Detroit Catholic Leaders Urge Gay Marriage Supporters to Skip Communion

  • Thread starter Thread starter mdgspencer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
bellasbane said:
Has anyone stopped to consider that the problem is not with the 400+ Bishops of the United States who embrace a pastoral approach in order to win hearts and minds, but maybe with the 30 who would use canon law to strong-arm compliance?

I know its hard for many on this forum to accept, but most good, faithful Roman Catholics reject the canonical approach, because they see it as at odds with the way of the Gospel. The law is there to guide our leaders, but they are not bound by it. Each Bishop has the authority to interpret how the law will be applied on a case-by-case basis and no Bishop (let alone the laity) has the authority to overrule that judgement.

The one clear break with the past heralded by Vatican II was the end of the canonical approach and the embrace of the pastoral approach, which does not seek to enforce behavior through punishment, but to convince hearts and minds. This is the plan for the Church going forward that came out of the council. Catholics who embrace and support this paradigm are good and faithful members of the Church.

As Cardinal Bergoglio, our Pope Francis wrote:

“If God, in his creation, ran the risk of making us free, who am I to butt in?”

“We condemn the spiritual harassment that happens when a minister imposes directives, behaviors, requirements in such a way that deprive the other of freedom,”

ncronline.org/news/art-media/book-co-written-argentine-rabbi-sheds-light-francis-views

In responding to the issue of withholding communion in particular, Cardinal Wuerl not only makes an eloquent case for why this type of harassment is inappropriate, but explains how the polarization our culture has flowed into the Church - leading many to sin against the truth.

Wuerl: Why I Won’t Deny Pelosi Communion

As family fights go, I ask him, is this one more intense now than at any time in the last oh, 45 years?

He thinks it is: "There’s always been a certain amount of that, but the polarization in our culture seems to flow into our Church. It’s the society in which we live – it’s so easy to be anonymous. We have websites, YouTube and You Face’’ – Facebook, I think he means – "so people can unburden themselves.’’

…

He’s beyond sorry to see Communion wielded as a weapon: "That’s the new way now to make your point. We never – the Church just didn’t use Communion this way. It wasn’t a part of the way we do things, and it wasn’t a way we convinced Catholic politicians to appropriate the faith and live it and apply it; the challenge has always been to convince people.’’ Whereas sanctioning them, in his view, has the opposite effect.

For bishops, "there are two different approaches’’ to bring Catholic politicians in line with Church teaching. "One is the pastoral, teaching mode, and the other is the canonical approach’’ – the legal approach, in other words. He doesn’t think it’s a very close call: "I have yet to see where the canonical approach has changed anyone’s heart.’’

…

Then the famously mild Wuerl goes all fire and brimstone on me – in his smiling, bookish way: "In his circles of Hell, Dante places the people with sins of passion at the very brim – barely burned. But at the core are those who sinned against the truth.’’

And circling back to where we began, he says he sees a lot of sinning against the truth in our squabbling over who is and is not fit to call himself a Catholic. Yet in the very long run, he remains optimistic, both as a Catholic and as an American: "One of the best parts of our nation is if we’re left to struggle with an issue long enough, we’ll get it right. The truth wins; you just have to wait a long time, and that’s why the Catholic Church feels so comfortable preaching and teaching, preaching and teaching, preaching and teaching…We’re in it for the long haul.’’

politicsdaily.com/2009/05/06/archbishop-wuerl-why-i-won-t-deny-pelosi-communion/

I am just a middle of the road Catholic who would like to see all the faithful come together and focus on unity where we find common ground, instead focusing on our differences and subjecting the Body of Christ to an unholy tug-of-war that will certainly rip it apart.
Click to expand...
We have been “pastoral” for the last 40 years. This action is pastoral as well. Repent of your sins and you’re more than welcome to receive communion.
 
maryjk said:
I have had Catholics who attend Mass regularly tell me that they support Homosexual “marriage” and women priests.

Drives me crazy.
Click to expand...
About as bad a seeing all those Obama/Biden bumper stickers in Church Parking lot!
 
Archbishop Vigneron has taken the appropriate pastoral step. There will be no questions asked when people go to Communion. He is reminding them that they need to believe what the Church teaches before they present themselves for Communion. Of course, this may not stop some, but hopefully, with God’s help, will cause many to reconsider what it means to be faithful to Church teaching.

The Archbishop is just asking the flock to be honest as Pope Benedict tells us here:

lifesitenews.com/news/pope-suggests-its-best-to-be-honest-and-leave-the-church-if-you-dont-believ/

Peace,
Ed
 
fix said:
For decades we have had what some mistakenly call the “pastoral” approach. The result is what we have today. Scandal and division. The solution is not more faux pastoralness.

Being pastoral in no way means denying the truth. Withholding communion is not a punishment. It is medicinal and it protects the Eucharist and other Catholics.

What is really divisive and mean is to pretend anything goes under the guise of tolerance.
Click to expand...
A multitude of sins have been dismissed under the guise of you cant preach the Truth until you win peoples “hearts and minds”
 
fix said:
For decades we have had what some mistakenly call the “pastoral” approach. The result is what we have today. Scandal and division. The solution is not more faux pastoralness.
Click to expand...
The scandals are not related to the pastoral approach, but to secrecy and cover-up. If anything, the greatest scandal, the clergy sex abuse crisis, was the result of certain Bishops selectively applying Canon law while failing to honor civil laws against the sexual abuse of children so as to not compromise their moral authority. This has obviously backfired and the result is that the moral authority of the Bishops in the United States and Europe has been shattered and needs to be restored.

There is nothing “faux” about the pastoral approach adopted by the Church at the Second Vatican Council. The rise of liberal democracies across the globe makes the modern world much more like the pagan Roman world encountered by Saint Paul and the early Church fathers than the medieval world of Christian kingdoms and the Papal States. Therefore, medieval methods will not work anymore. In order to be successful in winning souls to Christ, we must return to the pastoral approach that worked so well for Saint Paul and the early Church fathers who won converts within the context of pagan societies.
fix said:
Being pastoral in no way means denying the truth. Withholding communion is not a punishment. It is medicinal and it protects the Eucharist and other Catholics.

What is really divisive and mean is to pretend anything goes under the guise of tolerance.
Click to expand...
The real presence does not need protection from sin or death, but conquers both. Isn’t that the message of Easter? Isn’t that the central tenet of our faith? Christ did not seek protection from those who heaped insult upon his body at the Crucifixion, nor did he withhold himself after the resurrection from the disciples who abandoned him to his fate. This is not old history, it is the eternal reality.

Take care not to confuse tolerance with moral relativism. This is tolerance:

“Because I am a believer, I know these riches are a gift from God,” Bergoglio says. “I also know that the other person, the atheist, does not know that. I do not embark on the relationship to proselytize to an atheist, I respect him and I show him how I am.”
ncronline.org/news/art-media/book-co-written-argentine-rabbi-sheds-light-francis-views

If you believe Pastoral is a euphemism for moral relativism, you should go back and read the interview with Cardinal Wuerl, because that is not what it is all about. politicsdaily.com/2009/05/06/archbishop-wuerl-why-i-won-t-deny-pelosi-communion/

I can understand that some people feel the need for greater juridical control for personal reasons. Nobody is saying you are forbidden to apply a strict interpretation of canon law to your own life if that is what you need in order to be a better Catholic. However, what works for some does not necessarily work for the Church as a whole and the Bishops are not wrong in choosing not to apply it to everyone.
 
bellasbane said:
The scandals are not related to the pastoral approach, but to secrecy and cover-up. If anything, the greatest scandal, the clergy sex abuse crisis, was the result of certain Bishops selectively applying Canon law while failing to honor civil laws against the sexual abuse of children so as to not compromise their moral authority. This has obviously backfired and the result is that the moral authority of the Bishops in the United States and Europe has been shattered and needs to be restored.
Click to expand...
Ah, the infamous Tu Quoque.
 
_Abyssinia said:
CNN insinuates that Archbp. Vigneron “dialed back” his words about promoters of same-sex marriage and Holy Communion
Click to expand...
Father Z has a lot of gall to write things like, “I don’t know what Pope Francis is up to, liturgically speaking. I am watching and waiting.” as if he is some kind of liturgical inquisitor.

The fact that he is all but rooting for liberals to turn on Pope Francis is really troubling. Its like he’s praying for division and disunity so he can come out smelling like a rose - or rose water.

He should pay better attention to the meaning in the translations he writes and get over the fact that Pope Francis is unlikely to ever wear the mozzetta.
 
bellasbane said:
The scandals are not related to the pastoral approach, but to secrecy and cover-up. If anything, the greatest scandal, the clergy sex abuse crisis, was the result of certain Bishops selectively applying Canon law while failing to honor civil laws against the sexual abuse of children so as to not compromise their moral authority. This has obviously backfired and the result is that the moral authority of the Bishops in the United States and Europe has been shattered and needs to be restored.
Click to expand...
I was not talking about the abuse of teen males. I was talking about all the Catholics who claim to be faithful while publicly rejecting the authority of His Church.
There is nothing “faux” about the pastoral approach adopted by the Church at the Second Vatican Council. The rise of liberal democracies across the globe makes the modern world much more like the pagan Roman world encountered by Saint Paul and the early Church fathers than the medieval world of Christian kingdoms and the Papal States. Therefore, medieval methods will not work anymore. In order to be successful in winning souls to Christ, we must return to the pastoral approach that worked so well for Saint Paul and the early Church fathers who won converts within the context of pagan societies.
Click to expand...
I was not talking about VII. I was talking about the way some within the Church have refused to Shepherd.
The real presence does not need protection from sin or death, but conquers both. Isn’t that the message of Easter? Isn’t that the central tenet of our faith? Christ did not seek protection from those who heaped insult upon his body at the Crucifixion, nor did he withhold himself after the resurrection from the disciples who abandoned him to his fate. This is not old history, it is the eternal reality.
Click to expand...
The Eucharist deserves protection as the Church teaches and Catholics deserve protection from scandal as the Church teaches.
Take care not to confuse tolerance with moral relativism. This is tolerance:
Click to expand...
“Because I am a believer, I know these riches are a gift from God,” Bergoglio says. “I also know that the other person, the atheist, does not know that. I do not embark on the relationship to proselytize to an atheist, I respect him and I show him how I am.”
ncronline.org/news/art-media/book-co-written-argentine-rabbi-sheds-light-francis-views
Click to expand...
If you believe Pastoral is a euphemism for moral relativism, you should go back and read the interview with Cardinal Wuerl, because that is not what it is all about. politicsdaily.com/2009/05/06/archbishop-wuerl-why-i-won-t-deny-pelosi-communion/
Click to expand...
I can understand that some people feel the need for greater juridical control for personal reasons. Nobody is saying you are forbidden to apply a strict interpretation of canon law to your own life if that is what you need in order to be a better Catholic. However, what works for some does not necessarily work for the Church as a whole and the Bishops are not wrong in choosing not to apply it to everyone.
Click to expand...
In the Aparecida Document, a document that represents a joint statement by Latin American church leaders but presented by Francis in 2007, the leaders stated, “we should commit ourselves to ‘eucharistic coherence,’ that is, we should be conscious that people cannot receive holy communion and at the same time act or speak against the commandments, in particular when abortions, euthanasia, and other serious crimes against life and family are facilitated. This responsibility applies particularly to legislators, governors, and health professionals.”
Click to expand...
 
mdgspencer said:
This article reports that Detroit’s Archbishop Vigneron has said that for a Catholic to receive communion and still deny the revelation Christ entrusted to the Church by supporting gay marriage is to do two contradictory things at once. This sort of behavior should “bring shame for a double-dealing that is not unlike perjury.” He says the Church wants Catholics to “avoid this personal disaster.” This major Detroit daily newspaper surprisingly provides this Catholic perspective very frankly, and in fact identifies U.S. political leaders who have had problems in this regards. About 30 other bishops, this article also reports, have said that pro-choice or pro-gay-marriage Catholics should not go to communion.
This article is at www.freep.com/article/20130408/NEWS05/304080041/Detroit-area-catholic-leaders-urge-gay-marriage-supporters-toskip-communion
Click to expand...
Good idea. Wish more bishops would do the same.
 
fix said:
I was not talking about the abuse of teen males. I was talking about all the Catholics who claim to be faithful while publicly rejecting the authority of His Church.

I was not talking about VII. I was talking about the way some within the Church have refused to Shepherd.

The Eucharist deserves protection as the Church teaches and Catholics deserve protection from scandal as the Church teaches.
Click to expand...
Would you agree, as I do, with this post:
Brendan said:
What the Archbishop is saying is that the people should not present themselves for Holy Communion. Which is distinct from a denial of Holy Communion.

So this is more of a call that support for same sex ‘marriage’ would bring the condemnation mentioned in 1 Cor 11: 25-29 and therefore should be part of the personal discernment St. Paul mentioned in ver 31
Click to expand...
There is a difference between denying a person Holy Communion, which is what is sounds like some people are calling on the Bishops to do, and teaching people about what it means to present themselves for Holy Communion - which is a pastoral approach.
 
bellasbane said:
Would you agree, as I do, with this post:

There is a difference between denying a person Holy Communion, which is what is sounds like some people are calling on the Bishops to do, and teaching people about what it means to present themselves for Holy Communion - which is a pastoral approach.
Click to expand...
Agreed-Communion is not used as a “weapon” to attack people who are rejecting Church teaching. They are counseled not to receive. That is the Pastoral approach. They then receive communion at their own spiritual risk.
 
bellasbane said:
Would you agree, as I do, with this post:

There is a difference between denying a person Holy Communion, which is what is sounds like some people are calling on the Bishops to do, and teaching people about what it means to present themselves for Holy Communion - which is a pastoral approach.
Click to expand...
If the canon calls for denying then it is within the prerogative of the Bishop. If a Bishop chooses to deny one communion that is pastoral. It is medicinal. It may be viewed as “bad” by the many who reason with emotion rather than with the Church but so be it.

The Bishop in this thread has not chosen to deny which is his right. I have no reason to claim I can bind anyone, yet alone a bishop. I am simply agreeing with the Church.
 
fix said:
If the canon calls for denying then it is within the prerogative of the Bishop. If a Bishop chooses to deny one communion that is pastoral. It is medicinal. It may be viewed as “bad” by the many who reason with emotion rather than with the Church but so be it.

The Bishop in this thread has not chosen to deny which is his right. I have no reason to claim I can bind anyone, yet alone a bishop. I am simply agreeing with the Church.
Click to expand...
Have you looked at it from the other side as well?

Many on this forum who reason with emotion rather than the Church declare that it is “bad” for Bishops to permit politicians who support abortion and SSM to receive communion.

To me that is just as wrong minded as those who say it is “bad” for Bishops to withhold communion. The way I see it is…

If you disagree with the Bishops who permit communion and
claim to be in agreement with the Church on this issue, then
it’s the same as saying the Bishops are in disagreement with the Church on this issue.

I don’t mean “you” as in you personally, but “you” in the general sense. I honestly find this perplexing and am not just just arguing for the sake of arguing.
 
estesbob said:
Agreed-Communion is not used as a “weapon” to attack people who are rejecting Church teaching. They are counseled not to receive. That is the Pastoral approach. They then receive communion at their own spiritual risk.
Click to expand...
It’s nice when we agree. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top