Did animals die before sin?

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Bookcat said:
Animals ate animals.

Big ones ate small ones…
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Gen 1 29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

God designates plants for food to both humans and animals here. The direction to eat meat is first mentioned in Gen 9…

Genesis 9.1-5 *Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. *

There’s a good case for believing that the food chain as we know it, began here in the ultimate service of the human diet.
 
Bookcat said:
Yes …and creation awaits the revelation of the sons of God…

Such though does not mean that animals did not die before the fall of man or that the various destructive forces (with the constructive forces) which are part of the order of the universe for the good of the whole were not taking place. The universe is a rather complicated arrangement.

Death entered for man at the fall.
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From a Orthodox Church Perspective i hear Adam and Eve was created ‘‘Mortal’’ and they had to eat from the tree of life to live forever.
Also i hear that sex and reproduction was the consequence result of the fall.

Is this Also the Roman Catholic Church view ?
 
irenaeuslyons said:
The first recorded death of an animal was when God performed the first sacrifice in the garden of Eden to clothe Adam and Eve in animal skins.

credobiblestudy.com/roman/en/catholic-bible-douay-rheims-ot-book-genesis-gen-chapter-3/1/3/21

In one sense, this is fitting because it was performed by God in the Garden of Eden, and it was to cover our sin, and it prefigured every other sacrifice in salvation history including the last sacrifice of God Himself.

However, to answer your question, it only applies to humans made in the image of God. Animals cannot sin. As to natural or spiritual death, it depends on the usage of spiritual. You cannot baptize an animal with any efficacy. However, in another sense, the spirit is the principle of life, but for animals it is not eternal life, from communion with the eternal Spirit.
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Scripture does Show animals have a Spirit/Soul. That Animals will be with us in the New earth new heavenly Jerusalem come down to new earth. Will Animals live forever then ?

We humans do bond with our animals and it is rather upsetting when they pass on. I thought there will be no more tears in the New Kingdom.
 
shaky said:
From a Orthodox Church Perspective i hear Adam and Eve was created ‘‘Mortal’’ and they had to eat from the tree of life to live forever.
Also i hear that sex and reproduction was the consequence result of the fall.

Is this Also the Roman Catholic Church view ?
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Sex and reproduction would have occurred anyway. Adam and Eve were created in a state of perfect natural happiness and health, so they were immortal. It is, however true that Adam and Eve would have needed to make an act of the will choosing God in order to experience the beatific vision (supernatural happiness), unfortunately they made the opposite decision.
shaky said:
Scripture does Show animals have a Spirit/Soul. That Animals will be with us in the New earth new heavenly Jerusalem come down to new earth. Will Animals live forever then ?

We humans do bond with our animals and it is rather upsetting when they pass on. I thought there will be no more tears in the New Kingdom.
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The soul is the principle of physical life. Spirit is the component of man which deals with reason and will, whereas passions (emotions) and physical senses are dealt with by the material part of man ( the brain in the case of emotions). Animals do not have a Spirit, as they are incapable of reason, but they do have a soul (a material soul), whereas humans have a spiritual immortal soul. Certainly suffering and death (when experienced by a sensing being) are physical evils that cannot occur in a perfect world, but that doesn’t mean that dead animals will necessarily be ressurected, and we know that animals are incapable of experiencing supernatural happiness (or any form of spiritual joy).
 
I just can’t understand why some believe bread fell from heaven or Jesus walked on water but think that it is impossible for animals to have been vegetarian. I cannot understand how people believe one scientifically impossible belief and not another.

These boards mystify me.
 
Originally Posted by devoutchristian forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Suffering and death by a sensing being is a physical evil.
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bitznbitez said:
In this I agree, and this has been something I ponder. But I also have come to see that sin was in the Universe and in the Earth before Eve ate the forbidden fruit. The Devil had fallen from heaven.

The precise implications I’m still pondering and will for some time.
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It is so good to see –2013 Tiber Swim Team 👍

Having been away from this topic, hopefully I can address it from a fresh perspective.

The first thing I wonder is – Before the Fall, was suffering automatically connected with the death of material world animals? There had to be some kind of suffering in the animal world, for example suffering from hunger, which motivated animals to migrate. I know that there are still some older animals that sense death coming and thus wander off in the wild to find a comfortable place to die. This was the case with my daughter’s faithful dog. Obviously, a bear could have attacked the dog. Yet, no such corpse was found so it was reasonable that the dog had died somewhere on its own. Being attacked by a bear would cause suffering. Dying naturally may not include suffering.

Since there were no smart phones in the world before Adam, the only record of pre-history animals would be fossil pieces which would be subject to contemporary theories. Useless piece of information. One of my sons sent me an e-mail message on his not-so-smart phone.😛

What I am seeing, after being away, is that there really is no black or white conclusion as to what originally happened to sensing animals at death in the material world before Adam.
 
The first thing I wonder is – Before the Fall, was suffering automatically connected with the death of material world animals?
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Before the fall if there was no death then life as we now no it would be impossible. Thus the transformation from pre fall to post fall may be described as pre fall being another place/time/who knows what. I mean by this that for plants to live there must be death.

Was it simply a spiritual death with an increase in suffering that was the result ?

Was the garden simply an island in a realm corrupted already ?

I don’t know. I truly don’t.

I grew up as a literal 7 day creationist.

Its after the Easter Vigil. My interest in controversy has truly waned.

Perhaps I’ll just keep going to church, having communion and praying. Others smarter than me can resolve it all.
 
bitznbitez said:
Before the fall if there was no death then life as we now no it would be impossible. Thus the transformation from pre fall to post fall may be described as pre fall being another place/time/who knows what. I mean by this that for plants to live there must be death.

Was it simply a spiritual death with an increase in suffering that was the result ?

Was the garden simply an island in a realm corrupted already ?

I don’t know. I truly don’t.

I grew up as a literal 7 day creationist.

Its after the Easter Vigil. My interest in controversy has truly waned.

Perhaps I’ll just keep going to church, having communion and praying. Others smarter than me can resolve it all.
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Amen
 
shaky said:
Scripture does Show animals have a Spirit/Soul. That Animals will be with us in the New earth new heavenly Jerusalem come down to new earth. Will Animals live forever then ?

We humans do bond with our animals and it is rather upsetting when they pass on. I thought there will be no more tears in the New Kingdom.
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Animals do not have immortal souls.

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecclesiastes 3:21)
 
I thought this could add something to the question. St Thomas Aquinas from Summa Theologica…

*"According to the Divine ordinance the life of animals and plants is preserved not for themselves but for man. Hence, as Augustine says (De Civ. Dei i, 20), ‘by a most just ordinance of the Creator, both their life and their death are subject to our use.’

"Dumb animals and plants are devoid of the life of reason whereby to set themselves in motion; they are moved, as it were by another, by a kind of natural impulse, a sign of which is that they are naturally enslaved and accommodated to the uses of others… “*

This could go towards the view that animals had no need to die before the fall when they became a source of food and clothing for humans.
 
LongingSoul said:
I thought this could add something to the question. St Thomas Aquinas from Summa Theologica…

"According to the Divine ordinance the life of animals and plants is preserved not for themselves but for man. Hence, as Augustine says (De Civ. Dei i, 20), 'by a most just ordinance of the Creator, both their life and their death are subject to our use.’

"Dumb animals and plants are devoid of the life of reason whereby to set themselves in motion; they are moved, as it were by another, by a kind of natural impulse, a sign of which is that they are naturally enslaved and accommodated to the uses of others… “

This could go towards the view that animals had no need to die before the fall when they became a source of food and clothing for humans.
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Such refers to their use by us. And the fact that they are not well persons. Not men.

Not as to if they could die before the fall.

Death entered – *for man *-- at the fall.
 
The only thing that changed when Adam and Eve sinned and fell from grace was, that the animals no longer saw them in harmony with nature and with them.

Animals now feared them and today fear us. Which is why some animals either attack or run away from us.

Maybe they percieve our sinful nature as not in harmony with the goodness of God.
 
God created a world in-- -]“in stat via”/-]-- in statu viae-- in a state of being on the way. (hopefully my Latin professor was not reading…well nevermind he would not be surprised.)

In a state of journeying towards its perfection. This involves the creation of certain creatures as well as their departure (via death and even extinction). It involves both constructive forces as well as destructive forces.
 
LongingSoul said:
I thought this could add something to the question. St Thomas Aquinas from Summa Theologica…

"According to the Divine ordinance the life of animals and plants is preserved not for themselves but for man. Hence, as Augustine says (De Civ. Dei i, 20), 'by a most just ordinance of the Creator, both their life and their death are subject to our use.’

"Dumb animals and plants are devoid of the life of reason whereby to set themselves in motion; they are moved, as it were by another, by a kind of natural impulse, a sign of which is that they are naturally enslaved and accommodated to the uses of others… “

This could go towards the view that animals had no need to die before the fall when they became a source of food and clothing for humans.
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Good point.
 
A quote from Catholic Answers (since we are here :))

“Scripture is talking about human death. Nowhere does it suggest the notion that the animals were created to be immortal. Only humans were given immortal souls. When death entered creation as the result of the fall, it was human death… --Fr. Vincent Serpa O.P.”
 
"However our question today is: in the age of science and technology does speaking of creation still make sense? How should we understand the narratives in Genesis? The Bible does not intend to be a natural science manual; rather, it wishes to make the authentic and profound truth of things understood. The fundamental truth that the accounts of Genesis reveal to us is that the world is not a collection of forces that clash with each other; it has its origin and its permanence in the Logos, in God’s eternal Reason which continues to sustain the universe.

A plan of the world exists which is conceived by this Reason, by the Creator Spirit. To believe that this is the foundation of all things illuminates every aspect of existence and gives us the courage to face the adventure of life with trust and hope. Therefore, Scripture tells us that the origin of being, of the world, our own origin is not in the irrational or in need, but rather in reason and love and freedom. Consequently, there is this alternative: either the priority of the irrational, of necessity, or the priority of reason, of freedom, of love. We believe in the latter hypothesis."

~ Pope Benedict XVI 6 February 2013
 
I still have no clue why believe in some scientifically impossible events and not others. Logically, if methodological naturalism is false why is cosmology based on it true? Is it just a fear being called a fundamentalist?
 
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