Devotion To Mary

[narrow_path]

Hello again benedictus2

“Read the account of the Wedding at Cana. Jesus said it was not His time when Mary told Him that they had no wine. He even said what does it have to do with you and me. But notice what happens next straight after He said it was not His time. The following line just has Mary saying to the servants : Do what He tells you. There was no discussion of whether He should or should not help. Mary was confident His Son will listen to her. Then Jesus performs His FIRST miracle OUTSIDE OF HIS TIME. Think about it, Mary’s intercession SO MOVED GOD, that He performed His first miracle OUTSIDE OF HIS TIME. She herself did not perform the miracle but at her pleading GOD DID. The sad thing about your unbelief is that you are like the wedding couple. They did not have to ask Mary. Mary was just observant and solicitous for their happiness so without being asked she intercedes for them. And she does the same thing to all of us. The only difference is we recognize her concern for our welfare both temporal and spiritual, you don’t. She Mothers us all. We recognize that and give thanks. You don’t.”
Thanks for following my posts—you must like talking with me? Maybe not. But let me provide some substance to your Catholic indoctrination. After Mary tells the people, “Do what He tells you”, you take this to mean that “Mary was confident His Son will listen to her.” I let my 12-year old read this statement, and she laughed saying that it “made no sense.” I did not have to tell her anything. So, even a 12-year old can use a little common sense! (minus the Catholic indoctrination) Of course, Mary was being obedient as she normally was, but her statement does not say nor imply that because of the fact that she backed off when Jesus put her in check that this now means it was because of HER backing off (or shutting up) that God now decided to perform His first miracle! So, we should all be thanking Mary for moving God in such a way that He turned water into wine because had she not done that, He would not have?? Yikes! Then, you mention her ability for intercession—where is this ability found in Scripture? When does Jesus give this to her? Further, you’re right—I don’t consider her my mother in any sense because, for starters, she does not even know I exist. She was an obedient, redeemed sinner who is more than likely in the presence of Christ this moment (just as all believers are). There is not a shred of biblical evidence that she has ANY of these abilities or characteristics that you speak of. Once again, you have no Scripture with your reply. What else is new? In conclusion, there is no precedent to give thanks to someone who has died long ago and does not even know you exist. Sure, I appreciate what she did long ago, but praise and worship is over the top—and unbiblical.

 

[narrow_path]

Hi Cinette, you say over two posts:

"God is our Father
Jesus is His Son – therefore he is our brother
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and since Jesus is God the Son she is our Mother also

We Catholics are taught to honour our Father and Mother – the family is all important. The Holy Family is our model. St Joseph is also a model and mentor. Jesus turned to John at the foot of the cross and said “Behold your Mother”. Mary belongs to all of humanity. She is the Mother of God. Protestants such as Luther, Calvin and Zwingli all believed this. As Protestantism was watered down and splintered over time Mary became less important to Protestants. Again, as on the other thread you display ignorance of language and culture. You suggest that Jesus did not call his Mother Mother but Woman instead, as if this is a bad thing. Firstly, not everything about Jesus’ life is recorded in the Bible. He only came on the scene when he was 30. I am sure he would have honoured his Mother and called her Mother. Now calling her Woman - you seem to consider this something lowly or demeaning? I am French and in my language a man refers to his wife as “Ma femme” (my woman). My Portuguese husband often calls me “Minha mulher” (My woman) or Minha mulherzinha (My little woman) – both are beautiful and terms of endearment. I am sure that in other latin languages the same thing occurs. You should really get an education and learn about different people and their culture. You tend to make rash judgments. We Catholics love our Heavenly Mother. My husband, who was atheist and who came to believe God through a Jewish Scientist, converted to the Catholic Church 4 years ago. He had no problem at all embracing and honouring Mary. He is a well-read intellectual and immediately saw the value of Mary. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead His Church into all truth and that is exactly what He did. I guess you think that the Holy Spirit took a “rain check” and only “kicked in” at the time of Luther, 1500 years later. How absurd!

according to the dictionary “umbilical” means “proceeding from the naval” - how is that? Your choice of words leave me astounded!:

What! You call Mary nothing more than a dead sinner??? What an insult! This is probably something you would describe as “umbilical” since you have a problem with the English language. That is my position. Your position is that you obviously do not believe in Eternal Life because you described Mary as “nothing more than a dead sinner” - May God help you!

Further evidence that you have never heard of the Resurrection and therefore Eternal Life!!

No Narrow! What is happening here is that you have not come to CAF with an honest Agenda to debate, discourse and seek answers. You, Narrow, have come here to insult and ridicule. What is your Agenda?"

You are so unfamiliar with Scripture, I am not sure whether to laugh or cry. But first let me say, my intentions here are not to insult, but rather to engage others in biblical dialogue so Truth can be revealed. I noticed you were insulted at me when I called Mary a dead sinner. Check out Luke 1:47 and Luke 2:22-24. In Luke 1, she expressed the God was her Savior—and only sinners need a Savior. Luke 2 presents Mary offering a sin offering to the Jewish priest arising out of her state of sin. Your problem does not lie with me—but with the Word of God. Further, when Christ calls His mother “woman”, this was a very uncustomary thing for a Jewish boy to do. Most Jewish scholars see this as an outright sign of disrespect—but not all. The point is clear: Jesus had a mission to carry out, and Mary was just a small piece of the puzzle who sometimes got in the way. So whether your French language supports the idea of calling your mother “woman” or not, in Jewish culture, this was extremely uncustomary—and that is the point.

Yes, Christ told John, “behold, your mother” at the foot of the cross. But what does this mean? The answer is clear: Christ said, “While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (Mat. 12:46-50) This does not give me the impression that Christ gave special treatment to his mother….nor does it imply that Mary is the “mother of us all”……just the opposite is true.

By the way, please tell me that the best you can do is not capitalize on a spelling error-- “umbilical”. Surely you know that this was supposed to be unbiblical. Sigh

 

[Poor_Clare_tobe]

Dear Sister

I credit my return to the church to our lady of Mount Carmel. I was away from the church for 20 years. However I continued to wear a brown scapular all the time. When I had had enough of the sinful life I was leading a mental picture of Mary came to my mind. I asked her to help me and immediately prayed the Hail Mary. I returned to mass the following Sunday and have gone every week since and that was two years ago. The blessed mother led me back to her Son. It may sound silly, but looking back I think of that brown scapular as a life line. I now pray the rosary daily, have improved my prayerlife, and my relationship with Jesus. I have a long way to go but I credit the blessed mother with leading me to her son.

2 Favorite Hymns-- Immaculate Mary and Hail Holy Queen

God Bless

Welcome Home!

Fr Corapi tells us in his story of his return to Holy Mother Church that it all began with “one Hail Mary” that “one Hail Mary” led him to the Rosary that led him to understand Christs Life. Miracles have abounded in our History from the time of Our Lady of the Pillar in the first century to present day.
Again welcome back and keep praying… as you can see your Church needs good people to continue to pray!!!

My favorite hymns to Mary??? Hail Holy Queen and Immaculate Mary.

Blessings of Peace and All Good!.. In Jesus and His Holy Mother
*

 

[Cinette]

Narrow!

So I made a mistake and failed to see that you meant unbiblical instead of umbilical. I was blinded with astonishment at the time at the things you were saying about our Heavenly Mother. But can you blame me for thinking that you had made another error?

Look at the following quotation from another thread from which you had ducked before answering my posting:

Narrow Path wrote:

There are many factors in the Greek text to consider. EVERY time Peter is referred to in the passage it is in the second person (you), conversely “this rock” is in the third person. Therefore, they do not agree with each other and do not refer to the same thing.

I responded:

“you are Peter“ is certainly in the second person but “this rock” is certainly not in the third person simply because it is in no person at all. “This” is a demonstrative pronoun and “rock” is a noun. The third person would be: “ he is”. Now if Jesus was not referring to Peter who or what was He referring to, a rock on the ground? Hardly. To say that Jesus was referring to himself as the rock, does not make sense.

I have engaged with Protestants on these forums who can discuss and exchange without insulting and displaying outright hatred. Oh there have been a couple like you for sure.

This thread was started by a nun with a devotion to our Heavenly Mother Mary. Others who share her devotion exchanged prayers and comments and suddenly you came on the scene with your vitriolic, spiteful and ugly rantings. You said things that were offensive and hurtful to those who love Mary.

We are entitled to our beliefs so what was your purpose? What did you want to achieve? I do not believe that your intentions were to engage in serious exchange. You were there to make mischief and upset others.

You have derailed the thread completely. You should not be here.

 

[narrow_path]

Cinette—

Narrow! So I made a mistake and failed to see that you meant unbiblical instead of umbilical. I was blinded with astonishment at the time at the things you were saying about our Heavenly Mother. But can you blame me for thinking that you had made another error? Look at the following quotation from another thread from which you had ducked before answering my posting:

Narrow Path wrote:
There are many factors in the Greek text to consider. EVERY time Peter is referred to in the passage it is in the second person (you), conversely “this rock” is in the third person. Therefore, they do not agree with each other and do not refer to the same thing.

I responded:
“you are Peter“ is certainly in the second person but “this rock” is certainly not in the third person simply because it is in no person at all. “This” is a demonstrative pronoun and “rock” is a noun. The third person would be: “ he is”. Now if Jesus was not referring to Peter who or what was He referring to, a rock on the ground? Hardly. To say that Jesus was referring to himself as the rock, does not make sense. I have engaged with Protestants on these forums who can discuss and exchange without insulting and displaying outright hatred. Oh there have been a couple like you for sure. This thread was started by a nun with a devotion to our Heavenly Mother Mary. Others who share her devotion exchanged prayers and comments and suddenly you came on the scene with your vitriolic, spiteful and ugly rantings. You said things that were offensive and hurtful to those who love Mary. We are entitled to our beliefs so what was your purpose? What did you want to achieve? I do not believe that your intentions were to engage in serious exchange. You were there to make mischief and upset others. You have derailed the thread completely. You should not be here.

Since you have completely ignored my response and shifted topics, does this mean I can respond to you off topic? First, the administrators of this site assured me that I was indeed welcome to make posts as a Protestant. I have not personally attacked ANYONE. What was apparently considered offensive and hurtful came DIRECTLY FROM SCRIPTURE. This fact should tell you something. ALL of my responses use Scripture to defend my positions. This is why I already mentioned that my motive or goal was to engage in theological dialogue in order to get to the Truth. In fact, I purposely did not respond to those who did not respond to me—most likely the nun (and her friends). That is fine with me if she chooses to believe Marian dogma. And, if the Holy Spirit cannot convince her otherwise, who can? In any event, it is not my goal in life to change her mind—or anyone’s—unless the Spirit illumines the Truth of Scripture to them. Keep in mind that what you call “vitriolic, spiteful and ugly rantings” come directly from the Word of God. Perhaps the light bulb will go on for you, but if not, be the best Catholic you can be.

You also say that I “displayed outright hatred.” Excuse me?? Nothing could be further from the truth! I happen to love ALL of my brothers and sisters in the Lord regardless of denominational affiliation. Many of my good friends happen to be Catholic—and that is no barrier in our fellowship. They understand where I am coming from and I understand where they are coming from—and we agree to disagree. This does nothing to effect the genuineness in our relationship. It’s unfortunate that you want to divide just because you cannot answer biblical responses to Catholic rhetoric. It’s up to you, but I would like to be friends with you and ANY other Catholic reading this right now if they so choose to consider me their brother in the Lord. If not, then that is your decision.

 

[Poor_Clare_tobe]

Narrow!

[text edited to stay on point… for reply]

I have engaged with Protestants on these forums who can discuss and exchange without insulting and displaying outright hatred. Oh there have been a couple like you for sure.

This thread was started by a nun with a devotion to our Heavenly Mother Mary. Others who share her devotion exchanged prayers and comments and suddenly you came on the scene with your vitriolic, spiteful and ugly rantings. You said things that were offensive and hurtful to those who love Mary.

We are entitled to our beliefs so what was your purpose? What did you want to achieve? I do not believe that your intentions were to engage in serious exchange. You were there to make mischief and upset others.

You have derailed the thread completely. You should not be here.

*Cinette,

Thank You for your response. it was timely and reinforced  what I was thinking. I have seen this happen often on these threads where someone derails the discussion to no good purpose. There are certainly other places where any poster can post a question and begin a thread of their own. To derail a thread when it is Catholics speaking to other Catholics regarding their beliefs is just in poor taste.

There are certainly other more appropriate places to ask the question rather than picking an argument here.

If I had really wished to have an answer to the original question I might have posted it in:
Apologetic’s

Non Catholic Religions

Anyway blessings of peace and all good!
*

 

[Cinette]

Since you have completely ignored my response and shifted topics, does this mean I can respond to you off topic? First, the administrators of this site assured me that I was indeed welcome to make posts as a Protestant. I have no objection to you making posts as a Protestant whatsoever. I have not personally attacked ANYONE. Your remarks regarding our Lady are offensive to say the least. What was apparently considered offensive and hurtful came DIRECTLY FROM SCRIPTURE.No Narrow - it is your INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE THAT IS OFFENSIVE!!! This fact should tell you something. ALL of my responses use Scripture to defend my positions. This is why I already mentioned that my motive or goal was to engage in theological dialogue in order to get to the Truth. LOL :nope: In fact, I purposely did not respond to those who did not respond to me—most likely the nun (and her friends). That is fine with me if she chooses to believe Marian dogma. The topic of the Thread is “Devotion to Mary” and it is the right of Catholics to express their devotion to our Heavenly Mother without having you come on board with your terrible comments - "Mary is merely a dead sinner - or something to that effect. And, if the Holy Spirit cannot convince her otherwise, who can? In any event, it is not my goal in life to change her mind—or anyone’s—unless the Spirit illumines the Truth of Scripture to them. Keep in mind that what you call “vitriolic, spiteful and ugly rantings” come directly from the Word of God. Don’t blame God for your distorted interpretation! Perhaps the light bulb will go on for you, but if not, be the best Catholic you can be.

You also say that I “displayed outright hatred.” Excuse me?? Nothing could be further from the truth! So you display love for your brothers and sisters in Christ here on this thread by not showing respect for the Mother of Jesus and saying such awful things? I happen to love ALL of my brothers and sisters in the Lord regardless of denominational affiliation. The Catholic Church is not a denomination! Many of my good friends happen to be Catholic—and that is no barrier in our fellowship. They understand where I am coming from and I understand where they are coming from—and we agree to disagree. This does nothing to effect You mean AFFECT of course! the genuineness in our relationship. It’s unfortunate that you want to divide just because you cannot answer biblical responses to Catholic rhetoric. It’s up to you, but I would like to be friends with you try harder - think!and ANY other Catholic reading this right now if they so choose to consider me their brother in the Lord. If not, then that is your decision.

The aim of argument is differing in order to agree,
the failure of argument is when you agree to differ

G K CHESTERTON

 

[joe370]

Narrow path you said:

Once again, you are missing the point. The division in Protestant churches (at least the division actually worth dividing over) is in SECONDARY, NON-SALVIVIC issues. Hence, there is no division in essential doctrine officially. But do you know why this does not even matter to me? Because as I mention over and over, it WILL NOT MATTER what denomination (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox) we label ourselves with. You seem to think that it DOES matter. Why? The division in the RCC among its members is so abundant and diverse, why do you kid yourself that there is some sort of unity? A doctrinal statement does not equal unity UNLESS ALL the members of the church ACTUALLY KNOW AND BELIEVE it in their hearts. Once everyone who associates themselves under the Catholic banner believes ALL of the doctrines Rome teaches, THEN there will be unity. But of course, that will not happen. The unity spoken of in Scripture deals with the unity individuals share IN CHRIST. If you KNOW Christ, then you are my brother, and we have UNITY IN HIM. That is the only unity possible on this side of heaven. Your insistence on membership to a hierarchal institution is unimpressive and meaningless in the final analysis.

**One more time, there is no division in the C.C. because Catholics take disputes to the church as per the bible. Please illustrate said division in the C.C. So, if the division in the protestant world isn’t important, then it really doesn’t matter which protestant I choose; is that what your saying my friend? **

 

[Cinette]

Hi Cinette, you say over two posts:

"God is our Father
Jesus is His Son – therefore he is our brother
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and since Jesus is God the Son she is our Mother also

…

You are so unfamiliar with Scripture, I am not sure whether to laugh or cry. But first let me say, my intentions here are not to insult, but rather to engage others in biblical dialogue so Truth can be revealed. I noticed you were insulted at me when I called Mary a dead sinner. Check out Luke 1:47 and Luke 2:22-24. In Luke 1, she expressed the God was her Savior—and only sinners need a Savior. Luke 2 presents Mary offering a sin offering to the Jewish priest arising out of her state of sin. Your problem does not lie with me—but with the Word of God. Further, when Christ calls His mother “woman”, this was a very uncustomary thing for a Jewish boy to do. Most Jewish scholars see this as an outright sign of disrespect—but not all. The point is clear: Jesus had a mission to carry out, and Mary was just a small piece of the puzzle who sometimes got in the way. So whether your French language supports the idea of calling your mother “woman” or not, in Jewish culture, this was extremely uncustomary—and that is the point.

Yes, Christ told John, “behold, your mother” at the foot of the cross. But what does this mean? The answer is clear: Christ said, “While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (Mat. 12:46-50) This does not give me the impression that Christ gave special treatment to his mother….nor does it imply that Mary is the “mother of us all”……just the opposite is true.

…

Narrow!!!

Regarding calling His Mother Woman, - your judgment of Jesus is flawed when you say that calling a person “Woman” is “an outright sign of disrespect—but not all” So - Jesus is dying on the cross and looks down on his Mother and displays “an outright sign of disrespect”.:bigyikes::bigyikes:

Imagine that! Jesus showing “signs of disrespect” towards his Mother while he is dying on the cross!!! You could not be more outrageous!!! You blow me away!!!

Narrow - WHO are you?

 

[joe370]

To address your unsubstantiated claims, let me just say this: co-mediatrix is an utterly futile concept.

Well if it’s futile I won’t bring it up again!

You say it is a “no-brainer” but I wonder what must have happened to your brain to make this a “no-brainer.”

**No need for insults my friend.

**
First, where in Scripture do you get the idea that Mary is capable of praying for us? Keep in mind, when you “ask her” to pray for you, the very act of asking is communication—prayer. So, you are praying to the dead—someone that does not know you exist.

I did not realize that you believe that God is the God of the dead not of the living. You don’t believe that people are in heaven as we speak? That ends our debate!!!

The bottom line is that Mary CANNOT HELP ANYONE. She is a redeemed sinner, probably in heaven.

Narrow, you just got done saying: you are praying to the dead—someone that does not know you exist.

Her role as mediatrix is fatally flawed when compared to passages like 1 Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” Calling her a queen may give you a warm and fuzzy feeling inside, but it sure does not change the objective truth of Scripture.

**You mean subjective truth. Jesus is my one and only mediator; only Jesus can respond to my prayers. I happen to believe in intercessory prayer…that Mary and the saints in heaven can hear our prayers just as you can hear me if I ask you to pray for me. They share in Gods infinite glory! I believe that there are no limitations for our lost loved ones once they are one with God in heaven; you don’t and I respect your position. As per the bible, if Jesus is King then Mary is queen. **

 

[joe370]

Apparently, Joe you like to argue in a circle, just as you did in our last encounter.

**Not true; you bailed without answering my question. You basically said: I’m right and you are all wrong, without actually backing up your claims. **

To answer your question (once again), NO church is FULLY and PROPERLY obeying the Word of God because churches are full of imperfect people.

Yes, Jesus’ church is full of imperfect people just as the Apostles were sinful, fallible and imperfect people, but you still trust that they gave you the infallible word of God -right? Something is not adding up here! How do you know that they or their successors or their successors didn’t botch the job? After all they were all imperfect people??? I thought the Holy Spirit was/is guiding Jesus’ church into all truth regarding all that He taught, as per your bible? Imperfect church leaders are being guided by the Perfect Spirit of Truth in perpetuity. Yes or no?

And because there are no perfect churches, ALL have some doctrinal error in them–including mine.

**
So, the spirit of truth is incapable of steering Jesus’ one church away from doctrinal errors? I guess some things are in fact impossible for God, if you are right? Jesus said:

“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.”

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever.”

According to your bible, the Holy Spirit is teaching and guiding Jesus’ one church forever!

**

This is why it simply will not matter what church we belong to in the end–what matters is if we KNOW the Savior who died in our place. It has NOTHING to do with so-called “authority” of a hierarchical institution whose history should be embarrassing to anyone who is familiar with it.

**We all know that the devil would never attempt to bring down the individuals of Jesus’ established church. I will not take that road; I could and expose the horrible things that protestant churches did, but I am well aware that evil is active and real, and the anti-Christ’s hates all churches! Paul said: For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee…Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers…These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work Titus 1

Clearly Jesus’ one church was magisterial. Her ministers were charged with all authority to teach all that Jesus commanded. Paul clearly understood the necessity for church ministers/teachers in every church, after his demise, and if the Apostles selected successors, then it only stands to reason that their successors would do the same, because Jesus’ ministry was to last until His return. The Apostles , are to be Jesus’ witnesses to the ends of the earth, and this is only possible with successors! Paul was well aware of the potential for subversion in Jesus’ One church, if not for these presbyters and their successors:

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake…
**

 

[joe370]

You have been told the Catholic lie and bought it–I have chosen not to buy it. How scary it is to know that the very so-called establishment of the RCC is based on only a few passages–one in particular–whose interpretation is suspect. If Christ actually established the RCC, we would find this fact reiterated over and over again throughout the pages of Scripture–but instead we find evidence to the contrary.

**If Christ actually established the P.C.‘s, in the 16th century, we would find this fact reiterated over and over again throughout the pages of Scripture–but instead we find evidence to the contrary.You have been told (to which ever church you belong; you won’t reveal that little secret) - the lie and you have bought it. What does the bible tell us to do when we can’t resolve a dispute? See Matthew 18:17. I’ll ask one more time: please give me the name of Jesus’ established church circa 33 AD, for the 1st 1000 years of Christianity. Jesus said: the gates of hell will not prevail against His One church, and He only built one assembly and fervently prayed that she would remain one and united, just as the Father and Son are one; plenty will fall away, but she cannot be defeated, for she as the bride of Christ is being guided and taught by the H.S. FOREVER. If she cannot apostatize then why wouldn’t I belong TO JESUS’ ONE CHURCH? **

**Also, please show me where the bible says: the bible is all sufficient? Please show me where sola scriptura is taught in your bible. 2 Tim. 3 does not say anything about the sole sufficiency of the bible; the bible simply says: all scripture is inspired, not only scripture, and the bible does not provide a table of contents, as to which books were inspired as opposed to which books were not. The C.C. made those decisions, and it didn’t happen over night; it was a long drawn out process!

**
I fully acknowledge that the origin of the church I currently attend had a spirit-indwelt believer as its founder.

**Prove it using your sole rule of faith; if it’s not in the bible, it’s not to be believed.
**

However, I would much rather to have had a man to have founded my church than to be part of an institution that Christ never even established to begin with.

**You just declared that you are a more informed scholar than every protestant/catholic/secular scholar the world over. Not one of them denies that the C.C. is the church founded by Christ!

One more time: to which church do you belong? After all she as the bride of Christ was built by God in the first century, so you should be proud to say: I belong to the… **

This has resulted in the Scripture PLUS an “infallible interpreter” idea which has wreaked doctrinal havoc on the unsuspecting masses. Sad indeed.

 

[benedictus2]

Hello again benedictus2

Thanks for following my posts—you must like talking with me? Maybe not.

Correction. I was not following your posts but someone said you posted another erroneous interpretation on thread about Mary and would I care to comment. And I thought, yep I can certainly do a quick fly by post.

And since you exited so hastily from the other discussion I thought… hmmm why not. And really you are fun to debate with.

But let me provide some substance to your Catholic indoctrination. After Mary tells the people, “Do what He tells you”, you take this to mean that “Mary was confident His Son will listen to her.” I let my 12-year old read this statement, and she laughed saying that it “made no sense.” I did not have to tell her anything. So, even a 12-year old can use a little common sense!

You expect a 12 year old to do an exegesis on the Bible and that is supposed to be authoritative?!!! I rest my case.

(minus the Catholic indoctrination) Of course, Mary was being obedient as she normally was, but her statement does not say nor imply that because of the fact that she backed off when Jesus put her in check that this now means it was because of HER backing off (or shutting up) that God now decided to perform His first miracle!

Just so we are clear what Gospel we are talking about here it is verse by verse.
3 When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
4 (And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6 Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons.
7 Jesus told them, “Fill the jars with water.” So they filled them to the brim.

Notice. From verse 4 to verse 5 there is no sign of Mary backing off. There was no sign of her being “obedient” to what Jesus said. As a matter of fact if as you said she was just being obedient, verse 5 would have read something like" Sorry, I apologize it is not my place.

BUT, that is NOT how verse 5 goes. Straight after the “seeming” rebuke she just tells them do what He tells you. She was infact telling the servants to be obedient to Jesus. She knew Jesus will perform the miracle at her pleading. There was no backing off or shutting up. Instead she spoke up, she said "Do what he tells you."

It is NOT because she backed off that God performed His first miracle, IT WAS BECAUSE SHE SPOKE UP.

Jesus was at the party but He did not initiate this. Why? Because He knew His mother would do so. He reads hearts and He wanted the gospel to play out the way it did so that we will know that His mother has influence with him.

So, we should all be thanking Mary for moving God in such a way that He turned water into wine because had she not done that, He would not have??

As I said above, He did not want to do so at the beginning hence His question on verse 4. Is that verse something you do not have in your abridged version of the Bible?

Yikes! Then, you mention her ability for intercession—where is this ability found in Scripture?

My goodness you really are blind. How about verse 3 above?

When does Jesus give this to her?

How about by giving in to her request in verse 7?

 

[benedictus2]

Further, you’re right—I don’t consider her my mother in any sense because, for starters, she does not even know I exist.

Yes she does. And there is a major apology coming when you get to heaven Actually before that. You will come to truly know her before you leave this world.

She was an obedient, redeemed sinner who is more than likely in the presence of Christ this moment (just as all believers are).
Hallelujah!! I knew you would come up with something true (or close to is anyway) someday and I was right .
Yes she is obedient, yes she was redeemed but hey darling, she is the Mother of God. Think about that. She is not your ordinary “saved” individual because God the Father Himself chose her to be Mother to His Son.
But more than that, she was full of grace. I doubt that in your limited theological understanding you can even grasp what that means.

There is not a shred of biblical evidence that she has ANY of these abilities or characteristics that you speak of.

Yes there is refer to my post above.

Once again, you have no Scripture with your reply.

Yes I do. I cited them above.

What else is new?

Well for one thing you came up something quite close to the truth. That is new.

In conclusion, there is no precedent to give thanks to someone who has died long ago and does not even know you exist. Sure, I appreciate what she did long ago, but praise and worship is over the top—and unbiblical.

As I said above, there’s a major apology due from you. Mark my words.
That’s okay. Take your time. Much more learned men than you have finally come around to the truth. But I do understand that it takes time so that is okay.

 

[SienaFriend]

Mary has followed me all my life I can see now. I really saw her (not a vision) in 2000 when I was sick and an oil cloth of my moms that had traveled with me since I was 18 when she past away packed in a trunk. My daughters came in and I was laying down and in living room, and they said, “Look She looks PERFECT there, the PERFECT place for her” They hung her up over the mantle firplace, and it all started for me then. Her school, I guess, all I knew was to try and pray the rosary. I am devoted to her in praying the rosary (alot),my kids call my car “The Rosary Roadster” She taught me to pray,pray,pray and in doing that…I looked at Jesus more and more, in contemplation I trusted myself to her. I felt safe with her. Then it just grew and grew and I guess The Holy Spirit and she led me to books,prayer group, oh and before all the mass. First I when I looked at Jesus, it would be the image of Him at the rock in the garden. It took me a long time to feel close to Him. I knew there was a God just from looking at nature etc.and as Father (cradle catholic) and The Holy Spirit by the mystical experiences and unexplainable events I believed that happened. Jesus was harder for me, couldn’t relate to Him as a brother he seemed more, not a father, and embarrased to have “personal conversations”, but I always believed in the real presence and his suffering for us and His resurection. I think I stood more in awe and wonder. It took me a little longer to have intimate conversations. I then liked to see Him laying down, relaxing and that helped me to realize He was listening to me. Now I see them both with me more and more. Still baby steps, but at least walking I guess. I just feel like she is my lawyer of sorts or representative, and I trust her more than anyone to that…
Sorry for writing so lengthy a post

 

[SienaFriend]

:blush:WHOOPS? I’m new at CA and I was posting to the question about our devotion to Mary and well…I told myself, don’t read all the post first just do yours then read…YIKES…I hope I posted on right thread…I barely scanned over and it seems different than I expected…so if I posted on wrong thread, well please excuse me. I’m just a flake flopping around here so well…you might just as well get used to it, I will likely do it alot

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

My dear friends
i won’t read all but I see the anti- Mary brigade is out and about. i will make the observation that all the best christians that have lived in the past 2,000 yrs all had a great love and devotion for Her. there are many christians of various denominations who don’t and they seem to really lack genuine holiness. They may not know this but if you compare the best all faiths have to offer you can clearly see this. The reason, partly, is that some christians deprive themselves of so much grace by ignoring, or even worse despising, the Mediatrix of all Grace - the Blesse Virgin. If you want to achieve the goal of beoming like Christ you simply cannot achieve it without Her help. it’s as simple as that. I’m not intending to offend anyone and have not named anyone or anything, but the fastest road to sanctity is devotion to Mary.
Jesus loves Her and so should we.

God bless all
John

 

[SienaFriend]

Mary has followed me all my life I can see now. I really saw her (not a vision) in 2000 when I was sick and an oil cloth of my moms that had traveled with me since I was 18 when she past away packed in a trunk. My daughters came in and I was laying down and in living room, and they said, “Look She looks PERFECT there, the PERFECT place for her” They hung her up over the mantle firplace, and it all started for me then. Her school, I guess, all I knew was to try and pray the rosary. I am devoted to her in praying the rosary (alot),my kids call my car “The Rosary Roadster” She taught me to pray,pray,pray and in doing that…I looked at Jesus more and more, in contemplation I trusted myself to her. I felt safe with her. Then it just grew and grew and I guess The Holy Spirit and she led me to books,prayer group, oh and before all the mass. First I when I looked at Jesus, it would be the image of Him at the rock in the garden. It took me a long time to feel close to Him. I knew there was a God just from looking at nature etc.and as Father (cradle catholic) and The Holy Spirit by the mystical experiences and unexplainable events I believed that happened. Jesus was harder for me, couldn’t relate to Him as a brother he seemed more, not a father, and embarrased to have “personal conversations”, but I always believed in the real presence and his suffering for us and His resurection. I think I stood more in awe and wonder. It took me a little longer to have intimate conversations. I then liked to see Him laying down, relaxing and that helped me to realize He was listening to me. Now I see them both with me more and more. Still baby steps, but at least walking I guess. I just feel like she is my lawyer of sorts or representative, and I trust her more than anyone to that…
Sorry if I posted twice, I am having a hard time navagating, and it’s not funny, it makes me feel really old…and I’m only 50

 

[SienaFriend]

Describe your relationship with Mary… Is there something you would want improved? How does your devotion to her improve your relationship with Jesus?

I often when praying the rosary at the mystery of the visitation, I remind her that she was a very strong, young Jewish girl and I need strength like her. At the mystery of finding Jesus in the Temple, I remember losing my son for about 20min and a truck with 2 long haired guys pulled in driveway and they just smiled and said he was out on the road (they were angels cause, I was out in sticks in Alaska and the road was quite aways out and he was only gone a short period). I didn’t even get to ask names etc. It all happened so fast. I often ask God to accept my presenting of my son and daughters now to Him as I didn’t know to do it when they were born etc.
But I keep asking Jesus to bring him home to Him and I empathize with the anxiety she had etc.
I really need to improve on my fasting. I am doing the Total Consecration again and hoping to improve again in that area and to be more actively charitable. Being littel, Im finally understanding that from reading My Sister, written by the sister of The Little Flower, it has helped me more than other books on St Teresa. The saints are my buddies and they all teach me about Mary’s benefits…it really is making TOTAL sense and more doable all the time, well able to at least remember to try and be little.
Immitating her also well try to in keeping things in my heart…pondering and not talking about everything, and Trusting God more is the best way, surrendering, it really helps with anxiety…so does meditating…alot. Jesus is very happy I can tell that I have been holding on to Mary. It’s like he doesn’t have to worry so much about me, I’m in between the two of them, but not hanging around his neck and getting nowhere, hard to explain, but He’s happy when we are paying attention to her and what she says and I know I will never be steered wrong. Everything through Mary and then you are headed in the right direction and Jesus is straight ahead in His Father’s House…waiting for me/us to go into His Father’s house too…holding the door wide open!

 

[benedictus2]

:blush:WHOOPS? I’m new at CA and I was posting to the question about our devotion to Mary and well…I told myself, don’t read all the post first just do yours then read…YIKES…I hope I posted on right thread…I barely scanned over and it seems different than I expected…so if I posted on wrong thread, well please excuse me. I’m just a flake flopping around here so well…you might just as well get used to it, I will likely do it alot

Welcome to CAF. We’re all sort of flakey every now and again, and flop around every now and again so you’re in good company.