Devotion To Our Lady Is Necessary For Salvation

[Yerusalyim]

Relax… maybe you haven’t gotten the meat of the discussion just as yet.

We believe in a three legged-stool source faith. Traditions, Magisterium and Scripture. If a belief is not found in the one of this sources, it doesn’t mean it is not true. Traditions and teachings of the saints, popes … (mind you, are you searching for the exact phrase “Necessary for Salvation”?)… but you only search in the scripture or you need it to be defined as dogma but at the same time disregard the teachings of the popes and saints which are traditions.

As often as I have challenged you…show us a document of the church refuting the necessity of the Blessed Mother and we’ll show you countless documents from our brothers and sisters now in the company of the Lord.

The Blessed mother is the mediatrix of all graces. We are saved only through grace.

Don’t be like our brother protestants who needed everything to be written so you’d come to know the truth for even the “Trinity” or the “Incarnation” is nowhere to be found in the bible.

Hold on fast to the traditions they handed down to us …

We are not forcing you to accept a belief that you don’t hold on to…but we are advising you not to trash-talk the teachings of the saints and the popes because that is really rude… Peace Bro.

NIF,

First, let me say that I am NOT trash-talking the writings of the Saints and Popes. I love our Lady though I’m not a big rosary prayer, etc. I admit and believe all the Church teaches us about Mary.

You rightly point to the three legs that our the foundation of our faith, Tradition, Scripture, and the Magesterium (though I still want to point out that the Magesterium does not fall into the definition of the Deposit of Faith). Having said that, the writings of the Saints, while definitely to be considered, pondered, what have you, in no way contribute either to the Magesterium or Tradition, so appeal to them on this issue is pointless. The BELIEF of some popes, while important, are not defined as teachings. So I again state EMPHATICALLY, that I find NOTHING in scripture, Tradition or from the Magesterium that indicate that DEVOTION to Mary is NECESSARY for Salvation. I also strongly believe that such statements can cause great harm to the faithful who generally aren’t into the nuances we could get into about the ROLE of Mary in the economy of Salvation or that devotion to her proved important to the salvation of some individuals.

You’ve got to ask your self why in heaven’s name the Holy Father ever suggest going to her if all everyone needed to do was pray to Christ? Why would the Church suggest that she obtains pardon for sinners?

The better point is that IF DEVOTION to Mary was NECESSARY for Salvation, the Church would state so EMPHATICALLY, and has not.

What do you mean when you say that these quotes of the saints are “unsourced”? I can buy you books by St. Louis de Montfort…if you want.

I was MOSTLY referring to the spurious quote attributed to St. Ignatious stating that Devotion to Mary was necessary. St Ignatious NEVER stated such a thing…however, common protocol when quoting something to give either the URL to a link or cite the work from which the quote is taken so that it can be read IN CONTEXT…which is quite important.

 

[rinnie]

Ok It took me like what is this post 399 to understand what this thread is trying to say. Correct me if im wrong. We all know that when we pray and ask the Blessed Mother to help us her prayers can help. She even promises us if we are faithful to certain prayers she PROMISES to be with us at the hour of our death. Okay now if we say that devotion to her cant help get us into heaven we are saying we dont believe in intercession. RIGHT. Now what the OP said she is necessary for SOME people. What he means that without her prayers and intercession some people wouldnt make it into heaven. Just like we can help pray people into heaven. If we dont believe that we cant pray souls in purgatory into heaven we dont believe in the RCC. Now i know im gonna get slammed on this, but just hear me out here, is my proof. My Dad told me this along time ago, read the beginning of Job, now his kids we like kind of bad lets say, they wernt good like Job, Now at the end of Job God says i will listen to Jobs Prayers because he is faithful and obeys me and doesnt question me. Now he said the other 2 friends prayers he WONT listen to. Now my Dad said Job prayed his kids into heaven. Intercession works. Now we pray and ask the Blessed Mother every day to help us she Can, YOU KNOW GOD LISTENS to her prayers, you KNOW she is GOOD WITHOUT SIN. When we die and we stay close to her and ask for her help, her prayers work in this world and the next. She knows us, we talk to her everyday. ALSO you go to her and God who are you keeping away? THE DEVIL. Of course thats why intercession words. And the Saints you know they are Good, and God listens to who Listened to him. I finally Got it. Hope you guys can understand this, and hope this is what the thread was supposed to explain.

 

[TylerM]

Catechism of the Catholic Church
971: …"The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship"

969 …"Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.

Just following up an earlier post. I think I am in agreement with the catechism on this point. When I said that devotion to Our Lady is not intrinsically necessary, I meant that I don’t believe it is an essential source of saving grace in its own right. However, as the catechism states it is essential to Christian worship! Insofar as holding fast to Sacred Tradition is a duty of Christians, it is necessary.

 

[peso73]

Show me a church document that proves your opinion that Mary is not necessary. (I’m going to play your Sola-Scriptura logic)

I never said Mary was not necessary. I said having a devotion to her was not required for someone to end up in Heaven. And I am not Sola-Scriptura, and I didn’t say because it is not in scripture it is not true, I say it’s not true because it’s not true. Read Yerusalyim’s post a couple up from your smart remark. I agree with her/him. That is what I am trying to say too, and I think you can just read her/his posts from now on as this thread is feeding the black dog inside me and I want the white one to win.

 

[Schultzz]

Now what the OP said she is necessary for SOME people.

Good post but aren’t you putting the quote before the horse?

If, through Our Lady’s intercession some poor soul was saved from eternal damnation we could say that "if it weren’t for our lady interceding for this poor soul he/she would not have received salvation. The title of the current topic does not say this. It presupposes that you might be able to understand this. I believe it is misleading and has caused great dissention on this site. If that was the intent of the OP then it was successful. If our Lord grants salvation through His Holy Judgement as a result of our Lady praying to Her Son for this favorable judgement it is soley the judgement of our Lord and NOT that of our Lady. So to say that “Devotion to Our Lady is Necessary for Salvation” is assumed. It is NOT a fact, and is definitely NOT a certainty.

 

[Schultzz]

“Show me a church document that proves your opinion that Mary is not necessary. (I’m going to play your Sola-Scriptura logic)”

I can’t respond to the document because I don’t think it exists. But I can quote someone who I used to know. He used to say,

“It’s no sin to be stupid, but don’t you think that you might be abusing the privilege?”

 

[Curious_One]

Hello, having just read this posting, I would like to know where this teaching eminates from?

Which Bible tells us that Salvation is in or from anyone else other than Jesus.

If Mary is the ‘Mother of God’ did she give birth to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and if so when. Where can I find the mother of god teaching in scripture. Please tell me which Bible passages I must read and in what Bible!

Curious One…Confused…

 

[Schultzz]

Hello, having just read this posting, I would like to know where this teaching eminates from?

Which Bible tells us that Salvation is in or from anyone else other than Jesus.

If Mary is the ‘Mother of God’ did she give birth to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and if so when. Where can I find the mother of god teaching in scripture. Please tell me which Bible passages I must read and in what Bible!

Curious One…Confused…

Thanks for your post and welcome to this forum. I am sure that you will find a plethora of answers to your question. If not on this thread then from a search. I personally think this topic has been going on longer than its natural life expectancy, yet that is just my opinion.

 

[Curious_One]

Thanks Schultzz, but how about answering my questions. It may seem that this thread has run a long time that is because all the Bibles I and no doubt other have read clearly teach that Salvation is in Jesus alone and no-one else.

If they are all wrong, can you let me go to Hell for all eternity because you won’t tell me where I can find the truth, and because you are bored with the subject?

In Genesis chapter one it says ‘in the beginning was God’, if this is true, where was Mary ‘the mother of God’?

Is the Apostle John a liar when he says at the begining of his Gospel “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning”

If this is true, then Mary must have been there in the beginning in order to be the mother of God!

Is Jesus a liar, when he said according to John’s Gospel, “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” :bible1:

 

[peso73]

Thanks Schultzz, but how about answering my questions. It may seem that this thread has run a long time that is because all the Bibles I and no doubt other have read clearly teach that Salvation is in Jesus alone and no-one else.

If they are all wrong, can you let me go to Hell for all eternity because you won’t tell me where I can find the truth, and because you are bored with the subject?

In Genesis chapter one it says ‘in the beginning was God’, if this is true, where was Mary ‘the mother of God’?

Is the Apostle John a liar when he says at the begining of his Gospel “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning”

If this is true, then Mary must have been there in the beginning in order to be the mother of God!

Is Jesus a liar, when he said according to John’s Gospel, “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” :bible1:

Don’t play dumb… Mary is Jesus’ mom, Jesus was “God with us”, therefore Mary is honored by the title “Mother of God”, not because she was before God.
ok that’s it for me, peace to all

 

[CBS]

I disagree. I that were the case, it seems we’d be called Marians, not Christians.

I agree. It took me a long time to overcome Marian devotion to even consider becoming Catholic. Once I could distinguish between venerating and worshiping I became more comfortable with it. I still do not give her as much credit as other Catholics. If it becomes law that Marian devotion is required for Salvation I would not convert.

Christ comes before all else, once you distort that you are no longer Christian.

 

[Unitas]

Thanks Schultzz, but how about answering my questions. It may seem that this thread has run a long time that is because all the Bibles I and no doubt other have read clearly teach that Salvation is in Jesus alone and no-one else.

If they are all wrong, can you let me go to Hell for all eternity because you won’t tell me where I can find the truth, and because you are bored with the subject?

In Genesis chapter one it says ‘in the beginning was God’, if this is true, where was Mary ‘the mother of God’?

Is the Apostle John a liar when he says at the begining of his Gospel “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning”

If this is true, then Mary must have been there in the beginning in order to be the mother of God!

Is Jesus a liar, when he said according to John’s Gospel, “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” :bible1:

For your points to have merit, you must first prove that the bible is the sole authority on christianity.

Which you won’t because you can’t.

 

[johnnydigit]

Mary is like an express elevator to Jesus.

if you’re Catholic, you owe it to yourself to learn more about her and why we exalt her so. there is so much in the Bible about her and her importance in salvation history that it will completely blow your mind.

if you love Jesus, you look to the lives of the Saints to help you to love Jesus even more, and Mary is thee Saint of all Saints.

be open to what any priest, monk, or nun will tell you, and you will open up a whole new dimension of our faith. you can start here or even here.

TIME Magazine: Hail, Mary… now Protestants are finding their own reasons to celebrate the mother of Jesus
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
time.com/time/covers/1101050321

Mother of God, be mother to me.

 

[Curious_One]

Hi Peso73,

an interesting thought I guess you are not a trinitarian then, and like Unitas you don’t believe that Scripture is the final authority!

I believe that Scripture teaches that it is authoritive because it is the Word of God and not because some fallen men (or women) think they have the smarts to add or remove from its teachings at will, or because they approve or disapprove of what it has to say.

A wise man once said " the beginning of all unbelief starts and ends with the Bible, it depends on whether they read it and judge what it has to say or whether they read it and are judged by what is says".

I would also guess that there are many RCs pre-Vatican 11 who are still going strong and who would not be into the whole Mary thing, indeed there is much division within Roman Catholicism over these issues as far as I can tell by observation.

When we put or allow fallen unregenrated men in authority over us Spiritually, and deny the clear teaching and authority of Scripture, we in Jesus’ view “become slaves to that which has mastered us”

Unitas (odd name for one who divides), if you read the Bible you will discover that there are two authorities we as Christians adhere to 1 the Word of God (because the Word is Jesus) and 2 the teach of the Church (because the Church is Jesus) the is no human authority outside of Jesus (physically or spiritually).

Start with the Gospel of John chp 14 - 17 the explanation start here and continues throughout the remainder of the NT. :hug1:

 

[Curious_One]

Hi Peso73,

an interesting thought I guess you are not a trinitarian then, and like Unitas you don’t believe that Scripture is the final authority!

I believe that Scripture teaches that it is authoritive because it is the Word of God and not because some fallen men (or women) think they have the smarts to add or remove from its teachings at will, or because they approve or disapprove of what it has to say.

A wise man once said " the beginning of all unbelief starts and ends with the Bible, it depends on whether they read it and judge what it has to say or whether they read it and are judged by what is says".

I would also guess that there are many RCs pre-Vatican 11 who are still going strong and who would not be into the whole Mary thing, indeed there is much division within Roman Catholicism over these issues as far as I can tell by observation.

When we put or allow fallen unregenrated men in authority over us Spiritually, and deny the clear teaching and authority of Scripture, we in Jesus’ view “become slaves to that which has mastered us”

Unitas (odd name for one who divides), if you read the Bible you will discover that there are two authorities we as Christians adhere to 1 the Word of God (because the Word is Jesus) and 2 the teach of the Church (because the Church is Jesus) the is no human authority outside of Jesus (physically or spiritually).

Start with the Gospel of John chp 14 - 17 the explanation start here and continues throughout the remainder of the NT. :hug1:

 

[nilofc]

Hi Peso73,

an interesting thought I guess you are not a trinitarian then, and like Unitas you don’t believe that Scripture is the final authority!

Not trinitarian? So tell me if the bible is the final authority…where in the bible is the word “Trinity” found?

Can you tell me what is the pillar and bulwark of the truth? Who or what gives us the truth?

 

[Roy5]

MARY AND ST. PAUL

Mary certainly merits the respect and gratitude of all Christians. But the adulation and adoration of her as practiced by many seems excessive.

 I have asked this question before and nobody seems to provide a cogent response. St. Paul, whose writings are the earliest found in the New Testament, wrote many letters expounding on the Christian faith and what early Christians should believe. In all his letters he does not mention Mary even once. If Mary was so central among the earliest Christians, why does he make no reference to her?

  This other point has been debated already - I know - but the only two references to Mary between the birth of Christ and his resurrection seem to depict Jesus as somewhat dismissive of his mother. If he wanted her to receive such acclaim in the Church, these were opportunities to make that clear.

 

[johnnydigit]

MARY AND ST. PAUL

Mary certainly merits the respect and gratitude of all Christians. But the adulation and adoration of her as practiced by many seems excessive.

 I have asked this question before and nobody seems to provide a cogent response. St. Paul, whose writings are the earliest found in the New Testament, wrote many letters expounding on the Christian faith and what early Christians should believe. In all his letters he does not mention Mary even once. If Mary was so central among the earliest Christians, why does he make no reference to her?

  This other point has been debated already - I know - but the only two references to Mary between the birth of Christ and his resurrection seem to depict Jesus as somewhat dismissive of his mother. If he wanted her to receive such acclaim in the Church, these were opportunities to make that clear.

St. Paul addresses the problems of the Churches at the time. the Passover is central yet it is not explained in detail because it was common knowledge at the time. perhaps Mary as a respected figure among the Apostles was already established and didn’t need addressing at that time?

perhaps God intended Mary’s importance to be revealed by the Church over time? it is obvious she is the Mother of God, but it didn’t need to be declared at that time. it is now, possibly because of her outright rejection. e.g. the Canon didn’t need to be established until people rejected what had been the norm.

Jesus in those instances was never interpreted to be dismissive until her rejection by protestants. “woman” refers to scripture and Eve. Jews already know this and recognize it. there is plenty of acclaim for Mary in scripture, even in the Old Testament. the most obvious is, “Behold, your mother,” and “all generations shall call me blessed”. these always had deep meaning until protestants wrote them off as nothing. throwing out tradition throws out our Christian history.

 

[bear06]

Hi Peso73,

an interesting thought I guess you are not a trinitarian then, and like Unitas you don’t believe that Scripture is the final authority!

 

[Curious_One]

Bear06…I guess I prefer to take God at His Word…rather than the rantings of fallen men…by whatever title they may give themselves

The word you highlight was the teaching of the Apostle Paul to the church via Timothy, and for the church over time…

Nilofc…I guess you can find ‘trinity’ in the same place as you can find Mary’s Assumption, Her Perpetual Virginity, Her Coronation as Queen of Heaven, Her metomorphesis into the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant, Her Coronation in Heaven and Her Appointment as our Powerful Intercessor and the New Eve (Q. If Mary is the New Eve and Jesus is the New Adam does that mean they are husband and wife as well as mother and son?)