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Miles_Mariae
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How can I possibly decide whether to listen to Saints, Popes, and Doctors of the Church or internet forum advocates of sola scriptura?
Tough choice…
Tough choice…
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planter654
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I disagree with you when you said: WE don’t simply attain salvation because God exist". Adam lost his eternal salvation because of his disobedience to God’s commandments! “If you do you shall surly die”! Adam and Eve made a choice to listen to Satan and believed in Satan! That is why there is a HELL! Satan is trying to build his Kingdom also! Satan wants to be worshippedWell, they haven’t really answered anything directly pertaining to Church teaching. The only thing we’ve heard is that most things were just found in encyclicals (therefore we can ignore?). They seem to wholly skip the fact that the terms they show disdain for are found in a Dogmatic Constitution of a council.
I also think that some are overlooking the very real fact that while Christ one the ultimately victory, He chooses to employ different means for people to gain heaven. Could He do things one way for all? Absolutely! That said, He doesn’t choose to do so. For someone to say that a Marian devotion is not necessary for salvation for anyone is ridiculous and perfectly out of the scope of judgment for anyone. We have no idea the means Christ chooses to employ for the salvation of others.
The Catechism goes like this:
We don’t simply attain salvation because God exists. Why? Because that is not how God ordained it. If we did, there would be no hell. No, we must know him, love him and serve him in this world to be happy with him in the next. We have many tools to accomplish this goal and Our Lady is one of these. It’s not because she chose it to be so. Salvation comes from God and God only. God has given us different tools to attain salvation. He has given us different tools to come to know him. We cannot love him and serve him until we know him first. We can keep going around and around on this but I think it’s quite clear from the volumes of quotes from the different saints and Church teachings given that we’d be stupid not to employ a devotion to Mary as one of these, if not even the most important, tool to know how to love God. If you’d like to think otherwise, go ahead. The only problem I have with the title of this thread is that it doesn’t include extraordinary means of salvation. That said, the title itself, is not actually wrong for most.
God is First!, Worship God!, God is not a liar! , Jesus Christ did not suffer in vain! Only through Jesus Christ can we come to the Father!
Yes! we have many instructments, tools as you say, but remember, each soul is a tool and instructment in God’s hands, Enoch, Elijah, Noe, Abraham, King David, Holy Prophets Moses, Issac, Jacob, Job, Jesus Christ, Blessed Virgin Mary, Joseph and the list goes on, on. All the Holy Saints, we also are called to become Holy, we also are tools, instructments in serving God. The “instructment” that God uses is not what is important, --------
The quotes from Saints is not as important as “God’s Word”! Instead immate their lives ( actions) and virtures! And remember Satan appeared as an Angel to Jesus ( but Jesus knew him!). So do you not think that for---- us— Satan------ it is not much, much easier for Satan-------------Worship God----Jesus Christ is the
Word of God! Accept, believe the gospels handed to us from the Apostles. Worhsip God!
We are no longer under bondage, Jesus Christ has set us free indeed. Worship God and serve Him, obey his laws and commandments!
God Bless
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bear06
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planter654
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Uh, did you really mean to say that you disagree with me because it sure looks as if you are agreeing with me.
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bear06
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rinnie
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Maybe i am confused here, the way i understood this post to be and i believe others see it is you are saying that devotion to Mary is necessary for our salvation. Or that the Pope should make it that way. Maybe im way off base maybe im not understanding what you are saying. But if what you are saying we can skip God and just go straight to the Blessed Mother, (which is what i thought it said) than i stick to my original post never. its not going to happen. Only God can give us salvation. Now Mary can pray for us,and help us get to heaven with her prayers, but its still up to God. Yes she is one person i hope is with me, when I die and stays with me, but i know that if God says no its no. If this is completely op i am sorry and i misunderstood it. (it happens some times).
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planter654
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nilofc
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Miles_Mariae
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My, my, planter. Your posts read like one long Protestant sermon, complete with exclamations in funny and rhetorically inappropriate places. I say No! 
Seriously. We have heard much of what you say. Let us now hear from the Saints, Popes, and Doctors of the Church.
Seriously. We have heard much of what you say. Let us now hear from the Saints, Popes, and Doctors of the Church.
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Miles_Mariae
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planter654
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nilofc
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nilofc;3507134:
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is my personal belief?
That is taught by numerous Popes and the Catholic Church.
Yes, you are a catholic but not all catholics are properly catechized.
You quoted some verses from the scriptures proof texting your personal belief. That’s what protestants do, because they refuse to accept the teachings of the church. The pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Maybe you are forgetting that it is the church who gave us the bible. We ought to listen to what the Church says and how it interprets the scripture and embrace what the Church teaches.
Let me just enumerate the various councils and encyclicals and popes who affirmed Extra Ecclesian Nulla Salus, maybe we’d learn from it.
Saint Cyprian of Carthage
Fourth Lateran Council
Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino
Pope Boniface I, Epistle 14.1
Pope Pelagius II (578-590)
Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia
Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991
Pope Innocent III (1198-1216)
Pope Clement VI, Letter Super Quibusdam
Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum
Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter Studio
Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Allocution Singulari Quadem
Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Singulari Quidem
Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore
Pope Pius IX The Syllabus of Errors
Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus
Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane
Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum
Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos
Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Encyclical Humani Generis
Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953):
Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium
You see, I am catholic too fully embracing the teachings and the beliefs of the Catholic Church. I hope you will too.
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nilofc
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Yes you misunderstood it.
The common mistake in thinking that Mary is not necessary, is when we think that Mary’s will is in opposition with God’s will.
All the will of the saints in heaven are in line with the will of God Almigthy. And it’s the will of God that all graces passes through the hands of His most blessed mother. To ignore this, is to ignore the will of God.
How do we know this? This is taught by the Church, the pillar and the bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:15).
If you don’t embrace this teaching, then you are basing your belief upon your own personal interpretation rather than the Church’s teaching throughout history. As lots of Cafeteria Catholics do, who picks and chooses only the things they would like to believe which fits their agenda.
Peace.
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nilofc
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I can sense that those who opposes the teaching of the Church regarding Mary being Co-Redemptrix, Co-Mediator, Advocate has not read any or has not fully gone in depth with the Mariology doctrines of the Church.
The biggest stumbling block for protestants is the Blessed Mother, I think it is too, for poorly catechized catholics. They seem to have similar objections as with our protestant brothers and sisters.
A lot of people lack the proper understanding of the historical significance of the “Gebirah”, the “Theotokos”, the “kecharitomene” - theology.
The biggest stumbling block for protestants is the Blessed Mother, I think it is too, for poorly catechized catholics. They seem to have similar objections as with our protestant brothers and sisters.
A lot of people lack the proper understanding of the historical significance of the “Gebirah”, the “Theotokos”, the “kecharitomene” - theology.
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roguejim
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planter654;3507690:
That is taught by numerous Popes and the Catholic Church.
Yes, you are a catholic but not all catholics are properly catechized.
You quoted some verses from the scriptures proof texting your personal belief. That’s what protestants do, because they refuse to accept the teachings of the church. The pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Maybe you are forgetting that it is the church who gave us the bible. We ought to listen to what the Church says and how it interprets the scripture and embrace what the Church teaches.
Let me just enumerate the various councils and encyclicals and popes who affirmed Extra Ecclesian Nulla Salus, maybe we’d learn from it.
Saint Cyprian of Carthage
Fourth Lateran Council
Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino
Pope Boniface I, Epistle 14.1
Pope Pelagius II (578-590)
Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia
Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991
Pope Innocent III (1198-1216)
Pope Clement VI, Letter Super Quibusdam
Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum
Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter Studio
Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Allocution Singulari Quadem
Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Singulari Quidem
Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore
Pope Pius IX The Syllabus of Errors
Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus
Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane
Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum
Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos
Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Encyclical Humani Generis
Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953):
Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium
You see, I am catholic too fully embracing the teachings and the beliefs of the Catholic Church. I hope you will too.
Thanks for the references. I thought I was going to have to do it!
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planter654
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planter654;3507690:
That is taught by numerous Popes and the Catholic Church.
Yes, you are a catholic but not all catholics are properly catechized.
You quoted some verses from the scriptures proof texting your personal belief. That’s what protestants do, because they refuse to accept the teachings of the church. The pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Maybe you are forgetting that it is the church who gave us the bible. We ought to listen to what the Church says and how it interprets the scripture and embrace what the Church teaches.
Let me just enumerate the various councils and encyclicals and popes who affirmed Extra Ecclesian Nulla Salus, maybe we’d learn from it.
Saint Cyprian of Carthage
Fourth Lateran Council
Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino
Pope Boniface I, Epistle 14.1
Pope Pelagius II (578-590)
Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia
Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991
Pope Innocent III (1198-1216)
Pope Clement VI, Letter Super Quibusdam
Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum
Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter Studio
Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Allocution Singulari Quadem
Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Singulari Quidem
Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore
Pope Pius IX The Syllabus of Errors
Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus
Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane
Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum
Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos
Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Encyclical Humani Generis
Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953):
Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium
You see, I am catholic too fully embracing the teachings and the beliefs of the Catholic Church. I hope you will too.
No, I am not forgetting the CC gave us the Bible. Thank You and God Bless.
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rinnie
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See i agree with everything you are saying to a point, let me explain i have been Catholic all of my life, My dad has done novenas, he just left this world 4 weeks ago and the day before his death is was saying the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, my whole life he said when you are hurting got to the Blessed Mother no one suffered or understands suffering like her, she saw her own son crucified, she will go with you to Jesus, she will pray for you. In Job yes it says God listens to the prayers of the just. I understand what you are saying, i believe every word, BUT and this is the problem you cant see. what you are saying doesnt come to everyone it is called Faith, It is a gift from God. People dont see that, I KNOW if you pray special prayers Mary promises us she will be with us at our time of death. That is what is getting me thru my Fathers death at this time. I know his 82 years of prayers and living the faith got him a pass straight to the top. but like he told me this is a Gift of Grace not all will see. its not given to all. few are chosen, but see my point is that this grace is impossible to explain, and we still have to God, Mary goes with us to God, helps us get there, but to those who dont have the additional grace can still get there, do you see what i am saying, Its like going to court with good representive or going alone. The judge still has the last call. see what i mean?
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planter654
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planter654
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Something came to my mind in what little St. Theresa said. Jesus death, his agony of his crucifixation was witnessed, but no one saw our Dear Mother’s suffering or agony. No one knows if she directly rose to heaven Or she also suffered the agony of death. no one saw this. How true, that is truth! No one knows what took place.!
God Bless
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planter654
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May I ask what about Moses mother who was a Hebrew slave? god spoke directly to Moses for 40 years, did he not? Is God not our Father and Mother, are we not all his children? Does God not have a great plan for salvation for his children? Worship God, obey his laws and commandments. How much have you loved me?
Jesus said: Who is my brother sister mother? Jesus said: " All who believe in God’s word is my brother, sister, mother"! It was a “simple message” “simple answer” to understand. “All who believe in me, God’s word”! Do what He says! If we “truly Love” God then— obey his laws and commandments and leave the rest to God, trust in him.
God Bless Worship God
Jesus said: Who is my brother sister mother? Jesus said: " All who believe in God’s word is my brother, sister, mother"! It was a “simple message” “simple answer” to understand. “All who believe in me, God’s word”! Do what He says! If we “truly Love” God then— obey his laws and commandments and leave the rest to God, trust in him.
God Bless Worship God
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