Devotion To Our Lady Is Necessary For Salvation

[nilofc]

You said above that a document is not necessary to say that it is true.

Yes as long at the Church teaches it and it is in our Tradition.

Which is it? Either coredemptrix/mediatrix must be proved through church documents or it doesn’t matter whether there are church documents which prove it.

I know that you know that only when a controversy becomes a crisis of faith that the Church defines a dogma. While there are a lot of Church documents pertaining to Co-Redemptrix/Mediatrix has been provided by the Popes and saints, you simply refuse them since it doesn’t fit your theology. Now between you and the teaching of these popes, doctors of the church and saints, I prefer the latter.

I remember you saying that they were all wrong and you were right.

 

[nilofc]

I find it twisted to put another mediator between Christ and man and say we must go through that other mediator to get to Christ. It is not scriptural and you can’t find it in the fathers.

Then don’t ask anybody to pray for you or your intentions because you are asking them to mediate for you.

But of course, the catholic understanding of the communion of saints differs from yours.

I think you are mistakenly intechanging prayers and graces.

Grace…comes from God through Mary and to us.

Prayers - this goes through Mary or the saints to God or directly to God. But it is always better if we have someone to offer these prayers to God (James 5:16)

 

[nilofc]

No they don’t. Tradition is not established by a couple centuries of popes who have speculated on the issue. It is not a teaching of the Church.

False. This is actually Tradition and Popes do not merely speculate on matters of faith and morals. Do you really think that Traditions have to written down so you’d have to believe it too? These teachings of the saints, doctors of the church and Popes were never opposed by the Church itself. Why would they? Why would us?..and why do you?

Pope John Paul II said that Mary was “spiritually crucified with her crucified son” at Calvary, and “her role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son.”

If all that was meant by it was that through the woman came the savior that would be fine but what is being said is that our prayers must be through Mary and nothing goes to Christ except through Mary. The order has been reversed. Christ came to us through Mary and somehow you assume the reverse must be true.

When did I say that our prayers must through only through her ? I thought we were talking about grace? Completely different argument.

First of all, I don’t say what you are saying, I only deny your understanding of the communion of saints. Second of all, I find it twisted to put another mediator between Christ and man and say we must go through that other mediator to get to Christ. It is not scriptural and you can’t find it in the fathers.

What you deny is not my understanding of the communion of saints but the Church’s. Not only is the communion of saints found in the teaching of the early fathers, it is biblical also. Look at how prayers for the dead is essential in Maccabees.

 

[bear06]

Well why don’t you post some magisterial documents and not private writings of saints or popes. Not everything written by a Pope is magisterial, the Pope has to be writing according the teaching authority of the papal office.

Well you didn’t denote what you wanted in these documents but here are a bunch of them referring to the Mediatrix, Advocate, etc. teachings.
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm

 

[bear06]

Your conclusion is false. First of all, I am not denying Mary. What I deny is that Mary is the mediatrix of all grace so that we must go through Mary to get to Christ. It is purely false. This is not the doctrine of the early church. It is an idea of the last few centuries. Secondly, to deny that Mary was immaculately concieved is not the same thing as denying that she espoused the divine will regarding salvation.

It’s actually the development of doctrine and it’s really irrelevent whether it was 900, 200 or 2 years ago. The Church teaches this. You are in error to deny it. As the Catholic Encyclopedia explains, Marian devotion is the practical application of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. You, apparently, don’t see them as connected. The Church, on the other hand, does.

 

[GerardP]

I love how ultratraditionalists twist things and say things like, ‘what is with all the Mary bashers’. No one has bashed Mary. You are the one who has turned her into a god. You are the one who has introduced a second source of our salvation.

Jimmy,

I think you should take your low brow, hypocritical, non-Catholic comments off the site and do something useful.

Take some time instead, and crack open a Catholic book or two about what is actually taught about **She who’s soul Magnifies the Lord. **

The hubris one must have to sit there and state that traditionalists twist things and then in the very same post to lie about traditionalists with the worst, rancid, anti-Catholic modernist propaganda imaginable.

As Hebrews says, we have an advocate in heaven, Jesus Christ. It does not say Mary is our advocate, it says Jesus Christ. Christ is the way, the truth and the life, not Mary.

Who said it does? This is Protestant prooftexting on your part nothing more. We are not worthy of the promises of Christ.

The Church has taught about subordinate mediation. Learn it.

“Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.”

Mary was not involved in every exhortation for Christ to perform a miracle, in fact the only miracle which Christ performed which Mary was involved in was the wedding at Cana. So don’t tell me that Mary is necessary for salvation.

Don’t use unrelated examples to try and prove a point.

What do specific miracles have to do with salvation?

The healing of the lepers and the demoniacs and the woman with the hemmorage. The raising of the dead girl and Lazarus were not interceded by Mary. Christ tells us that what we ask Him He will give us. What we ask of the Father in His name He will give us. He doesn’t say, ask Mary and she will give it to you.

Blessed Mother please obtain grace for me to deal with these people!!!

First, how do you know Mary had no part in those miracles? Do you know the events beyond the Scriptures? Do you know the Scriptures so well that you can infallibly know where Mary is not mentioned or even alluded to?

Who do you think Our Lord was talking about as the model of “those who haven’t seen and still believed.” when he spoke to Thomas?

Who is the one the Angel Gabriel (Power of God) said, “the Lord IS WITH YOU.”

Who’s voice made John the Baptist leap for joy in the womb and was the vessel that sanctified him on the spot?

Who is the New Eve that is the helpmate to the New Adam?

Who is Wisdom playing before the Lord from before the beginning? The Immaculate Conception was in God’s mind from all Eternity.

Before his fall, Lucifer was the greatest and brightest of God’s Creations by his nature. Our Lady has been sanctified far above his level of brilliance.

Your arguments are nothing but a series of irrelevant Protestant attacks against the Blessed Mother’s role in Salvation History.

It’s jealousy ultimately, and there is only one thoroughly evil being who is the source of jealousy towards the Blessed Mother.

I feel an enormous swell of pity for the puffed-up liberal Catholics who have no idea of the gap that exists between Christ’s majesty and our sinful selves. And how He in His infinite grace has provided a bridge that can help us get to Him and from Him to the Father.

I have no doubt that the Church will proclaim the dogma for Our Lady and we will find ourselves under her protection and the Immaculate Heart will triumph. Because HE wills it.

A LITTLE LITANY
by G.K. Chesterton

*When God turned back eternity and was young,
Ancient of Days, grown little for your mirth
(As under the low arch the land is bright)
Peered through you, gate of heaven–and saw the earth.

Or shutting out his shining skies awhile
Built you about him for a house of gold
To see in pictured walls his storied world
Return upon him as a tale is told.

Or found his mirror there; the only glass
That would not break with that unbearable light
Till in a corner of the high dark house
God looked on God, as ghosts meet in the night.

Star of his morning; that unfallen star
In that strange starry overturn of space
When earth and sky changed places for an hour
And heaven looked upwards in a human face.

Or young on your strong knees and lifted up
Wisdom cried out, whose voice is in the street,
And more than twilight of twiformed cherubim
Made of his throne indeed a mercy-seat.

Or risen from play at your pale raiment’s hem
God, grown adventurous from all time’s repose,
Or your tall body climed the ivory tower
And kissed upon your mouth the mystic rose.*

 

[bear06]

I looked in Denzinngers, and out of the entire history of the Church you have two references . Both of them are encyclicals from the last 200 years. So they are only part of the Ordinary magisterium therefore not infallible teachings of the Church.

Uh, you might want to research what is infallible first. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

C. Mutual Relations of the Organs of Infallibility
A few brief remarks under this head will serve to make the Catholic conception of ecclesiastical infallibility still clearer. Three organs have been mentioned:

the bishops dispersed throughout the world in union with the Holy See;
ecumenical councils under the headship of the pope; and
the pope himself separately.
Through the first of these is exercised what theologians describe as the ordinarium magisterium, i.e. the common or everyday teaching authority of the Church;

 

[Formosus]

" For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer…"Lumen Gentium

It doesn’t say she is mediatrix of Graces and that is the strongest reference on the site you listed. All the others were either letters or Encyclicals. All of these references are part of the ordinary magisterium which are fallible. Mediatrix of Graces and Co redemptrix are nothing but theological opinions that are not Church teaching just like limbo.

 

[jimmy]

Jimmy,

I think you should take your low brow, hypocritical, non-Catholic comments off the site and do something useful.

Take some time instead, and crack open a Catholic book or two about what is actually taught about **She who’s soul Magnifies the Lord. **

The hubris one must have to sit there and state that traditionalists twist things and then in the very same post to lie about traditionalists with the worst, rancid, anti-Catholic modernist propaganda imaginable.

Yes, you twist peoples words. You accused us of “Mary bashing” because we disagree with you on the mediatrix of all graces. Talkin about hubris? Maybe you should examine yourself.

When did I say that our prayers must through only through her ? I thought we were talking about grace? Completely different argument.

That is the point of the thread. The point is that all prayer must go through Mary before it can go to Christ. Read GerardP’s posts. He has specifically said himself that God does not deal with sinners so we have to go to Mary and then Mary intercedes.

 

[nilofc]

Theological Opinion???

Between the Theological Opinion of several popes, doctors of the
church and canonized saints, the likes of St. Louis De mOntfort, St. Maximiliam Kolbe, St. John Eudes, St. Bernard, St. Lawrence of Brindisi, St. John Bosco,St. Gregory Nazianzen, St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori, St. Lomman, St. Germanus of Constantinople, St. Anselm, St. Ignatius of Constantinopl, St. Cyprian, etc.

vs.
and yours…hmmm… you’d probably know where I would place my bet on. Peace Bro.

 

[jimmy]

Don’t use unrelated examples to try and prove a point.

What do specific miracles have to do with salvation?

None of it is unrelated. The fact is that your assertion that God does not deal with sinners or hear their prayers is contrary to scripture and that is exactly what these events of scripture show.

First, how do you know Mary had no part in those miracles? Do you know the events beyond the Scriptures? Do you know the Scriptures so well that you can infallibly know where Mary is not mentioned or even alluded to?

If that is your position we can speculate about anything in scripture. All of scripture loses its foundation when you begin to speculate like this. The scripture says what it says and we must accept it as it is.

Who do you think Our Lord was talking about as the model of “those who haven’t seen and still believed.” when he spoke to Thomas?

Whoever hasn’t seen and has believed. He didn’t have a specific person in mind.

Who is the one the Angel Gabriel (Power of God) said, “the Lord IS WITH YOU.”

Who’s voice made John the Baptist leap for joy in the womb and was the vessel that sanctified him on the spot?

Who is the New Eve that is the helpmate to the New Adam?

I don’t see how any of this has to do with Mary being necesary for our salvation and the idea that Christ does not hear our prayers therefore we must go to Mary.

Before his fall, Lucifer was the greatest and brightest of God’s Creations by his nature. Our Lady has been sanctified far above his level of brilliance.

No arguement. As the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom says, more honorable than the Cherubim, more glorious than the Seraphim.

Your arguments are nothing but a series of irrelevant Protestant attacks against the Blessed Mother’s role in Salvation History. It’s jealousy ultimately, and there is only one thoroughly evil being who is the source of jealousy towards the Blessed Mother.

I feel an enormous swell of pity for the puffed-up liberal Catholics who have no idea of the gap that exists between Christ’s majesty and our sinful selves. And how He in His infinite grace has provided a bridge that can help us get to Him and from Him to the Father.

You need to get over yourself. This is exactly what I was talking about. You twist peoples words. You need to get rid of the accusatory attitude. You obviously can’t read hearts too well. How about you leave that to the only One who can search hearts.

I have no doubt that the Church will proclaim the dogma for Our Lady and we will find ourselves under her protection and the Immaculate Heart will triumph. Because HE wills it.

I doubt it.

 

[nilofc]

Here are some “theological opinions” of our brothers and sisters who are now in the company of our Lord in heaven. Opinions??? Wow.

All the true children of God, the predestinate, have God for their Father and Mary for their Mother. He who has not Mary for his Mother has not God for his Father. This is the reason that reprobates such as heretics, schismatics, and others, who hate Our Blessed Lady or who regard her with contempt and indifference, do not have God for their Father, however much they boast of it, simply because they do not have Mary for their Mother . . . The most infallible and indisputable sign by which we may distinguish a heretic, a man of bad doctrine, a reprobate, from one of the predestinate, is that the heretic and reprobate have nothing but contempt and indifference for Our Lady… The reprobate care next-to-nothing for devotion to Our Blessed Lady, the Mother of the predestinate . . . They do not consider devotion to her necessary for salvation. The means of salvation and sanctification are known by everyone: they are laid down in the Gospel, explained by the masters of the spiritual life, practiced by the Saints, and necessary to all who wish to be saved and to attain perfection. To practice all those means of salvation and sanctification, the grace of God is absolutely necessary . . . Whoever, therefore, wishes to be a member of Jesus Christ, full of grace and truth, must be formed in Mary by means of the grace of Jesus which she possesses in its fullness in order to communicate it fully to her children, the true members of Jesus Christ . . . These great souls, full of grace and zeal, shall be chosen to match themselves against the enemies of God . . . With the one hand, they shall fight, overthrow, and crush the heretics with their heresies, the schismatics with their schisms, the idolaters with their idolatries, and the sinners with their impieties. With the other hands, they shall build the temple of the true Solomon and the mystical City of God: that is to say, the Most Holy Virgin.

-St. Louis Marie de Montfort

If there should come among you anyone who would not honor Our Blessed Mother and who would cause any slackening in our union with her, or who would teach anything different: let him be condemned.

-St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

Not to wish to acknowledge the Mother of God is human pride, dictated by the Devil.

-St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

The Immaculata must be the Queen of all people. Whoever does not submit to her rule will perish.

**-St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe **

Take away Mary, the Star of the Sea, or take away the Heart of Mary, the true Sun of the Christian world, and what would be left?

-St. John Eudes

Take away the sun, and where will be the day? Take away Mary, and what will be left but the darkness of night? . . . Only through Mary, who has found grace and borne the Eternal Life and brought us salvation, can we attain true heavenly wisdom.

-St. Bernard

Without Mary’s radiance, nothing is left but enveloping darkness, the shadow of death, and the frightful night of the grave.

-St. John Eudes

Without Mary’s light, theology is in darkness, in heresy . . . The sign by which the sons of God are distinguished from the sons of the Devil, and the Church of God distinguished from the Synagogue of Satan, is true devotion to Mary.

-St. Lawrence of Brindisi

O faithful client of Mary will never fall into heresy.

**-St. Louis Marie de Montfort **

O Mary, Virgin Most Powerful, you alone have destroyed every heresy in the whole world!

-St. John Bosco

He who denies that Mary gave birth to God shall not see the glory of His Divinity.

-St. Ephrem

Whoever does not wish to have Mary Immaculate as his Mother will not have Christ as his Brother either; the Father will not send His Son to him; the Son will not descend into his soul; the Holy Spirit will not make him a member of the Mystical Body of Christ; for all these mysteries of grace take place in Mary Full-of-Grace, and in her alone . . . and since the First-Born Son, the Man-God, was conceived only through the specific consent of the Most Blessed Virgin, the same holds true for all other humans, who must imitate in all things their primary model: Christ.

-St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

This Child is God. How, then, shall she who bore Him not be God’s Mother? But if anyone refuses to acknowledge her as the Mother of God, such a one is far removed from the Godhead.

**-St. Gregory Nazianzen **

If anyone does not confess that the Emmanuel is in truth God, and that the Holy Virgin is Mother of God because she bore the Word of God according to the flesh when He became flesh: let him be anathema.

St. Cyril of Alexandria

O Mary, loving Mary, woe to them who shall raise themselves up against thee, to mock thee. He Who made thee and Who came forth from thee shall meet them like the bear robbed of her young. Woe to them on that day when He comes, for He guards thee as the apple of His eye!

-St. Lomman

Woe to him who neglects to recommend himself to Mary, and thus closes the channel of grace.

-St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

The salvation of those who are not protected by Mary is impossible.

-St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

He is lost who does not have recourse to Mary . . . If, then, we would be saved, let us recommend ourselves to her.

**-St. Alphonsos Maria Liguori **

 

[nilofc]

Who will be saved without thee, O Mary? Who can be free from dangers without thee? Who can obtain grace without thee? . . . There is no one who can be saved or redeemed but through thee, O Mother of God . . . No one is saved but by thee, no one delivered from evil but through thee, and through thee alone do all men receive the gifts and grace of God.

-St. Germanus of Constantinople

If Mary does not pray for us, we shall not obtain salvation . . . He alone is lost who does not recourse to thee, O Mary

-St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

It is impossible for those from whom Mary turns away her eyes of mercy to be saved.

-St. Antoninus

If anyone is disregarded and condemned by Mary, he is necessarily lost . . . It is impossible to be saved if we turn away from thee, O Mary.

**-St. Anselm **

It is impossible for any sinner to be saved without the help and favor of the Most Blessed Virgin.

**-St. Ignatius of Constantinople **

All men who are not thy servants, OMary, will perish.

**-St. Albert the Great **

The kingdom shall be closed to him who has deserted her who is destined to be its Queen.

**-St. Cyprian **

Your heart will either sing the Divine canticles of Our Lady . . . or it will echo the cursed and unhappy songs of the worldlings here [who] belong in dishonor to God its Maker, and vibrate eternally with the blasphemies and horrid dirges of the damned in Hell.

**- St. John Eudes **

Therefore, miserable will he be, says Our Queen, and miserable unto all eternity, who in this life, having it in his power to invoke me, is miserable enough not to invoke me and thus is damned.

**-St. Bridget of Sweden **

Those who do not serve Mary will not be saved, for those who are deprived of the help of this great Mother are deprived also of that of her Son and of the whole Court of Heaven.

**-St. John Damascene **

It is not possible for any sinner to be saved without the help of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

-St. John Chrysostom

It is impossible for persons who are not loved by the Mother of Christ to have any part with Him. Conversely, it is impossible for anyone to perish upon whom she looks with favor.

-St. John Eudes

The Rosary is one of the characteristics of the servants and children of the Mother of God. I am very much afraid that those who shall be overtaken by death without it may easily be disowned by her, and consequently rejected by her Son, as unworthy to share in the mercies of the Son or the favors of the Mother.

**-St. John Eudes **

Nothing can be more beneficial than the custom of those who salute Our Divine Lady.

-St. Thomas More

Since the work of salvation began with the Angelic Salutation, the salvation of each one of us in particular is attached to this prayer.

**-St. Dominic **

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

St. Luke 1:28, 42 and the Council of Ephesus:

The Most Blessed Trinity revealed the first part of the Hail Mary to us, and the latter part was added by St. Elizabeth, who was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Holy Mother Church gave us the conclusion in the year 430, when she condemned the Nestorian heresy at the Council of Ephesus and defined that the Blessed Virgin is truly the Mother of God. At this time, Holy Mother Church ordered us to pray to Our Lady under this glorious title by saying: “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.”

**-St. Louis Marie de Montfort **

We have to pray to the Madonna to drive away the Devil and all heresies, especially the Masons.

-St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

God will not save us without the intercession of Mary . . .
No one can be saved without the protection of Mary.

-St. Bonaventure

If people fail to say the Hail Mary, it is a sign that they will probably-----and indeed, shortly-----be condemned to eternal punishment.

**-Bl. Alan de la Roche **

The salvation of each individual is attached to the Hail Mary.

-St. John Capistrano

The heretics, all of whom are children of the Devil and clearly bear the sign of God’s reprobation, have a horror of the Hail Mary . . . I do not know, nor do I clearly see, how it can be that a devotion which seems so small can be the infallible sign of eternal salvation, and how its absence can be the sign of God’s eternal displeasure; nevertheless, nothing could possibly be more true . . . My Hail Mary . . . is the infallible touchstone by which I can tell those who are led by the Spirit of God from those who are deceived by the Devil. . . . Listen to what Our Lady has revealed: “Know, my son, and make all others know, that it is a probable and proximate sign of eternal damnation to have an aversion, a lukearmness, or a negligence in saying the Angelic Salutation which has repaired the whole world.” . . . The Hail Mary is a heavenly dew for watering the earth, which is the soul, to make it bring forth its fruit in season. A soul which is not watered by that prayer bears no fruit, and brings forth only thorns and brambles, and is ready to be cursed.

**-St. Louis Marie de Montfort **

That which bringeth forth thorns and briers is reprobate and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt.

**-Hebrews 6:8 **

 

[nilofc]

Those who opposes Mary to be necessary are those people who think Mary’s will is different from Christ.

I think it will be helpful for us to think that everything that Mary has, God gave and there is nothing in Mary that is opposed by God and in God. Same as the will of the saints in heaven is one with God.

Why is Mary necessary for Salvation? Because to deny Mary is to deny the perfect work of Christ.

Let me quote from St. Bonaventure:
"God will not save us without the intercession of Mary . . .
No one can be saved without the protection of Mary."

 

[jimmy]

What you deny is not my understanding of the communion of saints but the Church’s. Not only is the communion of saints found in the teaching of the early fathers, it is biblical also. Look at how prayers for the dead is essential in Maccabees.

This isn’t about prayers for the dead and prayers to the saints. That is irrelevant. I don’t have any problem with it. I pray to Mary and the other saints daily(Particularly St. James, St. Ephrem, and St. Jacob of Sarug anong others). The problem is that the idea in this thread is that Mary is placed between Christ and man and everything that goes to Christ and from Christ must pass through her. Her honor is not the point. The point is that the doctrine as postulated in this thread seperates Christ from man when Christ made Himself as close as possible to man. Christ said what you ask of Him He will give you(check John13-15). Christ does answer the prayers of sinners. In fact Christ died for us ‘while we were yet sinners.’

Do you think the exhortations of the sinners who were asking for physical healing doesn’t also apply to spiritual healing? It was spefically their sins that He forgave when healling them. He told the paralytic, ‘your sins are forgiven’ when he came to Christ. The paralytic wasn’t forced to go through a mediator to get to Christ.

 

[nilofc]

This isn’t about prayers for the dead and prayers to the saints. That is irrelevant. I don’t have any problem with it. I pray to Mary and the other saints daily(Particularly St. James, St. Ephrem, and St. Jacob of Sarug anong others). The problem is that the idea in this thread is that Mary is placed between Christ and man and everything that goes to Christ and from Christ must pass through her. Her honor is not the point. The point is that the doctrine as postulated in this thread seperates Christ from man when Christ made Himself as close as possible to man. Christ said what you ask of Him He will give you(check John13-15). Christ does answer the prayers of sinners. In fact Christ died for us ‘while we were yet sinners.’

Do you think the exhortations of the sinners who were asking for physical healing doesn’t also apply to spiritual healing? It was spefically their sins that He forgave when healling them. He told the paralytic, ‘your sins are forgiven’ when he came to Christ. The paralytic wasn’t forced to go through a mediator to get to Christ.

Actually, I know what your problem is… you find it hard to accept the church’s teaching on Subordinate Mediation.

 

[nilofc]

MARY’S MEDIATION DERIVES FROM CHRIST’S
Pope John Paul II

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm65.htm

This article will help.

Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
8 October 1997, page 11
L’Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.

 

[jimmy]

Actually, I know what your problem is… you find it hard to accept the church’s teaching on Subordinate Mediation.

I have no problem with subordinate mediation. If you read my post you should see that I have no problem with prayers to the saints. I have problems with mediatrix of all graces. I have problems with the idea that it is impossible to approach Christ without going through Mary.

 

[bear06]

You said above that a document is not necessary to say that it is true.

Which is it? Either coredemptrix/mediatrix must be proved through church documents or it doesn’t matter whether there are church documents which prove it.

I don’t really understand the debate here. It is taught in Church documents (several in fact). End of story.

 

[nilofc]

I have no problem with subordinate mediation. If you read my post you should see that I have no problem with prayers to the saints. I have problems with mediatrix of all graces. I have problems with the idea that it is impossible to approach Christ without going through Mary.

Of course you can approach God without Mary. You can pray directly to God.

The Mediatrix of all graces is the dispensation of graces FROM God to man passing through the hands of Mother Mary.