Determining Severity of Sin

[Bookcat]

But “mortal sin” by itself, as the CCC makes clear, refers to actual, personal fully culpable sins of grave matter (ie formal mortal sin)

That is why Canon 915 CANNOT properly refer to “mortal sin” because it is not formal mortal sin that bars a person from Communion in 915.

NO it does not. “Mortal sin” by itself - CAN refer to actual serious sins of grave matter (formal mortal sin to use that phrase).

It (mortal sin by itself) can ALSO be used to refer to the sin “in itself”.

(material mortal sin -while a valid phrase- is a phrase the the Church seems to have actually been getting away from using as was pointed out by one of my Professors at University-- when I used it).

The Church again uses the terms mortal sin, grave sin and serious sin to mean the very same sin.

Be that on the objective level - adultery is a mortal sin, adultery is a grave sin, adultery is a serious sin. All three referring to the same sin.

Or on the level of the subject- a mortal sin must be confessed, a grave sin must be confessed, a serious sin must be confessed. All three referring to the same sin of adultery that has been committed with the needed three components.

Can 915 is referring to manifest grave sin in the objective sense.

Other places the Church uses grave sin to refer to the second sense (subjective serious guilt).

The fact that Can 915 uses that term there does NOT reduce the use of that term.

Does not remove the reality that the term gets used for a committed sin one is seriously culpable for.

Nor does the fact that the term mortal sin gets used in a place referring to a committed sin one is seriously culpable for mean that the Church does not also use it to mention a sin on the objective level “in itself” irrespective of culpability.

One must look at the context of use in each circumstance to know if the Church is using the term in the objective sense of the sin “in itself” irrespective of the culpability of a person - or in terms of the subjective sense -the grave culpability of the person who commits it.

The terms though all three get used -in both ways.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14353555&postcount=66

 

[Blue_Horizon]

“Mortal sin” by itself - CAN refer to actual serious sins of grave matter (formal mortal sin to use that phrase).

915 is not referring merely to “actual sins of grave matter”.
For an actual sin of grave matter must mean a personally committed mortal sin which damns. But this is not the sort of sin severity that 915 is primarily identifying.

But rather, as you finally accept, 915 is about visible objectively serious offences.
Therefore it also includes actual offences that may well be venial too (though of objective (grave) matter). There is no way these can be called actual mortal sins.

Therefore the “severity” referred to in 915 has nothing primarily to do with a venial/mortal malice distinction. It is an objective offence distinction which is being identified and therefore must be based on either the customary objective matter (some grave matters versus light matters) or objective personal “disposition”.

The ambiguous expression “grave sins” (suggesting "grave matter amongst others things) is closer to this type of “severity” meaning than is “mortal sin”.

 

[Bookcat]

915 is not referring merely to “actual sins of grave matter”.
.

Yes I agreed.

 

[Bookcat]

The ambiguous expression “grave sins”

No it is not ambigious.

We know what is meant. It all depends on the *context. *

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14359156&postcount=78

Again see the many many quotes form Church Documents showing all three terms getting used. It tis the context that gives ones the understanding of if it refers to the objective sense or the subjective. In any case the three terms are synonyms. They all get used by the Church referring to the same kind of sin or the same kind of sin committed.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14353555&postcount=66

See also the Catholic Dictionary by the famed John Hardon SJ - “mortal sin”. There he explains too that they are synonyms that show different implications (like the sin kills the life of grace so is deadly or that sin is not slight so is grave…etc).

The terms mortal sin, serious sin, grave sin - are synonyms.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

No it is not ambigious.

We know what is meant. It all depends on the *context. *

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14359156&postcount=78

Again see the many many quotes form Church Documents showing all three terms getting used. …

Bookcat you are reverting to your somewhat dysfunctional, non critical and non thinking habit of text-bombing CAF threads with your generalised, unapplied mantra’s…instead of focusing on specific points raised.

In this case I have raised a tight argument clearly demonstrating your mantra generalizations do not hold for Canon 915 and for you to continue in the pretence that it does leads you into logical absurdities which you have clearly declined to respond to .

As per the other post you were mistaken on I am no longer continuing discussion I am afraid for the usual Mt 7:6 reasons. Those capable of reason will quickly see the deep weaknesses in your sterile and somewhat irrelevant quotes.

No doubt you will still continue your these theologically empty text bombing irrelevancies without me as is usually the case with you .

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcat you are reverting to your somewhat dysfunctional, non critical and non thinking habit of text-bombing CAF threads with your generalised, unapplied mantra’s…instead of focusing on specific points raised…

Your skipping over the evidence. I am simply drawing your attention again to it and for readers.

Why are you skipping over it?

It makes everything rather clear.

That is the use of the Catholic Church.

 

[Bookcat]

In this case I have raised a tight argument clearly demonstrating your mantra generalizations do not hold for Canon 915 and for you to continue in the pretence that it does leads you into logical absurdities which you have clearly declined to respond to .
.

You have yes given one example of the use of “grave sin” in one context.

Yes I agree to that meaning in that context.

Again the Church uses “grave sin” in other contexts too.

To refer to that which a person is culpable in a serious way for.

But you keep skipping over all those examples and are not happy with me when I point them out again.

They examples from the Magisterium -I know it is a long post but please do not skip it for it gives the needed information (that is why I think it is important to note it again so it is not missed due to its length…I know myself I do not like to read long posts either (and can skip them) but the length here is necessary.).

I have answered that I agree with you -yes that phrase in that context refers to what you noted.

In other contexts that same phrase refers in the Church to that which a person is seriously culpable for.

See also the Catholic Dictionary by the famed John Hardon SJ - “mortal sin”. There he explains too that they are synonyms that show different implications (like the sin kills the life of grace so is deadly or that sin is not slight so is grave…etc). So see the definition there - he expressly states this.

The terms mortal sin, serious sin, grave sin - are* synonyms.*

and

Our Moral Life in Christ (moral theology)

“…mortal and “grave” sins are identical”. P146 -* Midwest Theological Forum*