Pentecost (John the Baptist did say that Jesus would baptise them with the fire (the Spirit), didn’t he?). I think the best explanation I’ve heard is that it’s like coffee (yes, coffee): at Baptism and at Confirmation, the Holy Spirit is poured out and is fully present in you (like coffee powder at the bottom o the cup), the spirit has to be stirred in you (like coffee. Possibly by a greater acceptance by your part in being open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit), and so the so-called “baptism in the Spirit” (which is not the same as being baptised again! In fact, some prefer to call it the “fuller release of the Holy Spirit”) allows this to happen. I think confirmation is basically supposed to do this, but most often we don’t know enough about the gifts (such as healing, prophecy, tongues, etc.) to have any desires for them or to ask for them, so we don’t get them. Another important factor of the Renewal is having a relationship with Jesus, and really knowing him more than knowing about him. I think we Catholics can sometimes be guilty of being rather ritualistic about things (rituals should help, not mask our devotion or the lack of it), and neglecting that heart-felt relationship with our God who is really a relational being. The Charismatic Renewal, I think, can be a really great help in this area – and this is why I would say that the Renewal (when it’s done properly) is for all the baptised (yes, that means you, you and you! )

You are sounding like a Protestant by equaling the sacred Mass as Ritual.

“fuller release of Holy Spirit”? OMG, You are venturing very dangerous path.

“Having relationship with Jesus”? The infamous Protestant sugar coateed term? All Catholics already have relationship with Jesus. We EAT Him!!

Anyone who seperate Baptism by Water and Baptism by Spirit has held for himself a heretical belief.

btw,

John Baptism =/= Christian Baptism (the one we have now)

Only after Pentacosta that the Church actually started. So one can not and should not make an argument that because in Pentacost the Holy Spirit come than it is a differnt kind of baptism. ALL Christian Baptism nowadays has the same grace as what happens at Pentacost.

 

[mark_a]

I’m a Catholic and have no problem w/ non-Catholics praying in tongues. I think I’d better just concentrate on my own worship. Is this wrong?

 

[Makerteacher]

mark a:

I’m a Catholic and have no problem w/ non-Catholics praying in tongues. I think I’d better just concentrate on my own worship. Is this wrong?

I see nothing wrong with that. I am curious whether you have a problem with Catholics who pray in tongues?

Also, I repeat this question because no one has answered it yet: am baffled as to how "laying on of hands" , literally just placing our hands on one another’s shoulders when we pray for each other, is offensive to some of the posters here. Can you clarify for me?

Let us be charitable in our discussions here, and always remember that just because a certain lay apostolate (such as the Charismatic Renewal) does not appeal to you personally, that does not invalidate the apostolate for others. What the Pope has approved, I would be VERY cautious in condemning. Also remember that ALL human endeavors have their flaws and their abuses. There isn’t a single lay apostolate out there that has not had some sort of problems. Only with the help of Jesus Christ the Risen Lord can we hope to make a difference in the world.

 

[beng]

Makerteacher:

I see nothing wrong with that. I am curious whether you have a problem with Catholics who pray in tongues?

Also, I repeat this question because no one has answered it yet: am baffled as to how "laying on of hands" , literally just placing our hands on one another’s shoulders when we pray for each other, is offensive to some of the posters here. Can you clarify for me?

You really don’t know?

Laying of the hand is a very symbolic acts of delegating Authority. Something that we apologist always try to ‘teach’ and defend to the Protestant. Not only that but also we see in the NT presbyters (priest) laying hands to the sick. This is becuase only those with Holy Order could lay hands to the sick and confer the sacrament grace.

And here we are we have the Charismatic watering down the meaning of “laying of hands”

It’s not something that LAY PEOPLE should do.

Let us be charitable in our discussions here, and always remember that just because a certain lay apostolate (such as the Charismatic Renewal) does not appeal to you personally, that does not invalidate the apostolate for others. What the Pope has approved, I would be VERY cautious in condemning. Also remember that ALL human endeavors have their flaws and their abuses. There isn’t a single lay apostolate out there that has not had some sort of problems. Only with the help of Jesus Christ the Risen Lord can we hope to make a difference in the world.

First of all, the error of Charismatic is fundamental and biblical. It’s not because they are “different” it’s because they are "erroneous.

Second of all, endorsement from Pope has no authoritative power that we should fobey, let alone infallibility. However the Bible is clear as you could get on the major error of Charismaticism (that is the Tongue spoken to believers without interpretation and laying of hands).

 

[Makerteacher]

beng:

You really don’t know?
Laying of the hand is a very symbolic acts of delegating Authority. Something that we apologist always try to ‘teach’ and defend to the Protestant. Not only that but also we see in the NT presbyters (priest) laying hands to the sick. This is becuase only those with Holy Order could lay hands to the sick and confer the sacrament grace.

And here we are we have the Charismatic watering down the meaning of “laying of hands”

It’s not something that LAY PEOPLE should do.

Beng, Let me be quite certain I understand you here: are you saying that if I touch my sick child while praying over him, I am violating the true teachings of the Church? If so, guilty as charged.

We pray for one another. When we do so, sometimes we place our hands on each other, NOT in some position of ecclesial authority, but because we love one another and are praying for one another. This cannot be confused with the "laying on of hands’ which the ecclesial authorities do at confirmation or ordination, and I assure you no one in the CCR thinks they are the same AT ALL. This is not an investiture of any sort. We are simply praying for each other, as scripture exhorts us to do.

2 Timothy 1: 6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.

James 5: 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

beng:

First of all, the error of Charismatic is fundamental and biblical. It’s not because they are “different” it’s because they are "erroneous.Second of all, endorsement from Pope has no authoritative power that we should fobey, let alone infallibility. However the Bible is clear as you could get on the major error of Charismaticism (that is the Tongue spoken to believers without interpretation and laying of hands)./

Just curious, are you a sola scriptura proponent? If so, then I understand where you are coming from, though I disagree with sola scriptura completely. How does the Bible state clearly that charismatic gifts are “errors”? Please be specific.

If you are not in favor of personal interpretation and sola scriptura, then you must recognize the authority of the Pope, who supports this movement and has given it his approval. I admit that I am very saddened and concerned by your statement that “endorsement from the Pope has no authoritative power.” What do you mean?

Are you a Catholic?

 

[sola_verbum_dei]

by their fruits shall you know them - Matthew 7:16

See Galatians 5:22-23. → if these are not evident in the life of the person, then he is not true to God and to Himself.