Devotion To Our Lady Is Necessary For Salvation

[jimmy]

So, you are saying that the Popes on that list are wrong?

I am saying they were wrong. The Holy Spirit does not need Mary to give Him to man. The Holy Spirit can go where He wills.

 

[jimmy]

There is more than one thing necessary for salvation.

Among them are:

Baptism

Submission to the Roman Pontiff

Inclusion in the Catholic Church…

Holding to what the Church teaches…

How one can be saved and ignore she whose heart is intertwined with God’s is doubtful in my opinion based on the teaching of the Church.

Well since the apostles and their immediate successors did not teach that devotion to Mary was necessary and that is enough for me.

The quote from Ignatius above is false.

 

[Freshman88]

I am saying they were wrong. The Holy Spirit does not need Mary to give Him to man. The Holy Spirit can go where He wills.

I believe that the likes of St. Louis De Monitfort would argue that since the Holy Spirit chose Mary to bring forth the New Covenant, that it was indeed necessary in the same way that it was necessary that Judas betrayed Christ.

I’m unsure if Mary is needed for salvation, but I certainly agree that God’s grace flows through Her, and that She is a means to Christ.

Sancte Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostra, Amen.

 

[jimmy]

I believe that the likes of St. Louis De Monitfort would argue that since the Holy Spirit chose Mary to bring forth the New Covenant, that it was indeed necessary in the same way that it was necessary that Judas betrayed Christ.

That misses the point. It is not about whether Christ being born of Mary was necessary. The question is whether Mary handles every Grace and our salvation is determined by Mary. The most offensive quote above is the one by Bernardine who says that Mary dispenses Grace, “to whomsoever she desires, when she desires, in the maner she desires, and to whatever degree she desires.” As if she is the determiner of salvation. It is complete nonsense and I will say now that it is heresy.

I’m unsure if Mary is needed for salvation, but I certainly agree that God’s grace flows through Her, and that She is a means to Christ.

I agree that she is a means to Christ but the fact is that Gods Grace is not something that is created and needs to be handled by Mary. Grace is nothing other than God Himself.

 

[Freshman88]

That misses the point. It is not about whether Christ being born of Mary was necessary. The question is whether Mary handles every Grace and our salvation is determined by Mary. The most offensive quote above is the one by Bernardine who says that Mary dispenses Grace, “to whomsoever she desires, when she desires, in the maner she desires, and to whatever degree she desires.” As if she is the determiner of salvation. It is complete nonsense and I will say now that it is heresy.

Yes but there are two points to be made.

1. Mary was sinless.
2. Thus is follows that everything the Queen of heaven does is in accordance with God.

The arguement made is that because of Her sinlessness she has perfect obedience, this perfect obedience means that everything she does is in accordance with God’s will. Recall that in heaven only God’s will is done, whatever Mary desires is what Christ desires.

I agree that she is a means to Christ but the fact is that Gods Grace is not something that is created and needs to be handled by Mary. Grace is nothing other than God Himself.

But God Himself has choosen Mary as conduit of His Grace. Though Grace does not originate in Mary, the arguement is made that it could pass through Mary.

The heart of the problem then, seems to be whether or not ALL grace flows through Mary. I don’t see why not - after all she is the Queen of heaven, Mother of God.

 

[dcb188]

Interesting that Jesus’ focus was strictly on the Father, not Mary.

 

[Freshman88]

Interesting that Jesus’ focus was strictly on the Father, not Mary.

But is not also interesting that Mary is the Holy Tabernacle, Queen of Heaven and Mother of God? Mary was in the background throughout scriptures as a pivotal character.

In fact. St. Louis de Montifort argued that God did not reveal the glory of Mary in the early Church out of respect for her desire to be humble - hence why there is no direct focus on Mary in the scriptures. He then argues that as the final days approach, that Mary’s glory will be revealed more and more because she will be needed more so.

I think he makes a strong argument, even prophetic. It is only in recent centuries that we are seeing stronger and stronger devotion to Mary. Perhaps the final days are closer then we think.

 

[dcb188]

Interesting, yes. I meant that in the Bible itself there are very few references to Mary, and this is surprising given the way she is/was viewed in later times. I wonder, and I do not know the answer to this, I wonder what the early Church fathers had to say about Mary. Does anyone have that info? Thanks…

 

[jimmy]

Yes but there are two points to be made.

1. Mary was sinless.
2. Thus is follows that everything the Queen of heaven does is in accordance with God.

The arguement made is that because of Her sinlessness she has perfect obedience, this perfect obedience means that everything she does is in accordance with God’s will. Recall that in heaven only God’s will is done, whatever Mary desires is what Christ desires.

That is false logic though. All those in heaven are sinless now and they all act according to Gods will so I could just as easily say that John the baptist is the mediatrix of all graces and he distributes Grace to whom he likes, when he likes and how he likes. In addition it is part of tradition that John the baptist was sinless.

But God Himself has choosen Mary as conduit of His Grace. Though Grace does not originate in Mary, the arguement is made that it could pass through Mary.

No, Grace does not pass through Mary. Grace passes through the Son. The Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, not Mary.

The heart of the problem then, seems to be whether or not ALL grace flows through Mary. I don’t see why not - after all she is the Queen of heaven, Mother of God.

It doesn’t even make it that far. The problem is whether Mary is the distributer of Grace or whether she is simply someone who prays for us. Did Mary handle the Holy Spirit at our baptism and place Him within us?

 

[Freshman88]

Interesting, yes. I meant that in the Bible itself there are very few references to Mary, and this is surprising given the way she is/was viewed in later times. I wonder, and I do not know the answer to this, I wonder what the early Church fathers had to say about Mary. Does anyone have that info? Thanks…

Yes and out of respect for her humility, so goes the arguement, she is hidden in scripture, only to be revealed by the graces that will be needed in the final days.

Yet if one looks at scriptures where Mary is mentioned, one cannot help but see her as a key figure, and her hiddeness is revealed. Christ was conceived in Her, Christ was nourished by her, Christ was born out of her, Christ was watched over by her, Christ was comforted by her at Calvary.

Indeed Christ seems to flow through Mary.

 

[Freshman88]

That is false logic though. All those in heaven are sinless now and they all act according to Gods will so I could just as easily say that John the baptist is the mediatrix of all graces and he distributes Grace to whom he likes, when he likes and how he likes. In addition it is part of tradition that John the baptist was sinless.

Excellent point, I should further qualify that Mary has mediatorial nature throughout the Gospel. John the baptist is a forerunner, but Christ was not conceived in him.

No, Grace does not pass through Mary. Grace passes through the Son. The Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, not Mary.

Yet the Son was conceived by Mary, and was housed by Mary like a Holy Tabernacle. The wedding feast at Cana was also intiated by Mary. There are countless examples that St. Louis De Monitfort draws on.

It doesn’t even make it that far. The problem is whether Mary is the distributer of Grace or whether she is simply someone who prays for us. Did Mary handle the Holy Spirit at our baptism and place Him within us?

Well, she was certainly chosen to bring forth the Christ. Christ’s very flesh was partly Mary’s. What does this mean for something even as important as the Eucharist - the very flesh of Christ contains Mary and her lineage.

I am inclined to agree with these arguements, Mary is simply too pivotal.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

But is not also interesting that Mary is the Holy Tabernacle, Queen of Heaven and Mother of God? Mary was in the background throughout scriptures as a pivotal character.

In fact. St. Louis de Montifort argued that God did not reveal the glory of Mary in the early Church out of respect for her desire to be humble - hence why there is no direct focus on Mary in the scriptures. He then argues that as the final days approach, that Mary’s glory will be revealed more and more because she will be needed more so.

I think he makes a strong argument, even prophetic. It is only in recent centuries that we are seeing stronger and stronger devotion to Mary. Perhaps the final days are closer then we think.

Maybe you are right - a dilution of what we should focus on could be a marker of the end times.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Yes and out of respect for her humility, so goes the arguement, she is hidden in scripture, only to be revealed by the graces that will be needed in the final days.

Yet if one looks at scriptures where Mary is mentioned, one cannot help but see her as a key figure, and her hiddeness is revealed. Christ was conceived in Her, Christ was nourished by her, Christ was born out of her, Christ was watched over by her, Christ was comforted by her at Calvary.

Indeed Christ seems to flow through Mary.

NOPE - that is a serious stretch.

Jesus came to do such an important job - we should feel secure what we need to known is NOT hidden.

 

[Freshman88]

NOPE - that is a serious stretch.

Jesus came to do such an important job - we should feel secure what we need to known is NOT hidden.

So our interpretation of scripture has ended? This certainly is not the case, the scriptures are living breathing document of the Church. That we have begun to see Mary in a new role is just living proof of this.

We should feel secure that the Scriptures are not dead.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

All this talk about ‘revealing’ the BVM’s role makes her sound like a rabbit that will pop out of a hat.

And - on a more serious side - that Jesus did not tell us all we needed to know and do.

 

[Freshman88]

Maybe you are right - a dilution of what we should focus on could be a marker of the end times.

Hardly a dilution, in fact quite the opposite, it is an expanding of what we understand.

An example of this was the first Vatican council with the proclamation of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. Was this a dilution? Were men wrong to believe in the Assumption before it was proclaimed?

Again, the scriptures are not dead. Yours isn’'t a very strong argument. If you really want to argue, you might want to join the discussion on whether Mary can be a conduit of grace, and whether scripture and tradition support this.

 

[Freshman88]

All this talk about ‘revealing’ the BVM’s role makes her sound like a rabbit that will pop out of a hat.

And - on a more serious side - that Jesus did not tell us all we needed to know and do.

Eilish, don’t drag me down into your childish antics - how old are you? I bet I’m half your age, grow up.

We do not have any written account of Jesus telling us that the Virgin was assumed into heaven, yet it is important to understand this. This point is supported by scripture, but more so by tradition, and is a proud cornerstone of Marian tradition.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Hardly a dilution, in fact quite the opposite, it is an expanding of what we understand.

An example of this was the first Vatican council with the proclamation of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. Was this a dilution? Were men wrong to believe in the Assumption before it was proclaimed?

Again, the scriptures are not dead. This isn’'t a very strong argument. If you really want to argue, you might want to join the discussion on whether Mary can be a conduit of grace, and whether scripture and tradition support this.

The Assumption - nice but is it really that vital?

It is also a nice pious theory that John the Baptist was born without the stain of original sin because he ‘lept in his mother’s womb’ that time. Again - is it vital?

For all we know she could be like a piece of window dressing that the light of God shines through that does not block our view nor prevent any of it from reaching us.

 

[Freshman88]

The Assumption - nice but is it really that vital?

It is a Tradition of the Church - all Traditions are vital.

The Assumption is vital in that it lets us understand that God made sure that he protected his Holy Vessel from the defilement of men, corruption and sin.

Indeed, by your logic there was no need for the ecumenical councils. Is it really necessary that we understand that icons are okay? Of course it is, every corner of the Truth is sacred and holy, and teaches us a lot about our life in Christ.

The Church has made it clear that every corner of Truth is vital, that is why Church history is filled with great ecumenical councils and dramatic debates. The Truth in all its respects, is important, even necessary to pursue.

For all we know she could be like a piece of window dressing that the light of God shines through that does not block our view nor prevent any of it from reaching us.

A window dressing is inadequate.

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

Mary is more than a window, for her prayers sustain our very own - she brings us closer to Christ. In fact Mary is more a magnifying glass, to carry on your glass analogy.

 

[GerardP]

That is complete nonsense, especially the last paragraph. Read the scriptures and you will see the erroneousness of your arguement.

Hmm…Not quite Jimmy. I think you need to read the scriptures.

Isaiah 59:1

Behold the hand of the Lord is not shortened that it cannot save, neither is his ear heavy that it cannot hear. 2 But your iniquities have divided between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you that he should not hear.

John 9:31

Now we know that God doth not hear sinners: but if a man be a server of God, and doth his will, him he heareth.

Christ is our mediator, not Mary.

Christ is the mediator between man and the Father. Mary is the mediator between our sinful selves and Christ.

In addition you portray a god that can’t even love as much as one of his creatures?

No. I portray a God who is so infinite we can’t reach him in a sinful fallen state. He therefore lowers Himself to us in the Eucharist in which He can grant us eternal life. But only if we stay in the state of Grace.

When we are not in the state of Grace we have driven Him away. He knew this of course from all Eternity and therefore set about giving us a series of subordinate mediators who can obtain grace from Him on our behalf. (saints and angels) Mary is the first among them and the most effective of them.

You portray Mary as having greater love for man than God does. God is unwilling to hear our prayers but Mary will. Complete nonsense.

No. You’ve got it all backwards. The problem is you (all of us) don’t love God enough and you are incapable of loving Him enough to warrant standing in His presence. If the sinless and unbelievably powerful Seraphim shield their eyes with their wings because they dare not gaze upon God’s presence, how can you?

What I’m presenting is what the Church teaches about a God who loves you so much more infinitely than you can imagine that He has given us His greatest creation.

Immeasurably more perfect than the Seraphim, she has been sanctified by Him to the point where her eyes are the mirror that can look at God without shattering, and she, being a creature can listen to us in our dirt, filth and degradation. She will obtain the grace for us to find our way, clear the path for our purification in her son’s sacraments and bring us to Him and tell us to “do what He says” as she did at the Wedding at Cana.

She magnifies the Lord for us. Not because He can’t see us, but because we can no longer see the way to Him.

Why did God hear the prayers of Isaac in Gen.25?

Because Isaac was a righteous man. And God rewarded him by making him the ancestor of Mary and Jesus.

Why does Christ say that we will receive anything we ask of the Father in His name?

If you ask the Father for sex with someone else’s spouse in Christ’s name. Do you really think God is going to give it to you?

As I said, it is complete nonsense to say that Mary’s intercession is necessary for salvation.

It is not nonsense. Mary’s intercession is the help we need to get to the Risen Son. You’ve got primary and secondary mediation. That’s all.

But who would want to go to the judgement seat of Christ and not want to hear the words, “My Mother has spoken well of you.” ??

“Of Mary there is never enough.”