Devotion To Our Lady Is Necessary For Salvation

[nilofc]

Show me any Church document, any Church teaching, any Church doctrine that says we can separate the Blessed Mother from her Divine Son and then I’ll believe devotion to Our Lady isn’t necessary for salvation.

Do you worship Jesus? Then you have devotion to Our Lady.

Jesus and Mary cannot be separated from each other. When you honor Our Lady, you show the greatest honor to her Son.

Our Lady’s will is never opposed to the will of her Divine Son.

Very true.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Please read past posts on the numerous church teachings that were enumerated. We cannot repeat what has already been posted. We will all benefit knowing that the Church teaches this,

Please read the past posts.

I have read the posts and find NOTHING that the CHURCH teaches that says DEVOTION TO MARY IS NECESSARY for salvation.

“Intrinsic to worship” and “necessary for salvation” are two completely seperate issues.

 

[nilofc]

I have read the posts and find NOTHING that the CHURCH teaches that says DEVOTION TO MARY IS NECESSARY for salvation.

“Intrinsic to worship” and “necessary for salvation” are two completely seperate issues.

Please read past posts. A lot of people quoted a lot of Pope Encyclicals, Statements from the Doctors of the Church, Saints.

Don’t mind the “intrinsic” thing because we were talking on a side issue, it’s about devotion the Church teachings…you have to read past posts. Please don’t be confused.

 

[Schultzz]

“Jesus and Mary cannot be separated from each other.”

That is your opinion only. They are separate because Our Lady is not on the same level as Jesus.
She would have NO power if it were not given to her by God.
Queen of Heaven? Yes.
Wonderful Intercessor? Yes
Co- Redeemer? No.
She knows her place and doesn’t need you to try to change Her. Why are you trying to make Her a Goddess? You may have great devotion for Her. That’s good. But don’t read more into the truth than already exists.

 

[nilofc]

“Jesus and Mary cannot be separated from each other.”

That is your opinion only. They are separate because Our Lady is not on the same level as Jesus.
She would have NO power if it were not given to her by God.
Queen of Heaven? Yes.
Wonderful Intercessor? Yes
Co- Redeemer? No.
She knows her place and doesn’t need you to try to change Her. Why are you trying to make Her a Goddess? You may have great devotion for Her. That’s good. But don’t read more into the truth than already exists.

To make Mary a goddess is a heresy. Nobody in this forum is trying to make her one. You cannot just fire away without reading the past posts because all of your objections were already answered in the past posts.

Please put some time in reading past posts and you’d know that so many papal encyclicals has already defined this.

In all instances of Magisterial usage of the term, “Coredemptrix,” the prefix “co” does not mean equal to, but comes from the Latin word, “cum” which means “with.” The title of “Coredemptrix” applied to the Mother of Jesus never places Mary on a level of equality with Jesus Christ, the divine Lord of all, in the saving process of humanity’s redemption. Rather, it denotes Mary’s singular and unique sharing with her Son in the saving work of redemption for the human family. The Mother of Jesus participates in the redemptive work of her Saviour Son, who alone could reconcile humanity with the Father in his glorious divinity and humanity.

Here is a papal encyclical among the many:

“*From the nature of his work the Redeemer ought to have associated his Mother with his work. For this reason, we invoke her under the title of Co-redemptrix” (Pope Pius XI, 20th century); *

 

[Schultzz]

“Jesus and Mary cannot be separated from each other.”

What do you mean by this statement? How are they joined? I think you are reading more into this than is there. Devotion to Our Lady is NOT necessary for salvation. Advisable? Certainly. Necessary? No. I may not understand why you persist is this thinking but it hasn’t led to peace and unity on this site. Where is the fruit of your statements? Just because Saints said something does not mean that they are infallible. During their journey to Sainthood they made mistakes as you and I do. Devotion to our Lady is NOT necessary for salvation. Where do we disagree? I have a very devout filial love for the Blessed Mother. She has helped me more than any one except Her Son. She is the “Spouse” of the Holy Spirit. Yet your statement leads me to believe that you put Her on the same level with Jesus. I cannot accept that. Are we in agreement and just mincing words? Is this a matter of semantics and not a change in doctrinal thinking? Please tell me what YOU believe. Don’t send me packing to read the other posts. I have already read them.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Please read past posts. A lot of people quoted a lot of Pope Encyclicals, Statements from the Doctors of the Church, Saints.

Don’t mind the “intrinsic” thing because we were talking on a side issue, it’s about devotion the Church teachings…you have to read past posts. Please don’t be confused.

A statement by a saint or doctor of the Church is NOT a definitive teaching of the Church, a statement from a Pope in an encyclical is not, in and of itself, a definitive teaching of the church. Now, if someone wants to make the case that MARY is necessary for Salvation, then we can effectively make that argument just as we do that THE CHURCH is necessary for Salvation…but to state DEVOTION to Mary is necessary for salvation…well, that never has and never will be a doctrine of the Church.

 

[nilofc]

A statement by a saint or doctor of the Church is NOT a definitive teaching of the Church, a statement from a Pope in an encyclical is not, in and of itself, a definitive teaching of the church. Now, if someone wants to make the case that MARY is necessary for Salvation, then we can effectively make that argument just as we do that THE CHURCH is necessary for Salvation…but to state DEVOTION to Mary is necessary for salvation…well, that never has and never will be a doctrine of the Church.

Show me a church document that proves your point.

Between the countless statements from Saints, Popes, Councils and your opinion… well.

 

[rinnie]

Show me a church document that proves your point.

Between the countless statements from Saints, Popes, Councils and your opinion… well.

If i can butt in here what i really think the Post is trying to say is, It is not wrong to go to her, she is such a asset to the Church. The post has found so much Love and Peace from our Lady and just wants everyone to find that. IT is such a gift left from Jesus to us and to see people not accept that gift is hard to understand. I think if he wrote his Post Why dont people go to our Lady more for help with Salvation? That may have helped people to see much clearer what this post was about. At least thats what i think its about. But if im wrong, hey its happened before.

 

[nilofc]

If i can butt in here what i really think the Post is trying to say is, It is not wrong to go to her, she is such a asset to the Church. The post has found so much Love and Peace from our Lady and just wants everyone to find that. IT is such a gift left from Jesus to us and to see people not accept that gift is hard to understand. I think if he wrote his Post Why dont people go to our Lady more for help with Salvation? That may have helped people to see much clearer what this post was about. At least thats what i think its about. But if im wrong, hey its happened before.

For my part, all I am saying is… It may not be defined as a dogma yet (Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces, Advocate, Helper). But this is taught in the Catechism. So many theologians, saints and popes have taught the same. And there is no single church document that refutes this.

This is really a question of church traditions, papal encyclicals vs. personal opinion based on the logic of “Sola Scriptura”, that everything must be written down and everything must be explicitly defined as dogma in order for it to be worthy of belief.

All in done in humility. Peace Bro.

 

[rinnie]

For my part, all I am saying is… It may not be defined as a dogma yet (Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces, Advocate, Helper). But this is taught in the Catechism. So many theologians, saints and popes have taught the same. And there is no single church document that refutes this.

This is really a question of church traditions, papal encyclicals vs. personal opinion based on the logic of “Sola Scriptura”, that everything must be written down and everything must be explicitly defined as dogma in order for it to be worthy of belief.

All in done in humility. Peace Bro.

Oh okay im on that bus ride with you all the way.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I took the time to go back and reread every post.

The question is this: The statement in the title of this Post is,

DEVOTION to Our Lady is NECESSARY for Salvation (emphasis added).

After having REREAD this post not a single Papal Encyclical states that DEVOTION to Mary is necessary for salvation.

UNITAS,
You make the statement that the writing of some particular saint (St Louis) is part of the deposit of faith…the deposit of faith is defined as The source or fount of revealed truths, namely, Scripture and Tradition, which must be accepted by all true Christians on the authority of God. …SACRED TRADITION…that doesn’t include the writings of saints unless we’re talking about scriptures.

We have a spurious quote suppossedly belonging to Saint Ignatius, we have NOT ENCYCLICAL stating Devotion is Necessary for salvation.

Read the Baltimore Catechism or the CCC and you’ll find absolutely ZERO mention of DEVOTION to Mary being necessary to Salvation.

Once and for all, this is NOT a teaching of the Church…don’t take my word for it, write to your bishop or to the Vatican.

Mary is great, wonderful, etc…but a Devotion to her is NOT necessary for salvation.

I don’t care how much Saint Monifort or whomever else you want to quote (and most of these quotes are unsourced) the CHURCH does NOT TEACH Devotion to Mary is Necessary for Salvation.

 

[nilofc]

I took the time to go back and reread every post.

The question is this: The statement in the title of this Post is,

DEVOTION to Our Lady is NECESSARY for Salvation (emphasis added).

After having REREAD this post not a single Papal Encyclical states that DEVOTION to Mary is necessary for salvation.

UNITAS,
You make the statement that the writing of some particular saint (St Louis) is part of the deposit of faith…the deposit of faith is defined as The source or fount of revealed truths, namely, Scripture and Tradition, which must be accepted by all true Christians on the authority of God. …SACRED TRADITION…that doesn’t include the writings of saints unless we’re talking about scriptures.

We have a spurious quote suppossedly belonging to Saint Ignatius, we have NOT ENCYCLICAL stating Devotion is Necessary for salvation.

Read the Baltimore Catechism or the CCC and you’ll find absolutely ZERO mention of DEVOTION to Mary being necessary to Salvation.

Once and for all, this is NOT a teaching of the Church…don’t take my word for it, write to your bishop or to the Vatican.

Mary is great, wonderful, etc…but a Devotion to her is NOT necessary for salvation.

I don’t care how much Saint Monifort or whomever else you want to quote (and most of these quotes are unsourced) the CHURCH does NOT TEACH Devotion to Mary is Necessary for Salvation.

Relax… maybe you haven’t gotten the meat of the discussion just as yet.

We believe in a three legged-stool source faith. Traditions, Magisterium and Scripture. If a belief is not found in the one of this sources, it doesn’t mean it is not true. Traditions and teachings of the saints, popes … (mind you, are you searching for the exact phrase “Necessary for Salvation”?)… but you only search in the scripture or you need it to be defined as dogma but at the same time disregard the teachings of the popes and saints which are traditions.

As often as I have challenged you…show us a document of the church refuting the necessity of the Blessed Mother and we’ll show you countless documents from our brothers and sisters now in the company of the Lord.

The Blessed mother is the mediatrix of all graces. We are saved only through grace.

Don’t be like our brother protestants who needed everything to be written so you’d come to know the truth for even the “Trinity” or the “Incarnation” is nowhere to be found in the bible.

Hold on fast to the traditions they handed down to us …

We are not forcing you to accept a belief that you don’t hold on to…but we are advising you not to trash-talk the teachings of the saints and the popes because that is really rude… Peace Bro.

 

[nilofc]

One more thing…

What do you mean when you say that these quotes of the saints are “unsourced”? I can buy you books by St. Louis de Montfort…if you want.

Readings books is a great tool to learn more about the faith.

 

[rinnie]

I Will Admit This Though, Alot Of Good, Real Good Info Went Into This. And Got Alot Of People Thinking. Good Thread!

 

[nilofc]

I Will Admit This Though, Alot Of Good, Real Good Info Went Into This. And Got Alot Of People Thinking. Good Thread!

Well some people (me) are over eager in defending the Blessed Virgin. We must always think that we are defending our Mother, not a quarterback, not a goal line. We must think that we should defend her only as she would want to be defended.

No mother worth the name wants her children to go on the offensive in defending her. No mother worth the name wants her children to be rude in defending her. No mother worth the name wants to be the subject of a schoolyard brawl.

For such defenders, the goal is to win the argument, even if it mean utterly humilaiting their “enemies”.

That is no way to prove Marian doctrines. Children of Mary have no enemies. We know only our brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ-our adelphoi, from the same womb. We need not so much argue them back home (though arguments are sometimes necessary) as love them home (though love can sometimes be tough).

Moreover, we must never grow overly proud that we have come to recognize ourselves as children of the queen mother. We must never come to believe that we have all the answers. Though the answers are all available to us, no one is ever in full possession of them. God will continue to humble us, to remind us that we’re children by allowing us to fall and to find ourselves without the right answer at the right moment. He’ll even permit this when we are, ostensibly, working for His good cause.

SH

 

[bear06]

Mary is great, wonderful, etc…but a Devotion to her is NOT necessary for salvation.

I guess my point has been missed again. She’s not necessary for a person’s salvation unless, of course, she is. It is clear by the saint and papal quotes given that she is necessary for the salvation of no less than some. Again, you can’t possibly say what is and what is not necessary for salvation for everyone, right. I think we can all agree wthat Christ is the only assured thing necessary for salvation. That said, what can bring us to Christ is a completely different ball game. Like I said, people seem to be missing this sublety.

Another thing that has been completely ignored is doctrine on the Communion of Saints. This Communion is most necessary. In fact, it’s so necessary that it’s contained in the creed. Are their some who will get to heaven without a belief it it? Again, yes. That said, it’s not even close to the ordinary means.

Also, as far as Church documents go and keeping in mind that there are a rare few who can get to heaven without a devotion to Mary, this Apostolic Constitution would seem to oppose anyone who says that Marian devotion is never necessary for salvation.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

Our soul overflows with joy and our tongue with exultation. We give, and we shall continue to give, the humblest and deepest thanks to Jesus Christ, our Lord, because through his singular grace he has granted to us, unworthy though we be, to decree and offer this honor and glory and praise to his most holy Mother. All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin – in the all fair and immaculate one who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world: in her who is the glory of the prophets and apostles, the honor of the martyrs, the crown and joy of all the saints; in her who is the safest refuge and the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger; in her who, with her only-begotten Son, is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world; in her who is the most excellent glory, ornament, and impregnable stronghold of the holy Church; in her who has destroyed all heresies and snatched the faithful people and nations from all kinds of direst calamities; in her do we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers. We have, therefore, a very certain hope and complete confidence that the most Blessed Virgin will ensure by her most powerful patronage that all difficulties be removed and all errors dissipated, so that our Holy Mother the Catholic Church may flourish daily more and more throughout all the nations and countries, and may reign “from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the earth,” and may enjoy genuine peace, tranquility and liberty. **We are firm in our confidence that she will obtain pardon for the sinner, health for the sick, strength of heart for the weak, consolation for the afflicted, help for those in danger; that she will remove spiritual blindness from all who are in error, so that they may return to the path of truth and justice, and that here may be one flock and one shepherd. **Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard.

You’ve got to ask your self why in heaven’s name the Holy Father ever suggest going to her if all everyone needed to do was pray to Christ? Why would the Church suggest that she obtains pardon for sinners? Remember, he didn’t say we should go to here as a good example (not that she wasn’t). He said we should go to her because she could obtain pardon for sinners. Remember, all of her privelages come from God. Nobody is saying that alone she can remove sin or protect. If God has deemed her a most efficacious, how could we say that she’s not? She is indeed capable of havning the desired results.

 

[rinnie]

I guess my point has been missed again. She’s not necessary for a person’s salvation unless, of course, she is. It is clear by the saint and papal quotes given that she is necessary for the salvation of no less than some. Again, you can’t possibly say what is and what is not necessary for salvation for everyone, right. I think we can all agree wthat Christ is the only assured thing necessary for salvation. That said, what can bring us to Christ is a completely different ball game. Like I said, people seem to be missing this sublety.

Another thing that has been completely ignored is doctrine on the Communion of Saints. This Communion is most necessary. In fact, it’s so necessary that it’s contained in the creed. Are their some who will get to heaven without a belief it it? Again, yes. That said, it’s not even close to the ordinary means.

Also, as far as Church documents go and keeping in mind that there are a rare few who can get to heaven without a devotion to Mary, this Apostolic Constitution would seem to oppose anyone who says that Marian devotion is never necessary for salvation.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

You’ve got to ask your self why in heaven’s name the Holy Father ever suggest going to her if all everyone needed to do was pray to Christ? Why would the Church suggest that she obtains pardon for sinners? Remember, he didn’t say we should go to here as a good example (not that she wasn’t). He said we should go to her because she could obtain pardon for sinners. Remember, all of her privelages come from God. Nobody is saying that alone she can remove sin or protect. If God has deemed her a most efficacious, how could we say that she’s not? She is indeed capable of havning the desired results.

Now that is a very very good point, And especially the last paragraph is also a true point.

 

[peso73]

I don’t think devotion to Our Lady is necessary intrinsically. It may be necessary, however, for obedience to the Church and Holy Tradition. In this sense, it may be necessary.

“If anyone shall not confess the holy ever-virgin Mary, truly and properly the Mother of God, to be higher than every creature whether visible or invisible, and does not with sincere faith seek her intercessions as of one having confidence in her access to our God, since she bare him, [anathema].” – Second Ecumenical Council of Nicea

OK, see now there ya go. It is proper and helpful to honor and pray to her for her intercession, and perhaps as catholic christians, necessary as far as following our church’s lead, but to say what the title of this thread claims is not the truth. That would mean for example, the mass majority of modern day protestants, all the jews, and the rest of the world, exept the catholics and orthodox would be in hell.

 

[nilofc]

OK, see now there ya go. It is proper and helpful to honor and pray to her for her intercession, and perhaps as catholic christians, necessary as far as following our church’s lead, but to say what the title of this thread claims is not the truth. That would mean for example, the mass majority of modern day protestants, all the jews, and the rest of the world, exept the catholics and orthodox would be in hell.

Show me a church document that proves your opinion that Mary is not necessary. (I’m going to play your Sola-Scriptura logic)