Devin Nunes: AG Jeff Sessions should be held in contempt of Congress

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jagged said:
I provided a direct quote. You said that he didn’t say that. So I must have made it up and hence I would be a liar.
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I don’t know why you’re so anxious to be called a liar.

I did not call you one. You provided a quote that you interpreted as having a particular meaning. I said in response that the quote did not have the meaning you gave it.

I’m willing to accept that you believed yourself. I just don’t agree with you. So take a pill or something.
 
jagged said:
Now you are defending what he said after saying I made it up. You really do have the Republican playbook down, don’t you?
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never did I say you made up the statement. You provided your interpretation of it, an interpretation with which I do not agree.

I doubt it’s in any Republican playbook.
 
jagged said:
you absolutely meant that he didn’t say what I quoted and you are now trying to pretend that you didn’t mean what you said above.
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If I intended to call you a liar, I would say it again right here and now. But Trump did not say the words of your interpretation. he just didn’t. Your interpretation is incorrect, and that’s all I said.
jagged said:
Yes, that is the Republican playbook
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never saw a Republican playbook. I guess you have.
 
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Ridgerunner said:
Oh, I see the liberal tag team is beginning to assemble. Can’t handle it one-on-one, and have to gang up?
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Usually the way such things go. You’re doing fine in your arguments. You can lead horses to water, but the donkeys will bray and ignore.
 
We’ll, it was that well-known liberal Paul Ryan who said Trump’s words were “the textbook definition of a racist comment.”

I’m still somewhat flabbergasted that you’re defending (and reinterpreting) what he said

I’m pretty sure I’ve defended Trump, and given him credit when credit was due, more often than you’ve not chosen to defend the indefensible.
 
Inisfallen said:
We’ll, it was that well-known liberal Paul Ryan who said Trump’s words were “the textbook definition of a racist comment.”
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Paul Ryan might have said other things with which I would not agree as well.

Personally, I think naming an organization “La Raza” is racist.
 
jagged said:
You implied I was a liar. He said the words I quoted. You said he didn’t
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No. I did not question the quoted words, only the interpretation you gave them.

But if you want to think yourself a person who was called a liar, I can’t prevent it. You’ll think what you want to think, no matter what.
 
jagged said:
No reasonable person would read this as anything but an accusation that I made it up, but you say you meant something different, which speaks more to your poor communications skills than anything. No wonder you don’t know what torture is.
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This is so unnecessarily mean-spirited that I think any reasonable person reading it would think your other, quite incorrect, statements as the baiting that I think it is.

You want me to call you a liar. I’m not going to do it.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Personally, I think naming an organization “La Raza” is racist.
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I don’t. I vaguely remember that we’ve had this conversation before, and that I didn’t think an organization named La Raza is necessarily different from a large number of other ethnically-based organizations for lawyers, none of which I’ve heard anyone here object to.

In any event, Trump did not cite Curiel’s membership in any organization as grounds for believing that the judge was treating him unfairly, he cited his actual ethnicity.

Digging into Curiel’s memberships in various organizations, and then attempting to paint those organizations as racist, is merely deflection.
 
jagged said:
Right, it’s very mean spirited to interpret words to point out how any reasonable person would interpret “He didn’t say that” when referring to a post with a direct quote. It’s also not mean-spirited to point out that, if you didn’t mean that, your communication skills are poor.
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If you don’t see why it’s mean-spirited, nothing I or anyone else can say will impart the requisite insight.
 
Ridgerunner said:
But “La Raza” means “the race”. You don’t see anything “racist” in that?
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I’m not a Spanish speaker, but I understand that “The Race” is an accurate literal translation of “La Raza.” As a well-read person (or so it appears from your posts here), you understand that literal translations as often or not don’t capture the actual meanings of words and phrases. My Spanish-speaking friends, including those of Mexican and Central American descent, tell me that idiomatically, it isn’t quite the same, it’s more like “our people,” or something like that.

And no, I don’t see anything racist in it. At all.

In any event, (a) this is no different from the many ethnically-based lawyers’ associations that flourish around the country (and about which those who want to paint La Raza as a racist organization never say anything), and (b) Trump did not refer to Curiel’s membership in that or any other organization, but to his actual ethnicity.
 
I doubt any white organization called “The Race” would meet with your approval. And frankly, I doubt any organization dedicated to the benefit of the white race would meet with your approval no matter what it called itself. I think if I belonged to a white benefit group called “The Race” I would have a different explanation of the name too.

I realize there are a handful of token non-Hispanics in their various programs, but if one looks it all up, it’s very token.

I said right off that I believe Trump’s statement was inept. He mentioned Curiel “being a Mexican” while he, Trump, was working on shutting off illegal immigration. He didn’t mention Curiel’s work for illegals, but he was probably aware of it. If you look at his statement, he just cut it off, probably realizing that he was not going to be able to really explain himself.

And he has never been able to, not matter what he said afterward. It’s just part of what it is to live in America now. You have to be really careful what you say so it can’t be misconstrued. Trump’s not careful. Still isn’t.

I’m aware of “ethnically-based” lawyers’ organizations. One of my daughters is a member of the Irish Lawyers’ Association and the “Italian Lawyers’ Association”, both of which are just party vehicles and which you can join even if you’re Polish or black.

And there are separatist groups associated with La Raza as well.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I doubt any white organization called “The Race” would meet with your approval. And frankly, I doubt any organization dedicated to the benefit of the white race would meet with your approval no matter what it called itself. I think if I belonged to a white benefit group called “The Race” I would have a different explanation of the name too.
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You’re completely sidestepping my point that a literal translation is not necessarily an accurate translation.

I’m as good with the Latino Lawyers Association of Queens County as I am with the the Irish American Bar Association of New York.

Trump quite clearly said that Judge Curiel was treating him (Trump) unfairly because Curiel (an American, born in the United States) was of Mexican heritage and Trump was going to build a wall, etc., not because Curiel was a member of any particular organization. I seriously doubt that Trump was aware of Curiel’s membership in this organization, or even of this organization’s existence (although admittedly I can’t prove that).

I, and many others, understood him perfectly. I don’t think I misconstrued anything. People used to say the same kind of thing about black judges back in the civil rights era. It was wrong then, it’s wrong now.

And yes, the President of the United States, or a candidate for that office, does have to be really careful with what he says. Of course. That’s as it should be.

As to groups “associated” with La Raza, there are many groups with that phrase in their name. Some may be separatist. I don’t know. I don’t care. Since Trump was not talking about Curiel’s membership in a group with that name, it’s not relevant to this discussion at all.
 
Inisfallen said:
Mexican and Central American descent
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As I understand it, Central Americans really aren’t part of “La Raza” conceptually, though there are some who are members of the organization. it’s really a Mexican thing.

Not really being an expert, I probably shouldn’t go much further with this, but it is interesting to me and perhaps to you that part of the devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe is tied in with notions of “the race”. As you probably know, there was an Aztec (and not just Aztec, but Nahuatl speakers) legend that the god Quetzelcoatl (sometimes portrayed as a serpent) would someday return to the land and destroy the Aztec people. In some versions of the legend, he was white, with a beard.

To some Aztecs, then, the Spanish fit the bill, including with the destruction, and when disease nearly wiped them out and was still doing it, Our Lady appeared in the garb of an Aztec princess and of a seemingly mixed hue and features. At that time, there were already a significant number of mixed people in that area. Some say she didn’t actually say “Guadalupe” but (in Nahuatl) “Coatlashupe” which means the conquerer of Quetzalcoatl. A snake is beneath her feet. And so, she was promising to save the mixed population from extinction as well as from damnation.

And so, Our Lady of Guadalupe has a significance that goes beyond what so many of her persona have, and it’s why so many Mexicans have her image on their cars, their stores, their necks, in a way that other Catholics do not.

And it’s part of the reason why the concept of “the race” among non-Mayan Mexicans has a meaning that it does not to Anglos.
 
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Inisfallen said:
By the way, here’s the website of the San Diego La Raza Lawyers’ Association:

https://sdlrla.com/

It’s worth a look at one particular page, on which they explain the term “La Raza;”

The Name • San Diego La Raza Lawyers Association

They seem pretty innocuous to me.
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I have long ago explored their site and a lot of their sub-sites, of which they have many. I did not say they’re bomb-throwers, but they certainly are dedicated to the benefit of “the race”, and the more you look at their sub-sites, the clearer it gets. Of course, they’re not a “race” to us, but in their minds they are.

And even the KKK has an innocuous explanation of its purpose. Every group always does.
 
It is interesting (and I attend Mass at Our Lady of Guadalupe parish in NYC from time to time, which is somewhat surprisingly quite traditionalist, at least at the English-language Masses, with the celebrant ad orientam, and so on).

That said, I still have to point out the inadequacy and possible inaccuracy of literal translations of anything, including the term “la raza.”
 
Ridgerunner said:
but they certainly are dedicated to the benefit of “the race”,
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It’s much more accurate to say that they’re dedicated to the benefit of “the [or our] community,” I would say.

Very different.
 
Inisfallen said:
It’s much more accurate to say that they’re dedicated to the benefit of “the [or our] community,” I would say.

Very different.
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Maybe not so much. After all, you can’t be a member of “La Cosa Nostra” (our thing) without being Sicilian or at least Neopolitan. And practically every Indian tribe’s name (in their language) was simply “the people”. And of course there was “die volk”.
 
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