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bear06
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This is all starting to remind me of the joke about the man trapped on his rooftop by a flood. “God save me!” he cried. A man with a log floated by and offered to help. The man said no and cried out to God for help again. Then a man in a row boat came by and offered him help. He turned this down to saying he was waiting for God to save him. Finally a helicopter came by and offered to save him. He refused this again saying he was waiting for God to help him. Finally as the water rose too high he asked God why he didn’t save him. God said, “What do you want? I sent you a log, rowboat and a helicopter!”It has to do with our relationship to Christ. It reveals the fact that Mary is not necessary. Just like there is physical healing there is spiritual healing and we do not need to approach Mary before approaching Christ. We can approach Christ Himself. We have an advocate in heaven and that is Christ. He has entered the Holy of Holies and continually intercedes for us.
Instead of of a log, rowboat and helicopter God has given us the Sacraments, Mary and the Saints!
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planter654
Guest
It is the Cardinal’s recent formulation, not God’s.I don’t know if anyone has yet put the Cardinal’s recent formulation on this issue.
Here it is for anyone interested:
With no disrespect to anyone but when someone says such things, are we saying we know God’s thoughts? May I ask when someone adds such claims against God"s word of truth could it be called a " blasphemous claim". Wanting others to go against the word of Jesus Christ our Lord and savior. Worship God!
When Jesus was crucified there were many woman there, yes including our Dear Mother Mary at the foot of the cross.
Could it not have meant also -----John this is your Mother, for we are all one in Love, who believe in God, take her home and take care of her as your Mother.
Christ said—
Woman this is your son—to John., meaning I myself am not only your son woman ( Jesus Christ)----, but also all who believe in me is your daughter, son and reversed the other way also for John, this is your sister, brother etc also.
I do find it interesting that Jesus called Blessed Mary— woman this is your mother---- Why not instead Mother----yet to John Jesus says this is your mother! Woman this is your son!
God makes no mistakes so I find it interesting don’t you think?
Woman when Jesus is speaking to Mary, but mother when he speaks to John this is your mother, Woman this is your son?
God Bless
J
jimmy
Guest
I don’t see these things in the way you see them. I don’t see the sacraments as a log that God throws us. The sacraments are our very relationship with the Church and with God. As St. Ephrem says baptism brings us into the new paradise. The Eucharist is the tree of life. Mary and the saints are not just some lifeline that God has thrown us. They are the Church in heaven. The creed says we believe in One Church and the apostles creed says we believe in the communion of the saints.This is all starting to remind me of the joke about the man trapped on his rooftop by a flood. “God save me!” he cried. A man with a log floated by and offered to help. The man said no and cried out to God for help again. Then a man in a row boat came by and offered him help. He turned this down to saying he was waiting for God to save him. Finally a helicopter came by and offered to save him. He refused this again saying he was waiting for God to help him. Finally as the water rose too high he asked God why he didn’t save him. God said, “What do you want? I sent you a log, rowboat and a helicopter!”
Instead of of a log, rowboat and helicopter God has given us the Sacraments, Mary and the Saints!
P
planter654
Guest
When St .Peter or was it St. Paul said, If anyone teaches the gospele other thank the gosples they were given in whom we also bare witness to, do not accept them. For the gospels that we preach is not myths made up from our human mind etc etc"I don’t even understand this post. Could you please rephrase? What is a human myth?
I am very sorry! What I have written above is not directily word for word from the Holy Bible. I am surprised Bear you do not know what “human myths” mean. Imagine, running away with “our own human imagination, adding to, going beyond what is written etc”
I find it interesting when someone reads, someones Book that they have written. Say 6 or 7 people read the authors book and then they all gather together with the author, it was on Oprah.I was amased how everyone thought something different in what the author meant and the book gave everyone something different message to take away with themselves from reading the book.
Turned out really no one got the author’s true thoughts right ------Funny I thought about the “Holy Bible”.
God Bless
N
nilofc
Guest
Actually you need to go deeper to understand that it is actually the teaching of the Catholic Church.See, it’s nonsensical statements such as this that cause so much trouble for Catholics in dealing with the rest of Christians and among the reasons they misunderstand us and accuse us of worshipping Mary.
One need not have a devotion to Mary, one need never pray the Hail Mary or any Marian prayer, one need never pray the rosary or even UTTER the name of Mary to be saved. As a Catholic I’m both offended and appalled at this statement which is NOT based on Church teaching.
"Extra Ecclesiam, Nulla Salus"
Outside the Church, there is no Salvation.
St. Ephrem:
The Virgin Mary is, again, the figure of the Church, which received the first-fruits of the Gospel. Mary saw Him, as representing the Church. . . . Let us call the Church by the name of Mary; for she is worthy of the double name.
St. Augustine:
The Woman signifies Mary, who, being spotless, brought forth our spotless Head. Who herself also showed forth in herself a figure of holy Church, so that as she in bringing forth a Son remained a Virgin, so the Church also should during the whole of time be bringing forth His members, and yet not lose her virgin estate.
Read on Isaiah 62:5.
“For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you…” - Don’t you find this amazing. Mary concludes a covenant of salvation by becoming Christ’s bride, a role usually assigned to the Church.
For if we don’t have devotion to Mother Mary, then we don’t have hope in the perfect work of God. For Mary, is the perfect work of God. To deny this is to deny the Immaculate Conception dogma defined of the Catholic Church
N
nilofc
Guest
Going by your logic, are we suppose to believe in the Trinity too since the word Trinity is not found in the bible?The Bible does not teach that devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation. … See all biblical references to salvation and you will never see a mention of Mary as being in this process of salvation. Not one reference.
Protestants needs to really see that Sola Scriptura is really anti-scriptural, since the Bible itself says that not everything is in the Bible.
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nilofc
Guest
Show me a church document that says this.More importantly, the Church does not teach that devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation.
J
jimmy
Guest
Where is the St. Ephrem quote from. Where did Ephrem say it? I don’t trust it because westerners tend to completely distort St. Ephrem. Actually Christ is the perfect work of God. Christ is the God-man. An infinitely more perfect being than Mary will every be. We don’t need a devotion to Mary. We need a devotion to Christ. Christ is our hope.Actually you need to go deeper to understand that it is actually the teaching of the Catholic Church.
"Extra Ecclesiam, Nulla Salus"
Outside the Church, there is no Salvation.
St. Ephrem:
The Virgin Mary is, again, the figure of the Church, which received the first-fruits of the Gospel. Mary saw Him, as representing the Church. . . . Let us call the Church by the name of Mary; for she is worthy of the double name.
St. Augustine:
The Woman signifies Mary, who, being spotless, brought forth our spotless Head. Who herself also showed forth in herself a figure of holy Church, so that as she in bringing forth a Son remained a Virgin, so the Church also should during the whole of time be bringing forth His members, and yet not lose her virgin estate.
Read on Isaiah 62:5.
“For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you…” - Don’t you find this amazing. Mary concludes a covenant of salvation by becoming Christ’s bride, a role usually assigned to the Church.
For if we don’t have devotion to Mother Mary, then we don’t have hope in the perfect work of God. For Mary, is the perfect work of God. To deny this is to deny the Immaculate Conception dogma defined of the Catholic Church
N
nilofc
Guest
Where is the St. Ephrem quote from. Where did Ephrem say it? I don’t trust it because westerners tend to completely distort St. Ephrem. Actually Christ is the perfect work of God. Christ is the God-man. An infinitely more perfect being than Mary will every be. We don’t need a devotion to Mary. We need a devotion to Christ. Christ is our hope.
You deny the Mary is sinless?Where is the St. Ephrem quote from. Where did Ephrem say it? I don’t trust it because westerners tend to completely distort St. Ephrem. Actually Christ is the perfect work of God. Christ is the God-man. An infinitely more perfect being than Mary will every be. We don’t need a devotion to Mary. We need a devotion to Christ. Christ is our hope.
One more thing, the second person of the Most Holy Trinity is begotten not made. He was not worked on upon by the Father so that Jesus will be produced. Jesus is not a creature of anybody. To say that is a heresy.
Don’t you know that the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father?
You might want to rephrase your statement to “The perfect work of God is manifested in the works of Jesus.” though that will not provide any sense to your statements.
catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/1998-01-02/mary.html
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nilofc
Guest
How does Mary cooperate in the divine plan of salvation?
By the grace of God Mary was kept free from every personal sin her whole life long. She is the one who is “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), “the all holy”. When the angel announced to her that she would give birth to “the Son of the Most High” (Luke 1:32), she freely gave her consent with “the obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5).** Mary thus gave herself entirely to the person and work of her Son Jesus, espousing wholeheartedly the divine will regarding salvation.**
To deny Mary, is to deny the she espoused the divine will regarding salvation.
If you need a quote… here.
vatican.va document
By the grace of God Mary was kept free from every personal sin her whole life long. She is the one who is “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), “the all holy”. When the angel announced to her that she would give birth to “the Son of the Most High” (Luke 1:32), she freely gave her consent with “the obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5).** Mary thus gave herself entirely to the person and work of her Son Jesus, espousing wholeheartedly the divine will regarding salvation.**
To deny Mary, is to deny the she espoused the divine will regarding salvation.
If you need a quote… here.
vatican.va document
J
jimmy
Guest
Where did I say that? I simply said I don’t trust westerners to quote the Syrian fathers because they distort what they say. For example, the west will quote St. Ephrem as supporting the Immaculate Conception but the fact is that St. Ephrem and the other great Syriac Fathers like St. James of Sarug believed that Mary was purified at the Annunciation. They contrast the Word of God entering the ear of Mary through the angel with the word of Satan entering the ear of Eve through the snake. Mary was purified when the Word was concieved whereas Eve was defiled when Satan’s word was concieved in her.You deny the Mary is sinless?
Jesus Christ is God and man united. The fact that the Son is eternal is irrelevant. The God man is not eternal and is a work of God. I won’t say that Jesus Christ was created because He wasn’t but the fact is the Incarnation is a work of God. It is not from all eternity. The Incarnation is the greatest work of God. God became man and united divinity with humanity. And as a result man can be united with divinity.One more thing, the second person of the Most Holy Trinity is begotten not made. He was not worked on upon by the Father so that Jesus will be produced. Jesus is not a creature of anybody. To say that is a heresy.
Yes, the Father is in Jesus.Don’t you know that the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father?
No, I don’t. I am refering to the Incarnation, not to Jesus’ works.You might want to rephrase your statement to “The perfect work of God is manifested in the works of Jesus.” though that will not provide any sense to your statements.
P
planter654
Guest
After Mary gave birth to Jesus did she not have any other children is that not also in question?Actually you need to go deeper to understand that it is actually the teaching of the Catholic Church.
"Extra Ecclesiam, Nulla Salus"
Outside the Church, there is no Salvation.
St. Ephrem:
The Virgin Mary is, again, the figure of the Church, which received the first-fruits of the Gospel. Mary saw Him, as representing the Church. . . . Let us call the Church by the name of Mary; for she is worthy of the double name.
St. Augustine:
The Woman signifies Mary, who, being spotless, brought forth our spotless Head. Who herself also showed forth in herself a figure of holy Church, so that as she in bringing forth a Son remained a Virgin, so the Church also should during the whole of time be bringing forth His members, and yet not lose her virgin estate.
Read on Isaiah 62:5.
“For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you…” - Don’t you find this amazing. Mary concludes a covenant of salvation by becoming Christ’s bride, a role usually assigned to the Church.
For if we don’t have devotion to Mother Mary, then we don’t have hope in the perfect work of God. For Mary, is the perfect work of God. To deny this is to deny the Immaculate Conception dogma defined of the Catholic Church
God Bless
J
jimmy
Guest
Your conclusion is false. First of all, I am not denying Mary. What I deny is that Mary is the mediatrix of all grace so that we must go through Mary to get to Christ. It is purely false. This is not the doctrine of the early church. It is an idea of the last few centuries. Secondly, to deny that Mary was immaculately concieved is not the same thing as denying that she espoused the divine will regarding salvation.How does Mary cooperate in the divine plan of salvation?
By the grace of God Mary was kept free from every personal sin her whole life long. She is the one who is “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), “the all holy”. When the angel announced to her that she would give birth to “the Son of the Most High” (Luke 1:32), she freely gave her consent with “the obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5).** Mary thus gave herself entirely to the person and work of her Son Jesus, espousing wholeheartedly the divine will regarding salvation.**
To deny Mary, is to deny the she espoused the divine will regarding salvation.
If you need a quote… here.
vatican.va document
F
Formosus
Guest
I agree with Jimmy on the Ephrem quote. That is not really taken in the context of everything Ephrem wrote.
Likewise some of you have suggested a private Marian devotion is required for Salvation, I would like to propose a private devotion to Abraham is neccessary for Salvation because without Abraham agreeing to God’s will, Christ would not have been born in the same way as He was.
To say Marian devotion is neccessary for Salvation, is to in essence say all the Saints are necessary for salvation because they are part of the communion of saints which is a matter of Dogma. There is no evidence from the Early Church to support Mary, Mediatrix of Graces nor the idea of “co-redemptrix”. The other Marian dogmas are all based in early Church teachings, yet the best one can come up with for these supposed “5th marian dogmas” is a St. Bonaventure quote from the 13th century. I love the Franciscans and their spirituality but to say they were not a little over zealous for Mary would be to ignore the historical reality. There is nothing wrong with having a great zeal and devotion to Mary , I myself am consecreted to her, but to suggest that is neccessary for salvation is absurd and it lessens the dignity of the Christ.
Likewise some of you have suggested a private Marian devotion is required for Salvation, I would like to propose a private devotion to Abraham is neccessary for Salvation because without Abraham agreeing to God’s will, Christ would not have been born in the same way as He was.
To say Marian devotion is neccessary for Salvation, is to in essence say all the Saints are necessary for salvation because they are part of the communion of saints which is a matter of Dogma. There is no evidence from the Early Church to support Mary, Mediatrix of Graces nor the idea of “co-redemptrix”. The other Marian dogmas are all based in early Church teachings, yet the best one can come up with for these supposed “5th marian dogmas” is a St. Bonaventure quote from the 13th century. I love the Franciscans and their spirituality but to say they were not a little over zealous for Mary would be to ignore the historical reality. There is nothing wrong with having a great zeal and devotion to Mary , I myself am consecreted to her, but to suggest that is neccessary for salvation is absurd and it lessens the dignity of the Christ.
N
nilofc
Guest
Inversely, show me a Church document where it says that Mary is not needed and I’ll show you quotes from Popes and Saints to disprove your argument against Mary.I am negative about inappropriate comments regarding her or any of the saints - especially when those that make out that all else is inferior or that a personal devotion to her or any other saint is required.
If the Church does not teach it as required who has the authority to say the Church is wrong?
I’ll ask you the question you asked…
Who has the authority to say the Church is wrong?
P
planter654
Guest
Only God can make us Holy! Trust in God—Worship GodYour conclusion is false. First of all, I am not denying Mary. What I deny is that Mary is the mediatrix of all grace so that we must go through Mary to get to Christ. It is purely false. This is not the doctrine of the early church. It is an idea of the last few centuries. Secondly, to deny that Mary was immaculately concieved is not the same thing as denying that she espoused the divine will regarding salvation.
God Bless
N
nilofc
Guest
Well, it was the Church who gave us the Bible. And the foundation and the bulwark of the truth is the Church (1 Tim 3:15). I wonder why some Catholics feels that the teachings of the Church does not contain the fullness of the truth.… There is no evidence from the Early Church to support Mary, Mediatrix of Graces nor the idea of “co-redemptrix”. The other Marian dogmas are all based in early Church teachings…
Mary does not lessen the dignity of Christ. In fact to honor Mary is to honor the perfect work of God. “My soul magnifies the Lord” as our Mother said… the more you honor and venerate Mary, the more you magnify the Lord.…
…is nothing wrong with having a great zeal and devotion to Mary , I myself am consecreted to her, but to suggest that is neccessary for salvation is absurd and it lessens the dignity of the Christ.
N
nilofc
Guest
True. We all believe this. But from whom do you think Mary gets the grace from?Only God can make us Holy! Trust in God—Worship God
God Bless
F
Formosus
Guest
Well why don’t you post some magisterial documents and not private writings of saints or popes. Not everything written by a Pope is magisterial, the Pope has to be writing according the teaching authority of the papal office.Inversely, show me a Church document where it says that Mary is not needed and I’ll show you quotes from Popes and Saints to disprove your argument against Mary.
I’ll ask you the question you asked…
Who has the authority to say the Church is wrong?
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