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Unitas
Guest
Yup. Because it’s not. And no protestant has ever been able to prove otherwise.
No one said it wasn’t authoritative. The Church denies that it is the sole authority on christianity. It was out of Tradition the bible came.
Wanna see division? Look at the fruits of sola scriptura.
You mean the men chosen by God to lead His Church? I’d rather have them than someone’s half-baked private interpretation to base truth on.
The sola scripturalist is saying I divide… cute. Anyone else see the screaming irony?
What you’re supporting here is exactly why protestantism keeps fracturing into more and more sects.
Oh I get it. I must not read the bible because if I did, I’d agree with you, right? There couldn’t possibly be differing interpretations than your own… /sarcasm off
The Church is the Body Of Christ, a little different than what you’re making it out to be. And that Church does indeed have the authority to teach. Look at how many times Paul is teaching Timothy and Titus. Why didn’t he just hand them a bible and be done with it? Why didn’t Jesus jsut drop off a book? If no one but Jesus can teach, why didn’t Jesus write anything?
I’d recommend reading all the books of Paul. I think you skipped over those.
The Church is visible, has an heirarchy, is the pillar and ground of the truth, has the God-given authority to settle disputes over correct and incorrect doctrine, and cannot teach error, and has the perpetual guidance of Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.
Does your reading comprehension have all that? No? Neither does mine. So then we mustn’t trust what we may think is the “clear meaning” of scripture to be the absolute truth. We can be wrong.
You say we put fallen men spiritually over us, when we should put Jesus there, like you. But you do the same thing. You put yourself there by holding your private interpretation as infallible.
And since you have yet to prove sola scriptura, there’s no reason I should entertain any more of your anti-Mary arguments because they are based on a false premise.
Oh and BTW, this is a thread on if or not the intercession of Mary is necessary for salvation. So if you want to turn this into a debate on sola scriptura, you should probably open a thread on the apologetics forum and take it there.
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roguejim
Guest
Being the original poster, I want to thank the “few” Catholics who have defended the Mother of God here. Most Catholics shun Her. Many plainly insult Her. These Prots never loved Her. With that I will leave a few additional quotes.
Pax Christi. Pax Maria.
“With reason did the Most Holy Virgin predict that all generations would call her blessed, for all the Elect obtain eternal salvation throught the means of Mary.”
ST IDELPHONSUS
“Christ entrusted to His Mother’s maternal care the mission of making the Church a single family. Yes, in Mary we have the bond of communion for all of the us who, through Faith and Baptism, are disciples and brothers of Jesus.”
POPE JOHN PAUL II
“In the multitude of the Elect she shall have praise, and among the blessed she shall be blessed.”
ECCLESIASTICUS 24:4
“O Mary, thou art blessed among women, for thou hast brought forth life for both men and women!”
ST AUGUSTINE
“Bearing in her womb the Savior, Mary can also be said to have borne all those whose life the Savior’s life enshrined. All of us, then, as many as are knit to Christ, have come forth from Mary’s womb: one Body, as it were, knit together with its Head.”
POPE ST PIUS X
“Mary is that Happy Ark, in which those who take refuge will never suffer the shipwreck of eternal perdition.”
ST BERNARD
“Souls protected by Mary, and on whom she casts her eyes, are necessarily justified and saved. Just as it is impossible that they be saved from whom Mary turns away her eyes of mercy, so it is certain that they who are loved by Mary, and for whom she intercedes, will obtain justification and eternal life.”
ST ANTONINUS
“We believe that Mary opens the abyss of God’s mercy to whomever she wills, when she wills, and as she wills; so that there is no sinner, however great, who is lost if Mary protects him.”
ST BONAVENTURE
“O Mother of God! If I place my confidence in thee, I shall be saved; if I am under thy protection, I have nothing to fear; for being thy client is a certainty of salvation which God grants only to those whom He intends to save.”
ST JOHN DAMASCENE
“Being thy servant, O Mary, is a surety of salvation which God grants solely to those He will save.”
ST ANDREW OF CRETE
“O Blessed Mary, whoever loves you, honors God; whoever serves you, pleases God; whoever invokes your holy name, with a pure heart, will infallibly receive the object of his petition.”
ST BERNARD
“O admirable Mother of God! How many sins have I committed for which thou hast obtained pardon for me, and how many others would I have committed if thou hadst not preserved me? How often have I seen myself on the brink of Hell in obvious danger of falling into it but for thy most benign hand which saved me? Alas! Without thee, my dearest and all-good Mother, where should I be today? I should be in the fiery furnace of Hell!”
ST JOHN EUDES
“Would that everyone might know that I would be damned already were it not for Mary!”
ST LOUIS MARIE DE MONTFORT
Pax Christi. Pax Maria.
“With reason did the Most Holy Virgin predict that all generations would call her blessed, for all the Elect obtain eternal salvation throught the means of Mary.”
ST IDELPHONSUS
“Christ entrusted to His Mother’s maternal care the mission of making the Church a single family. Yes, in Mary we have the bond of communion for all of the us who, through Faith and Baptism, are disciples and brothers of Jesus.”
POPE JOHN PAUL II
“In the multitude of the Elect she shall have praise, and among the blessed she shall be blessed.”
ECCLESIASTICUS 24:4
“O Mary, thou art blessed among women, for thou hast brought forth life for both men and women!”
ST AUGUSTINE
“Bearing in her womb the Savior, Mary can also be said to have borne all those whose life the Savior’s life enshrined. All of us, then, as many as are knit to Christ, have come forth from Mary’s womb: one Body, as it were, knit together with its Head.”
POPE ST PIUS X
“Mary is that Happy Ark, in which those who take refuge will never suffer the shipwreck of eternal perdition.”
ST BERNARD
“Souls protected by Mary, and on whom she casts her eyes, are necessarily justified and saved. Just as it is impossible that they be saved from whom Mary turns away her eyes of mercy, so it is certain that they who are loved by Mary, and for whom she intercedes, will obtain justification and eternal life.”
ST ANTONINUS
“We believe that Mary opens the abyss of God’s mercy to whomever she wills, when she wills, and as she wills; so that there is no sinner, however great, who is lost if Mary protects him.”
ST BONAVENTURE
“O Mother of God! If I place my confidence in thee, I shall be saved; if I am under thy protection, I have nothing to fear; for being thy client is a certainty of salvation which God grants only to those whom He intends to save.”
ST JOHN DAMASCENE
“Being thy servant, O Mary, is a surety of salvation which God grants solely to those He will save.”
ST ANDREW OF CRETE
“O Blessed Mary, whoever loves you, honors God; whoever serves you, pleases God; whoever invokes your holy name, with a pure heart, will infallibly receive the object of his petition.”
ST BERNARD
“O admirable Mother of God! How many sins have I committed for which thou hast obtained pardon for me, and how many others would I have committed if thou hadst not preserved me? How often have I seen myself on the brink of Hell in obvious danger of falling into it but for thy most benign hand which saved me? Alas! Without thee, my dearest and all-good Mother, where should I be today? I should be in the fiery furnace of Hell!”
ST JOHN EUDES
“Would that everyone might know that I would be damned already were it not for Mary!”
ST LOUIS MARIE DE MONTFORT
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ruslan
Guest
I believe in Jesus for salvation, not His mother. I love and respect Mary -but, I have never believed devotion to her was necessary for my salvation. :twocents:
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Curious_One
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Unitas / Bear06 etc…thanks for your comments, as am not a ‘Protestant’ I can’t comment on their behalf, though I am sure there are some around in these forums that can…All I know is that God Himself is the Head of the Church both visible and invisible…that when you become a ‘Christian’ i.e. adopted into God’s family at the point of belief, you are guaranteed your Salvation.
God Himself said:
“Stop grumbling among yourselves. No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘they will all be taught by God’. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me”
God also said: “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own, He will speak only what He hears, and will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you”
In all this God did not mention the church visible or invisible. God the Father teaches via God the Son imparted and made certain by God the Holy Spirit indwelling the physical body of the regenerated believer. God’s word alone is infallible, men may guide us through the mine field of false teaching, signs and wonders by pointing to God’s word and church history past and present - but only God alone can interpret and make certain the truth of His word not man. I know I can rely 100% or more if it were possible on every word that emanates from the mouth of God as written in Scripture or given verbally (by Prophesy) once tested against Scripture.
I venture no interpretation of my own, for like all mankind I too am fallible and prone to my own sinful nature. That is why God’s word imparted and enlightened by His Spirit alone can, stand alone and above all things…“For I shall exalt my word above all things” Blessing…
Bear 06…Have you tried reading johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com? He oulines the teaching on the Blessed Virgin Mary from whence I got my quotes…And no…I am not a Roman Catholic…but I am not unaquainted with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Religion
God Himself said:
“Stop grumbling among yourselves. No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘they will all be taught by God’. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me”
God also said: “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own, He will speak only what He hears, and will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you”
In all this God did not mention the church visible or invisible. God the Father teaches via God the Son imparted and made certain by God the Holy Spirit indwelling the physical body of the regenerated believer. God’s word alone is infallible, men may guide us through the mine field of false teaching, signs and wonders by pointing to God’s word and church history past and present - but only God alone can interpret and make certain the truth of His word not man. I know I can rely 100% or more if it were possible on every word that emanates from the mouth of God as written in Scripture or given verbally (by Prophesy) once tested against Scripture.
I venture no interpretation of my own, for like all mankind I too am fallible and prone to my own sinful nature. That is why God’s word imparted and enlightened by His Spirit alone can, stand alone and above all things…“For I shall exalt my word above all things” Blessing…
Bear 06…Have you tried reading johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com? He oulines the teaching on the Blessed Virgin Mary from whence I got my quotes…And no…I am not a Roman Catholic…but I am not unaquainted with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Religion
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Unitas
Guest
Because you’re not Catholic by definition you are protestant.Unitas / Bear06 etc…thanks for your comments, as am not a ‘Protestant’ I can’t comment on their behalf, though I am sure there are some around in these forums that can…All I know is that God Himself is the Head of the Church both visible and invisible…that when you become a ‘Christian’ i.e. adopted into God’s family at the point of belief, you are guaranteed your Salvation.
God Himself said:
“Stop grumbling among yourselves. No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘they will all be taught by God’. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me”
God also said: “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own, He will speak only what He hears, and will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you”
In all this God did not mention the church visible or invisible. God the Father teaches via God the Son imparted and made certain by God the Holy Spirit indwelling the physical body of the regenerated believer. God’s word alone is infallible, men may guide us through the mine field of false teaching, signs and wonders by pointing to God’s word and church history past and present - but only God alone can interpret and make certain the truth of His word not man. I know I can rely 100% or more if it were possible on every word that emanates from the mouth of God as written in Scripture or given verbally (by Prophesy) once tested against Scripture.
I venture no interpretation of my own, for like all mankind I too am fallible and prone to my own sinful nature. That is why God’s word imparted and enlightened by His Spirit alone can, stand alone and above all things…“For I shall exalt my word above all things” Blessing…
Bear 06…Have you tried reading johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com? He oulines the teaching on the Blessed Virgin Mary from whence I got my quotes…And no…I am not a Roman Catholic…but I am not unaquainted with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Religion
1 Timothy 3:15
Matthew 16:18-19
Matthew 18:17
1 Peter 1:20
Your comments have nothing to do with the topic of the thread and neither are they biblical.
To bring this back on track, what about these words from Pope St. Pius X:
AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM said:
It looks from this that we cannot go without the assistance of the Mother of God.
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Curious_One
Guest
Unitas…
I though you were more well versed than that…and that you knew the origins of the word Protestant and that they are in the main the Anglo Catholic branch of the Roman Catholic Religion…they are indeed the offspring of Roman Catholicism albeit a wayward child…I never was nor ever will be a Protestant…I am however an adopted son of the living God by His action alone…a member of His family, a Royal Priest of a Holy Nation.
I owe nothing to Roman Catholicism in whatever guise it may present itself…Salvation is in Christ alone, by Christ alone…Mary ‘blessed though she may be’ has no power to save or to persuade God to save us…only Christ can save us through His shed blood…for a while I though you knew your scripture!! I am shocked to find such reliance on human error, you really ought to stick to the Word of God
I though you were more well versed than that…and that you knew the origins of the word Protestant and that they are in the main the Anglo Catholic branch of the Roman Catholic Religion…they are indeed the offspring of Roman Catholicism albeit a wayward child…I never was nor ever will be a Protestant…I am however an adopted son of the living God by His action alone…a member of His family, a Royal Priest of a Holy Nation.I owe nothing to Roman Catholicism in whatever guise it may present itself…Salvation is in Christ alone, by Christ alone…Mary ‘blessed though she may be’ has no power to save or to persuade God to save us…only Christ can save us through His shed blood…for a while I though you knew your scripture!! I am shocked to find such reliance on human error, you really ought to stick to the Word of God
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bear06
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OK, now that I’m a little clearer on where you are coming from this might go a little easier.
Where in the bible does it say that we are guaranteed salvation from the point of belief? Again that’s now biblical. Matthew says:
It is quite possible to lose salvation through our lack of cooperation with it.
He also goes onto say
This track contains much more from the bible on the topic.
catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
You aren’t really quoting any sources for your belief. It might help the conversation if you did so.
YOu seem to think that Christ left us here to our own devises. This would be impossible because we’d all end up believing something different. Christ left us someone to authentically interpret the Scriptures in order to guard us from error.I venture no interpretation of my own, for like all mankind I too am fallible and prone to my own sinful nature. That is why God’s word imparted and enlightened by His Spirit alone can, stand alone and above all things…“For I shall exalt my word above all things” Blessing…
Bear 06…Have you tried reading johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com? He oulines the teaching on the Blessed Virgin Mary from whence I got my quotes…And no…I am not a Roman Catholic…but I am not unaquainted with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Religion
No, I’m not familiar with him. That said, I am quite familiar with the Church teaching on salvation and this very website does a nice job of putting them forth.
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Miles_Mariae
Guest
Rest assured, you have no need to put forth your own interpretations. Holy Mother Church tells you exactly what the Scripture means.I venture no interpretation of my own, for like all mankind I too am fallible and prone to my own sinful nature. That is why God’s word imparted and enlightened by His Spirit alone can, stand alone and above all things…“For I shall exalt my word above all things” Blessing…
I’d put some random thumbs up emoticons into my post for no reason other than to inject a condescending tone, but this last paragraph should suffice for that purpose as well as to point out what an annoying habit that is.
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Mary_ann_R
Guest
Unitas…
Our Lady is more persuavise than you think. Just listen to what this Priest has to say!I owe nothing to Roman Catholicism in whatever guise it may present itself…Salvation is in Christ alone, by Christ alone…Mary ‘blessed though she may be’ has no power to save or to persuade God to save us…only Christ can save us through His shed blood…for a while I though you knew your scripture!! I am shocked to find such reliance on human error, you really ought to stick to the Word of God
Scroll down to the bottom of the page and and click on the player that works for you and you can listen to the Priest tell it in his own words.
frtommylane.com/homilies/year_c/lent3.htm
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bear06
Guest
Again, this is not Biblical. One only need to look to John 2 for that. As we’ve already covered to death in this thread. Christ is the source of salvation. Mary is the way to Jesus. Why? You’d have to read the rest of the thread for that one. BTW, we are sticking to the Word of God. What we aren’t sticking to is the protestant or non-Catholic (if you prefer) interpretation of it. Since it is truth there can only be one correct interpretation and we believe that this correct interpretation is guaranteed to Peter and his successors.Mary ‘blessed though she may be’ has no power to save or **to persuade God **to save us…only Christ can save us through His shed blood…for a while I though you knew your scripture!! I am shocked to find such reliance on human error, you really ought to stick to the Word of God
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Unitas
Guest
Non-Catholic = protestant. I can’t make it any clearer.Unitas…
I owe nothing to Roman Catholicism in whatever guise it may present itself…Salvation is in Christ alone, by Christ alone…Mary ‘blessed though she may be’ has no power to save or to persuade God to save us…only Christ can save us through His shed blood…for a while I though you knew your scripture!! I am shocked to find such reliance on human error, you really ought to stick to the Word of God
Since your other arguments are based on willful ignorance, a dose of arrogance, and false doctrines of men, I don’t think there’s really a need to respond to them. No point in discussing points based on false premises. You haven’t engaged any of our points and show an obvious refusal to even examine the premises you assume to be true. So I see no purpose in trying to engage your arguments when you refuse to engage ours. That tells me you’re just here to preach and not to discuss.
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Miles_Mariae
Guest
Seriously, the whole routine of coming on here and posting the equivalent of Protestant sermons is a very tired routine by now.
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nilofc
Guest
This statement defeats itself.
The Catholic Church is the body of Christ.
Hint: Road to Damascus…“Why are you persecuting me Paul?”
The Catholic Church is the body of Christ.
The Catholic Church is the body of Christ.
The Catholic Church is the body of Christ.
(They say that if you repeat something three times, then the person will get it.)
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Curious_One
Guest
Nilofc…that’s a curious thought where did you get it from…the body of Christ existed for centuries (from before the dawn of creation through to the present day and on into eternity) before the Roman Catholic Religion was ever though off let alone existed…check your own history starting 4th - 8th - 12 centuries…prior to the 4th century Roman Catholicism did not exist…The body of Christ both visible and invisible…visible by the physical presence of an adopted son of God…and invisible by Christ in the believer and the believer in Christ…the Church is not an institution nor is it and organisation…there is no Church outside of Jesus the Christ for Jesus is the Church and its only Head in Heaven and on Earth…
And before you say it…yes there was a body of belivers in Rome who could be referred to as the ‘church’, but they were not the Roman Catholic Religion, they were ‘Christians’ and Rome did not dominate Chrisendom until after the so called conversion of Constantine at which point the then Bishop of Rome entered into an unholy alliance with Constantine (choosing power on earth rather than recieving power from heaven), they became appostate to the real faith and sowed the seeds of the Roman Catholic Religion that flowered into the Roman Catholic ‘church’… the rest is history as they say…
And before you say it…yes there was a body of belivers in Rome who could be referred to as the ‘church’, but they were not the Roman Catholic Religion, they were ‘Christians’ and Rome did not dominate Chrisendom until after the so called conversion of Constantine at which point the then Bishop of Rome entered into an unholy alliance with Constantine (choosing power on earth rather than recieving power from heaven), they became appostate to the real faith and sowed the seeds of the Roman Catholic Religion that flowered into the Roman Catholic ‘church’… the rest is history as they say…
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roguejim
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Here you go Sherlock:Nilofc…that’s a curious thought where did you get it from…the body of Christ existed for centuries (from before the dawn of creation through to the present day and on into eternity) before the Roman Catholic Religion was ever though off let alone existed…check your own history starting 4th - 8th - 12 centuries…prior to the 4th century Roman Catholicism did not exist…The body of Christ both visible and invisible…visible by the physical presence of an adopted son of God…and invisible by Christ in the believer and the believer in Christ…the Church is not an institution nor is it and organisation…there is no Church outside of Jesus the Christ for Jesus is the Church and its only Head in Heaven and on Earth…
And before you say it…yes there was a body of belivers in Rome who could be referred to as the ‘church’, but they were not the Roman Catholic Religion, they were ‘Christians’ and Rome did not dominate Chrisendom until after the so called conversion of Constantine at which point the then Bishop of Rome entered into an unholy alliance with Constantine (choosing power on earth rather than recieving power from heaven), they became appostate to the real faith and sowed the seeds of the Roman Catholic Religion that flowered into the Roman Catholic ‘church’… the rest is history as they say…
“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. The “People of God” and the “Mystical Body of Christ” are one and the same thing, both of them designating the Church. Membership in the Church requires conditions other than Baptism alone; it requires identical faith and unity of communion, so that by means of the Catholic Church alone, which is the unrestricted instrument of salvation, is it possible to obtain the fulness of the means to salvation. Indeed, the Church is both a sure and an exclusive means of attaining salvation. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation, for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to no one: those who are enemies to unity do not participate in the charity of Divine Life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The entrance to salvation is open to no one outside the Church!”
POPE PAUL VI
“Those who acknowledge Christ must acknowledge Him completely and entirely. The Head is the only-begotten Son of God; the Body is His Church. No one can in any way be counted among the children of God unless they take Jesus Christ as their Brother and, at the same time, the Church as their Mother. Christianity is, in fact, incarnate in the Catholic Church; it is identified with that perfect spiritual society which is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ and has for its visible head the Roman Pontiff. Consequently, all who wish to reach salvation outside the Church are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a futile effort. This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it upon your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.”
POPE LEO XIII
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Curious_One
Guest
rougejim…Thanks for your contribution…as I don’t believe in the Pope or the Roman Catholic Religion… in all things I prefer to embrace the Word of God …if you can prove your case by scripture I may listen…as a member of God’s houseold,the only men I take note of is the Apostles and the Prophets who built the foundation with Christ as the cornerstone, which together with myself and other adopted sons as the living stones go make up the dwelling place of God where he lives by His Spirit…
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nilofc
Guest
We’ll prove it to you…only if you can disprove that the Bible is compiled and defined as inspired by the Catholic Church.
The books of the Bible is collected and defined as the inspired word of God by a synod of Catholic Bishops…and not a synod of Protestant Pastors.
So logically, if you don’t accept the Roman Catholic authority then it must follow that you don’t also accept the bible as inspired. It can’t be both… otherwise you’d be defeating your own argument.
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rinnie
Guest
But how can you go by the Apostles? Who was Peter an Apostle the First Pope. And deny the Pope than. Peter handed the title down. Peter was the first appointed, Jesus left him in charge, follow the generations you will track the Pope. And what is the Catholic Religion if not the Word of God. What more scripture do you need, Peter is handed the keys, lead my sheep, You are the rock? what more scripture can we give you. That God hasnt already?rougejim…Thanks for your contribution…as I don’t believe in the Pope or the Roman Catholic Religion… in all things I prefer to embrace the Word of God …if you can prove your case by scripture I may listen…as a member of God’s houseold,the only men I take note of is the Apostles and the Prophets who built the foundation with Christ as the cornerstone, which together with myself and other adopted sons as the living stones go make up the dwelling place of God where he lives by His Spirit…
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Michael96
Guest
I have to say I really hope a fifth Dogma is not defined. I simply don’t believe graces flow through Mary to us.
While I respect that some people feel strongly on this, and I respect your beliefs, I do think the Church should realise that some of us wouldn’t accept the proposed fifth Dogma. We would simply have to ignore it or leave the Church (which for me would mean joining either the Orthodox or high Anglican churches).
In peace +
While I respect that some people feel strongly on this, and I respect your beliefs, I do think the Church should realise that some of us wouldn’t accept the proposed fifth Dogma. We would simply have to ignore it or leave the Church (which for me would mean joining either the Orthodox or high Anglican churches).
In peace +
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