Devotion to Mary is it ever "to much"

[jwinch2]

I find it rather funny just because some Saints had a strong devotion to Mary, that they should automatically be rejected because it has to do with loving Mary, and we cant love Her because it may offend Christ.

No one has said that at all. What has been said is that because they are saints, not everything they said should be automatically accepted. There is a stark difference.

Nothing that I have given is “out of context” It’s been shown when we love and honor Mary in proper form there is nothing “Too Much”

Yes, you have taken things out of context. And as to your second point, “in proper form” are the key words. What some have suggested on here is that there are those who do not always do things in the proper form.

 

[De_Montfort]

No one has said that at all. What has been said is that because they are saints, not everything they said should be automatically accepted. There is a stark difference.

Yes, you have taken things out of context. And as to your second point, “in proper form” are the key words. What some have suggested on here is that there are those who do not always do things in the proper form.

I just posted above that John Paul II stated that De Montforts teachings are in line with The Catholic Church’s teachings.

Holy Pope and a Saints or someones opinon? This is easy the answer is Holy Pope and Saints.

I have not stated anything out of context, I have made my point in more then one place.
Mary gives everything to Christ and having a great love for Her does not deprive Christ of love, for two reasons, Mary gives it (love) to Jesus and in turn she inflames our heart to love Christ more. I don’t know of these false devotions you are trying to portray that reject Christ. If you truly know Mary, you would know that is a false opinion.

 

[Brooklyn]

I never stated that any saint taught something wrong on Mary. I said that not everything that saints wrote or said is true and part of the deposit of faith.

Yes, it’s true that not everything that every saint said or did is dogma of the Church. But when you have all saints down through the ages agreeing about something, that is a pretty good indication that we can accept it as true. And it is a fact that you will be hard pressed to find any saint who did not have a strong devotion to Mary. It is also a fact that no saint ever wrote that devotion to Mary can be excessive. It is further a fact that nowhere does the Church tell us that we have to be careful about excessive devotion to Mary. As I said, the only place I have ever seen this warning is from posters here on CAF.

I live in New York City which has a large Hispanic population. They are for the most part very devout Catholics, and I have yet to meet any Catholic Hispanic who does not have a deep devotion to Mary. They all know that Our Lady of Guadalupe is the one who brought them to Christ, and they have an intense love for her. That is just one example of those with a deep devotion to Mary who are incredibly devoted to Christ and his Church. Those Hispanics who leave the Church are also those who have lost their devotion to Mary. Do you think that is just a coincidence?

 

[jwinch2]

Interestingly, St. Louis de Montfort himself seems to have taught on false devotion to Mary.
theotokos.org.uk/pages/appdisce/montfort.html

St. Louis also dealt with true and false devotion to Mary. Speaking of his own era he complained how, “The devil, like a counterfeiter and crafty and experienced deceiver, has already misled and ruined many Christians by means of fraudulent devotions to our Lady.” Obviously “fraudulent devotions,” also includes the possibility of false apparitions, and if that was true three hundred years ago, then it is even more the case today.

He then goes on to make an extremely important point, one which clearly indicates that some modern apparitions must be false: “A counterfeiter usually makes coins only of gold and silver, rarely of other methods, because these latter would not be worth the trouble. Similarly, the devil leaves other devotions alone and counterfeits those mostly directed to Jesus and Mary … because these are to other devotions what gold and silver are to other metals.”

Thus unless the devil has radically changed his method of operation, which seems unlikely if not impossible, given that his opposition to the divine remains unchanged, then some of the modern alleged apparitions of Mary must be false. As is indicated in the section on biblical prophecy and apparitions the devil’s usual approach is to copy an authentic prophecy, writing, movement or devotion and “flood the market” with forgeries, thus sowing confusion and causing problems for the Church.

Thus it is certain that the authentic Marian apparitions have been counterfeited and that in all probability many, if not most, of the modern alleged apparitions are false. This may seem like an extreme statement, but the facts will bear it out.

I have to admit that I also get very concerned when I see quotes from saints stating that Christ must do something. For example a quote admittedly taken out of context: It was through the blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus Christ came into the world, and it is also through her that he must reign in the world. He may choose to reign however he wishes, but I cannot see how he must do something. Perhaps someone can place this quote in context for me. As it stands now, it seems quite excessive to me.

 

[maltmom]

Everything is done in union with Mary because God has willed it to be so. The Holy Spirit has not rejected His spouse Mary. Everything he does is through Her, all grace comes to us through Her hands. Mary is His inseperable Spouse, their union is so close that the have “one sole life” together. They have the same mission in their union of love!

As a new Catholic I’m trying to learn as much as I can. Will please tell me where I can find in the catechism or a magisterial document that I can read that says/explains, in official terms, that Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks!

 

[De_Montfort]

Interestingly, St. Louis de Montfort himself seems to have taught on false devotion to Mary.
theotokos.org.uk/pages/appdisce/montfort.html

Yes he did teach against false devotion to Mary, but it had to do with those who say they love her and yet still live a life of sin. He preached againt those who proclaim to love Mary and fail to follow the commandments of Her Son.

He never taught against loving or honoring Mary too much, and he said we simply do these things to honor Christ and the more perfectly. Marian devotion is all about Christ, When we love Mary we are imitating Christ.

Now that is taken “out of context” what was just posted or should I say misrepresented!

 

[jwinch2]

Satan hates her above all creatures because as we are told in Genesis, her heel crushes his head.

Maybe, maybe not. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=564598

Mary was crowned by the Trinity as Queen of all of God’s creation. She is the only human who was ever assumed into heaven both body and soul.

Maybe, maybe not. catholic.com/quickquestions/was-elijah-assumed-into-heaven-before-mary

 

[jwinch2]

Yes he did teach against false devotion to Mary, but it had to do with those who say they love her and yet still live a life of sin. He preached againt those who proclaim to love Mary and fail to follow the commandments of Her Son.

He never taught against loving or honoring Mary too much, and he said we simply do these things to honor Christ and the more perfectly. Marian devotion is all about Christ, When we love Mary we are imitating Christ.

Now that is taken “out of context” what was just posted or should I say misrepresented!

I freely admit that it would be out of context, which is why I supplied the link to where I found it and made the claim that it “seems” to state something rather than making a more concrete statement. In addition, the interpretation supplied along with the quotes used, was most certainly not mine.

 

[De_Montfort]

As a new Catholic I’m trying to learn as much as I can. Will please tell me where I can find in the catechism or a magisterial document that I can read that says/explains, in official terms, that Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks!

CCC 721 -726 shows the union of Mary and the Holy Spirit and their mission to bring about union with the “whole Christ”

 

[GraceDK]

The church describes Mary as the daughter of the Father, the Mother of the Son and the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. No human being, no other part of any of God’s Creation was or is as close to the Trinity as the Blessed Mother. From the moment of her conception, much less the moment of her birth, her will has always been completely at one with the Trinity.

**Are you sure? Im not sure what you mean by this. I know Mary comitted no actual sin, but to say that she was completely at one with the Trinity is streching things too much… you might wanna give me a source (binding teaching document ) please. **

She was chosen and prepared to bear the Son of God. Satan hates her above all creatures because as we are told in Genesis, her heel crushes his head.

I think that Genesis says: " I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." Referring to the offspring, meaning Christ. Its was indeed Christ who defeated satan through His death and resurrection through which he alone won life for us. I hope there’s no doubt in your mind about the order of these things.

Mary was crowned by the Trinity as Queen of all of God’s creation. She is the only human who was ever assumed into heaven both body and soul.

Are you sure…It seems Enoch and Elijah might have the same privilege. We also know that Jesus Christ, who is fully human, and fully God, is in Heaven body and soul.

Most certainly no one would ever argue that grace, mercy and salvation come from God. But just as he came to earth through Mary, he sends his graces through her as well. Please notice that I used the word “through”, not “from.” There is a huge difference. God does not have to use Mary, but he has chosen to do that. As St. Louis de Montfort wrote, “It was through the blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus Christ came into the world, and it is also through her that he must reign in the world.”

Since I don’t regard Montforts every word as a doctrinal fact for me to follow I don’t think its so important for me what he said. I have pointed out before that I think his language is exaggerated. Jesus came into this world through the womb of Mary, meaning He has his DNA from her. Thats a huge privilege, you are right, but I don’t believe he is sending graces through her, or even I dont understand what you mean by that. It seems you are limiting the actions of God so they have to go through a creature in heaven. I don’t think thats a way I agree to putting things at all, and it makes little sense.

 

[De_Montfort]

From: "True Devotion to Mary"

“There are, I find, seven kinds of false devotion to Mary, namely, the devotion of 1 the critical, 2 the scrupulous, 3 the superficial, 4 the presumptuous, 5 the inconstant, 6 the hypocritical, 7 the self interested”

These are what he taught as false, and what you get out of them is more of a lack of love and respect for Mary. He never taught you can love the Virgin Mary “too much”

 

[De_Montfort]

…

Sounds like a rejection of the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. It’s like if one is married and asked to come to a party, but the person says, don’t bring your wife, I don’t care to much for her, and frankly I don’t understand her. Now would that not offend the Spouse.

It is GOD who choses to do everything through Mary, not because he ‘has’ to but because he ‘wants’ to. It is in no way showing a weakness to God, it’s just the simple fact that God uses Mary, “She is his mystic channel, his aqueduct, through which he causes his mercies to flow gently and abundantly.”

 

[Cavaradossi]

Sounds like a rejection of the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. It’s like if one is married and asked to come to a party, but the person says, don’t bring your wife, I don’t care to much for her, and frankly I don’t understand her. Now would that not offend the Spouse.

It is GOD who choses to do everything through Mary, not because he ‘has’ to but because he ‘wants’ to. It is in no way showing a weakness to God, it’s just the simple fact that God uses Mary, “She is his mystic channel, his aqueduct, through which he causes his mercies to flow gently and abundantly.”

But what about the other saints? Does God only work in them in a mediate fashion, through Mary who would work in them in an immediate fashion?

 

[De_Montfort]

But what about the other saints? Does God only work in them in a mediate fashion, through Mary who would work in them in an immediate fashion?

From "True devotion to Mary"
“Mary alone found grace before God without the help of an other creature. All those who have since found grace before God have found it only through Her.”

jwinch2:

have to admit that I also get very concerned when I see quotes from saints stating that Christ must do something. For example a quote admittedly taken out of context: It was through the blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus Christ came into the world, and it is also through her that he must reign in the world. He may choose to reign however he wishes, but I cannot see how he must do something. Perhaps someone can place this quote in context for me. As it stands now, it seems quite excessive to me.

From "True devotion to Mary"

“We must take care, however, not to consider this dependence as an abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary, infinitely inferior to her Son, who is God, does not command Him in the same way as an earthly mother would command her child who is beneath her. Since she is completely transformed in God by that grace and glory which transforms all the saints in him, she does not ask or wish to do anything contrary to the eternal and unchangeable will of God.”

 

[jwinch2]

From "True devotion to Mary"

“We must take care, however, not to consider this dependence as an abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary, infinitely inferior to her Son, who is God, does not command Him in the same way as an earthly mother would command her child who is beneath her. Since she is completely transformed in God by that grace and glory which transforms all the saints in him, she does not ask or wish to do anything contrary to the eternal and unchangeable will of God.”

Is that in his writings immediately following quote about how Christ must rule through Mary? It does not seem to add up nor explain why Christ must rule through her.

 

[De_Montfort]

Is that in his writings immediately following quote about how Christ must rule through Mary? It does not seem to add up nor explain why Christ must rule through her.

It doesn’t change the fact that God choses to do everything through Mary. It’s not a weakness, just the simple fact that it is His will! You can’t seperate Mary and God,

 

[Brooklyn]

GraceDK - the way you answer posts makes it impossible to quote you, so I’ve copied your post here.

Are you sure? Im not sure what you mean by this. I know Mary comitted no actual sin, but to say that she was completely at one with the Trinity is streching things too much… you might wanna give me a source (binding teaching document ) please.

You’ve answered your own question. Mary was conceived without sin and remained sinless for her entire life. That means she was completely at one with the Holy Trinity. There is absolutely no stretch there at all. Being completely without sin means being completely at one with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No sin means no separation. That could not be said about any other human being except our Lord, of course, because everyone else was born with original sin. When we pray “Hail Mary, full of grace”, those are not just words. Mary was always completely filled with grace. That means she was never stained with sin. She was always in union with God. That is basic teaching of the Church.

I think that Genesis says: " I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." Referring to the offspring, meaning Christ. Its was indeed Christ who defeated satan through His death and resurrection through which he alone won life for us. I hope there’s no doubt in your mind about the order of these things.

Yes, of course, ultimately all salvation is from our Lord. No one here or anywhere else is saying salvation is from Mary. Here is a very good explanation from catholicbible101.com:

In the last book of the Bible, Revelation (or Apocalypse), in the 12th chapter, there is a huge battle going on (enmity) between Mary, the woman clothed with the sun who gives birth to a savior, and the devil. The devil tries to take her out, but God miraculously rescues her and her child by putting them into the desert, away from Herod’s evil clutches. Revelation 12:17 says that we are her children if we obey the commandments and bear testimony to her son, Jesus. **This is a great bookend to the Garden of Eden, where an immaculately created virgin, Eve, says yes to the demon Lucifer, and allowed sin to enter the world. ** Mary, also an immaculately created virgin, says yes to the angel Gabriel, and allowed salvation to enter the world. Eve came out of Adam, Jesus came out of Mary.

It was through Mary that Christ came into the world and through her (again, not from her) that he brings salvation to the world and crushes the head of Satan.

Are you sure…It seems Enoch and Elijah might have the same privilege. We also know that Jesus Christ, who is fully human, and fully God, is in Heaven body and soul.

There can be speculation about Enoch and Elijah, but there is no definite teaching on it, as jwinch2 pointed out. It is dogma of the Church that Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul and that is not taught about anyone else, of course with the exception of our Lord.

Since I don’t regard Montforts every word as a doctrinal fact for me to follow I don’t think its so important for me what he said. I have pointed out before that I think his language is exaggerated. Jesus came into this world through the womb of Mary, meaning He has his DNA from her. Thats a huge privilege, you are right, but I don’t believe he is sending graces through her, or even I dont understand what you mean by that. It seems you are limiting the actions of God so they have to go through a creature in heaven. I don’t think thats a way I agree to putting things at all, and it makes little sense.

The Catholic Church has put her imprimatur on everything St. Louis de Montfort wrote. He is considered the authority on Marian devotion and as I have posted, he is up as a candidate for doctor of the church. You may think whatever you want to think, but all of his writings have the full approval of the Catholic Church. His cannonization took over 200 years, and if you wish to read about it, you can go here. Here is just one excerpt from that about the examination of his writings:

Finally, on May 7, 1853, it was made public that the deliberations of the congregation had revealed nothing in the writings of Montfort that constituted an obstacle to the pursuit of his cause. The Holy Father approved and confirmed this rescript of the Sacred Congregation on May 12, 1853.

That means there is nothing in St. Louis de Montfort’s writings that go against church teaching including the quote that “It was through the blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus Christ came into the world, and it is also through her that he must reign in the world.”

 

[Brooklyn]

Is that in his writings immediately following quote about how Christ must rule through Mary? It does not seem to add up nor explain why Christ must rule through her.

Christ doesn’t have to do anything. St. Louis de Montfort is saying that Christ must rule through Mary because that is what he has chosen to do. Christ declared on the cross as he was dying that Mary is the mother of the church and we are all her children. He will never go back on that.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

GraceDK - the way you answer posts makes it impossible to quote you, so I’ve copied your post here.

You’ve answered your own question. Mary was conceived without sin and remained sinless for her entire life. That means she was completely at one with the Holy Trinity. There is absolutely no stretch there at all. Being completely without sin means being completely at one with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No sin means no separation. That could not be said about any other human being except our Lord, of course, because everyone else was born with original sin. When we pray “Hail Mary, full of grace”, those are not just words. Mary was always completely filled with grace. That means she was never stained with sin. She was always in union with God. That is basic teaching of the Church.

Yes, of course, ultimately all salvation is from our Lord. No one here or anywhere else is saying salvation is from Mary. Here is a very good explanation from catholicbible101.com:

In the last book of the Bible, Revelation (or Apocalypse), in the 12th chapter, there is a huge battle going on (enmity) between Mary, the woman clothed with the sun who gives birth to a savior, and the devil. The devil tries to take her out, but God miraculously rescues her and her child by putting them into the desert, away from Herod’s evil clutches. Revelation 12:17 says that we are her children if we obey the commandments and bear testimony to her son, Jesus. **This is a great bookend to the Garden of Eden, where an immaculately created virgin, Eve, says yes to the demon Lucifer, and allowed sin to enter the world. ** Mary, also an immaculately created virgin, says yes to the angel Gabriel, and allowed salvation to enter the world. Eve came out of Adam, Jesus came out of Mary.

It was through Mary that Christ came into the world and through her (again, not from her) that he brings salvation to the world and crushes the head of Satan.

There can be speculation about Enoch and Elijah, but there is no definite teaching on it, as jwinch2 pointed out. It is dogma of the Church that Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul and that is not taught about anyone else, of course with the exception of our Lord.

The Catholic Church has put her imprimatur on everything St. Louis de Montfort wrote. He is considered the authority on Marian devotion and as I have posted, he is up as a candidate for doctor of the church. You may think whatever you want to think, but all of his writings have the full approval of the Catholic Church. His cannonization took over 200 years, and if you wish to read about it, you can go here. Here is just one excerpt from that about the examination of his writings:

Finally, on May 7, 1853, it was made public that the deliberations of the congregation had revealed nothing in the writings of Montfort that constituted an obstacle to the pursuit of his cause. The Holy Father approved and confirmed this rescript of the Sacred Congregation on May 12, 1853.

That means there is nothing in St. Louis de Montfort’s writings that go against church teaching including the quote that “It was through the blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus Christ came into the world, and it is also through her that he must reign in the world.”

Thanks Brooklyn for answering all that. It is very helpful and informative.

 

[jwinch2]

It doesn’t change the fact that God choses to do everything through Mary. It’s not a weakness, just the simple fact that it is His will! You can’t seperate Mary and God,

It doesn’t change the fact that choosing to do something and having to do something are two separate things entirely. Having no information to the contrary, I assume that St. Louis de Montfort picked his words carefully and said what he meant to. In addition, I also assume his writings have been translated accurately. If those two assumptions hold true, what he said was that Christ must reign through Mary, not chose or chooses to.